Stoning of an adulterers

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  • #605731
    adams
    Participant

    I am trying to understand a basic concept. Is it Halachik to stone to death an adultress/er? If so, why is this not inplace today? at what point was it halted?

    I am not so learned in general so please be patient.

    #903525
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    If it were done today there would soon be a shortage of stones with long lines forming.

    #903526
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The short answer is that there is no Jewish court authorized today to try capital cases.

    In order to do so, you need two prerequisites — both of which are missing:

    1. The Sanhedrin (the Supreme Court/Legislative body of Sages) must be convened in the Bais HaMikdash. Since there is no Bais HaMikdash today, no court can try capital cases.

    2. You need judges who have an unbroken chain of rabbinical ordination from Moshe. That chain was broken long ago. As a result, there are no judges today qualified to try capital cases.

    The Wolf

    #903527
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wut is this I don’t even

    #903528
    avhaben
    Participant

    The only reason why we don’t do it today is because we don’t have a court today authorized to carry out the death penalty. Otherwise we would do it today. It is still the same prohibition.

    #903529
    avhaben
    Participant
    #903530
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Stone? I think eishes ish gets cheneck.

    Why don’t we stone people who text on shabbos?

    #903531
    PBT
    Member

    Moderator, I think Adams deserves a serious answer, and as he said, he isn’t so learned.

    Adams, there are four different modes of capital punishment prescribed in Torah for various serious offenses. However, they can only be carried out when we have a functioning Sanhedrin sitting in Eretz Yisroel. We haven’t had such a Sanhedrin for 2000 years, and we also don’t have the possibility in our time of the full Smicha (ordination) that the rabbis who would have sat on the Sanhedrin would have. So, no capital punishment at all for any reason because no qualified Jewish court.

    #903532

    Why don’t we stone people who text on shabbos?

    I think a shoteh is patur

    #903533
    musser zoger
    Participant

    texting on Shabbos is d’rabbonon.

    #903535
    akuperma
    Participant

    Have you seen anyone doing adultery with witnesses (being respectable people, whose presences are known). The only ways any halachic capital punishment came into play was if the person was making an effor to publicly flaunt their behavior – which in the real world doesn’t happen.

    #903536
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I am also not learned, so please be patient with me too.

    (1)..a basic concept.. There’s no “concept” here. Torah says in one instance of adultery to stone the transgressors. A law, din, like any other 613 one of them,

    (2)..Is it Halachik.. Yes, when two witnesses come before sanhedrin of 23 and testify, and a host of other criteria are met, then beis din must act. In the case where stoning is required, they are directed to execute it. Not all cases of adultery warrant stoning, though.

    (3)..why is this not inplace today?..Because we do not have sanhedrin today.

    (4) ..at what point was it halted?.. I think at the destruction of the Bais HaMikdash (actually I think a bit before).

    #903537

    lookit, josep goes trolling and hooks the bigest fish in the pond hello ed

    #903538
    farrocks
    Member

    Not all cases of adultery warrant stoning, though.

    Not all cases of murder warrant execution, either.

    #903539
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    akuperma

    Actually I think gemarah says when witnesses see enough to assume etc. ???????? ?? ????? ???? ???????

    #903540
    BaalSechel
    Participant

    Adams,

    It is important to understand the basic concept of the Torah obligaiting us to administer capitsl punishment for people who violate certain egregous sins. The Torah prescribes a very unlikely scenario that must occur, before we actually put someone to death. The two witnesses must warn the person, within seconds of the sin being committedthat if they go through with the sin they will be killed by Bais Din (the Jewish court). The person must respond to the witnesses that he is going to do it anyway. Obvoiusly, this is a highly unlikely scenario. Rav Chaim Voloziner explains that the reason people would respond affirmatively to the death warning is because they crave proper atonement for their uncontrollable sin.

    Maharal explains that the punishments of the Torah are not meant to be a practical deterrent to sin. That is the task of Bais Din in each generation.

    Rather, the Torah mandates a death penalty in order to represenet the totality of what human activity should entail, which includes punishing those liable for punishment. However, it is not intended as being a prctical deterrent.

    #903542
    iced
    Member

    ZeesKite: What do the witnesses have to see to be able to assume they did the maisa that is sufficient for beis din to convict them on a capital offense?

    BaalSechel: If the witnesses warned them and then saw them do it, if either the man or woman didn’t verbally respond to the warning saying “I don’t care”, they both get off with no punishment from beis din?

    And how much time maximum can elapse between the warning and the act, for it to be effective to convict as a capital crime?

    #903544
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Iced: Read sources, it’s not mentionable here, in our hallowed YW CR.

    #903545
    BaalSechel
    Participant

    Iced: That’s correct, they would not be punishable by Bais Din. The amount of time is just a few seconds.

    #903546
    iced
    Member

    ZK: Where are the sources on this issue?

    B: If a murderer kills someone with witnesses but no warning, beis din lets him go scot free (assuming the victim has no family to avenge his death, as they are entitled)? If beis din has remedies for a killer, then beis din can also deal with an adulterer who didn’t get the proper warning.

    #903547
    BaalSechel
    Participant

    Bais Din has the discretion to do whatever it takes to keep society functioning. It depends on the needs of the generation. I am only discussing the Torah obligation that doesn’t change based on the needs of the generation.

    #903548
    farrocks
    Member

    I seem to recall learning that due to loshon hora eidim are not allowed to come to Beis Din with evidence if their testimony is insufficient to convict. For example, if one witness saw a crime when two is required. Perhaps this is also true if there was no warning beforehand?

    #903549
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Iced: Look up in Gemarah and commentaries.

    Farrocks: I think it would be permitted, because they’re making him be a pasul, and they are believed at that.

    #903550
    farrocks
    Member

    ZeesKite: That would apply to two witnesses, but no warning. But only one witness wouldn’t be allowed to tell beis din, correct?

    What is the concept I am referring to where a witness isn’t allowed to bring it to beis din if there’s only one (or the eidus is in some way deficient)?

    #903551

    Adams: go ahead crush the skull of an adulterer with a big rock. Its a mitzvah and will bring you closer to haShem, who will judge you with the same degree of judgment you met on the adulterer.

    #903552
    farrocks
    Member

    Charles: What on earth is that supposed to mean? If Hashem commanded us to execute an adulterer, it is our obligation to do so. We cannot let him go even if we would wish to.

    #903553
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Correct Farrocks.

    Charles, where the Torah commands us to kill someone, or AN ENTIRE CITY, that is the ultimate mercy, ???? ?? ?????, is said after properly killing out an ??? ?????. We base out values on Torah Hashkafah, not on western society’s “gemutlichkeit”.

    #903554
    BaalSechel
    Participant

    Let’s all look at this from its broader perspective. Hashem has two basic modes of coducting the world: 1) When His presence is obvious, such as in the days of the Bais haMkdash, when there were daily miracles. 2) When his presence isn’t obvious.

    Corresponding to that, He engineered two modes of society 1) when people find Him on their own 2) when society holds each other to a basic level of commitment.

    Only the second society can be on the level that merits His revelation. The first, however, affords the indiidual the oportunity for making it on his own.

    We have only seen the first type of society, so we cannot judge what the second looks like.

    #903555

    Yeah, keep all the mitsvot! Good luck with that.

    #903556
    Josh31
    Participant

    Zeeskeit, you have selective memory.

    You seem to remember all the fire brimstone, but not the Gemara that a court that executes once in 70 years is considered “bloody”.

    There is an argument whether there ever was an actual “condemned city”. The Torah is promising us that in the rare (if ever) case of an Ir Hanedachas (condemned city), that the acts of execution will not undermine our natural sense of mercy.

    #903557
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Josh, that’s a selective compliment, actually I have no memory.

    Now to the issue, I was referring to the din, the law, the concept of how it was given by HaShem in His Torah. When and if there was a need, if Beis Din had definite and decisive evidence that one transgressed on a capital crime sin, than they were mechuyav, bidden, to mete out punishment. ???? ???? ?? ???. Again, when the Torah warrants punishment, then there’s no cause for (misplaced) mercy. ?? ????? ?? ??????? is said about one who felt it too harsh to kill out an entire nation. ?? ???? ????, we know where it led. So again, ultimate and true rachmanus, is where and when the Torah says.

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