April 25, 2022 6:40 am at 6:40 am #2079591
יכול מראש חודש
תלומד לומר ביום ההוא אי ביום ההוא יוכל מבעוד יום ת”ל בעבור זה לא אמרתי אלא בשעה שמצה ומרור מונחים לפניך
How do we know that זה refers to matza & marror, and means by night, maybe it refers to the קרבן פסח and זה applies already by day.
You could say that the parsha (shemos 13) makes no mention of the korban pesach, but hey, there is no mention of Marror either.
[And באמת, Rashi there says: בעבור שאקיים מצותיו, כגון פסח מצה ומרור הללו He clearly mentions the pesach too!!??]April 25, 2022 9:29 am at 9:29 am #2079655ChadGadyaParticipant
It’s a יתור. If it would only say בעבור זה perhaps we could understand that it refers to the time of קרבן פסח during the day. But it already says ביום ההוא from which we could know that. The extra בעבור זה after already saying ביום ההוא comes to teach us that the time being referred is different from that which we could have understood from either on its own.April 25, 2022 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2079630
Obviously at the time of the Beis Hamikdash it included Pesach also eaten with the matzah and marror but what about currently when the telling of Yetzias Mitzraim is also a mitzva? There is a mashal of telling it at the time of Meshiach from the Migdal Eider Haggadah. There was a poor man who had stomach problems but anyway it did not bother him as he could not afford any more than what he was able to eat. A doctor came and cured him. However, he could not show true appreciation as he desired more but could not afford it. When he became rich, that is when he was able to show the appreciation. Currently, as still being galus, we cannot show true hakoras hatov for yetzias mitzraim but when we will be redeemed, we will truly appreciated.April 25, 2022 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2079662Leiby WasserParticipant
I have heard a suggestion from a Talmid Chacham that the reference to matzah is in the word “ba’avur”. As the posuk in Yehoshua says “Vayochlu mei’avur ha’aretz”, “avur” meaning grain. Similarly “Ba’avur zeh” could mean “because of this grain”, i.e. this matzah.April 25, 2022 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2079661
The Ksav Sofer explains the use of בעבור זה both for the rasha and the one not asking. Be careful when the child is young and he can not ask to bring him up properly in order not to become a rasha.April 25, 2022 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2079689
Chad Gadya: Thank you very much. It sounds very good, in fact I think i once saw your peshat in one of the Rishonim, (maybe the Ritvo) in the Baalei Tosafos Hagada, i cannot remember what bothered me, but i imagine it was the fact that Rashi mentions Pesach,, and according to the drosho, he should have omitted it. However, the truth is that Rashi Al Hatorah is not trying to explain the drosho of יכול מראש חודש, so according to the poshut peshat, he rightfully mentions pesach as well.
Leiby Wasser: I really like your peshat, and if you have the liberty to say which talmid chochom, i’d appreciate it.
I searched your peshat on Otzar Hachochma to see if anyone says it, could not find, but at the same time I DID find in the ראב”ן peshat,
בעבור זה כלומר בעבור שעות שהן י”ב כמנין זה בלילה
It seems to be that the number 12 is minimising the time limit to 12 hours, but that would only fit if he holds that mitzvos הלילה are even after חצות
Switching to לשון הקודש
כל כך קשה להקליד באנגלית
אבל ראיתי בהערות של המהדיר, שפירש ככה – בעבור זה, לאחר שעברו י”ב שעות (של י”ד ניסן), בלילה, דהיינו בתחילת הלילה.
ולפי דבריו א”ש אפילו למ”ד שחייב לאכול מצה ולספר ביצי”מ עד חצותApril 25, 2022 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2079670
The pasuk following it to put tefillin on applies currently, so does the pasuk before when korban Pesach is not available. The Kafter Voferach brings from Rav Chaim from Paris that he wanted to sacrifice a korban Pesach currently at the turn of the Hebrew millennium and the Chasam Sofer with Rebbi Akiva Eiger discuss how to overcome the hindrances. He believed that there was a chiyuv currently just that we cannot fulfil it. So does the Minchas Chinuch who questions if the Beis Hamikdash would be rebuilt between the first Pesach and the second, will we have to bring a Korban Pesach on Pesach Sheni?April 25, 2022 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #2079757Avram in MDParticipant
“How do we know that זה refers to matza & marror, and means by night, maybe it refers to the קרבן פסח and זה applies already by day.”
I’m not sure I understand your question. The korban pesach is slaughtered during the day on the 14th of Nissan, but it is eaten by night with matzos and maror. So wouldn’t the time that זה refers to be night by the korban pesach as much as with matzos and maror?April 25, 2022 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #2079777commonsaychelParticipant
This bother you? BH I so happy that you have no other worries!April 25, 2022 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #20797821a2b3cParticipant
The possuk is saying that Hashem took us out of mitzrayim because of “this”, i.e. to do this. We know that Hashem took us out of Mitzrayim to do all the mitzvos of Pesach, including matzah and maror, not just the korban pesach. So therefore it must be referring to night, when we keep all these mitzvos, and not the day, when we are only doing one of them.April 25, 2022 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #2079789
Unfortunately, i have other worries as well, but most of them cannot be resolved by posting in the CR.
The only thing you could possibly help me with is the financial issues I am currently dealing with. If you sincerely want to help I am sure that the Mods will allow me to post a Chessed Fund link and you can donate that way. Thanx a mill for your concern!April 25, 2022 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #2079790
Avram in MD:
The Torah just states ‘זה” this is ambiguous and could refer to anything. There is no mention of these three mitzvos in particular. All we can derive is that there is some tangible mitzva to which one could point. The question therefore is, which mitzva is the torah refering to. (The poshut peshat, when learning Chumash, is that Hashem took us out to keep ALL the mitzvos, and these mitzvos are simply examples – in the drosho of the Hagada, when we are looking for a date and time when the mitzva of סיפור is, we are talking about the mitzvos of Pesach, however this could be from anytime that there are tangible Mitzvos, from the 14th until the 15 inclusive.
I hope that clarifies the question.
As you can see from the previous posters, Chad Gadya & Leiby Wasser brought excellent answers. I also discovered another answer today – see above.April 25, 2022 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2079791
1a2b3c: see what i replied to Avram in MD, if you still feel I have not explained the question, i’ll BN try to make myself clearer.April 25, 2022 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2079792
Reb Eliezer, How do you see in the Minchas Chinuch that there is currently a chiyuv to bring the Korban Pesach? He simply means that when the Bais Hamikdash will be rebuilt, and the 14 th of Iyar will come (hopefully still this year), that in and of itself could create a situation obligating us to bring the KP. It will be a 1 the day of KP + 2 there will be a standing B.Hamikdash. The Halacha is that a ger who converted between 14 Nissan and 14 Iyar is חייב to bring, despite the fact that he was 100% פטור from all the mitzvos at the time of the first KP.
רמב”ם הלכות קרבן פסח פרק ה
גר שנתגייר בין פסח ראשון לפסח שני, וכן קטן שהגדיל בין שני פסחים, חייבין לעשות פסח שני, ואם שחטו עליו בראשון פטור.April 25, 2022 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2079801
I saw from the Shibolei Leket that at the time of the Beis Hamikdash they said בשעה שפסח מצה ומרור מונחים לפניך. They included the Korban Peach to matzah and marror.April 25, 2022 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2079895
You GotaGoodPoint. Thank you for pointing it out to me. There is argument between Rebbi and Rebbi Nasan in Pesochim (93,1) if Pesach Sheni is a makeup or a separate chiyuv. The Rambam paskens like Rebbi that it is a separate chiyuv, so a convert even though not responsible the first Pesach has a chiyuv to bring a korban pesach on Pesach Sheni. According to this, the Minchas Chinuch might hold that we have to bring a Pesach Sheni even though we were not responsible on the first Pesach.April 26, 2022 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2079972
The Ksav Sofer interprets the pasuk in a mussar fashion, וה’ ההלך לפניהם יומם, there are two kinds of temptations, richness and poverty. One should realize that they are in the hand of Hashem and they can change. So when Hashem provides hatzlacha, success בעמוד ענן לנחותם הדרך, keep in mind the dark cloud, that it can become dark and not feel that one has created their own success, will help to live with it and vice versa ולילה בעמוד אש, when going badly, think of the pillar of fire להאיר להם that it can turn to good, ללכת יומם ולילה this will help to overcome the temptation, whether having success or vice versa. The Chasan Sofer, the talmid adds, this is alluded in the Haggadah, to keep for the whole year, matzah the good and marror, the bad constantly in front of us.April 26, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2080108
Why think to start from Rosh Chodash? Everyone agrees that two weeks before Pesach one should start to learn the halachas of Pesach (shoalim vedorshim). So bayom hahu, if that day, maybe we should start early as zerizim makdimim lemitzvos. Answers the gemorah that zerizous, diligence only applies at the time of chiyuv, responsibility when matzah and marror are around to be able to question about. The Maasei Hashem explains that this applies to one asking a question but maybe one who does not, it does not matter? The pasuk tells us that it matters for the father to have something in front of him by which, through revealing a little (את פתח לו), encourages his son to ask.April 26, 2022 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #20801251a2b3cParticipant
Got A Good Point: I don’t think that the pashtus is that it is referring to all mitzvos, but rather to the aforementioned mitzvos in the parashah, i.e. the עבודה הזאת and eating matzos. So to say that it is referring to the 14th would ignore matzos completely, whereas to say that it is referring to the nighttime includes all the mitzvos, even the korban, which is eaten at night. I struggled with your question for a number of years, but I think that this is pashut pshat. 🙂April 27, 2022 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2080578HaLeiViParticipant
This Pasuk is not in the Parsha of Korban Pesach. The Pesukim immediately preceding this one are taking about Matzah. The Parsha in general begins with Bechor.
The stages of Rosh Chodesh, during the day, and night are very understandable. Moshe Rabbeinu informed them about the Korban Pesach on Rosh Chodesh, and so it may follow that we should begin speaking to our children from then as well. And so ir says, ביום ההוא. The 14th day is when we are fully preoccupied with the Korban Pesach, and so perhaps we should talk about it then. That’s where זה comes in, to specify that only when this, the Matza is present.
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