Stop minding your own buisness!

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  • #596375

    mw13
    Participant

    I have often seen the refrain that people should “mind their own business”, and not worry about the frumkeit-related actions of others. However, I feel this whole concept is of western origin and completely foreign to yiddishkeit. We say “kol yisrael areivim zeh la’zeh”; we must protect each other, both in gashmiyus and in ruchniyus. Li’mashal, if you saw somebody unintentionally drinking poison, would you say “it is not my business” and walk away?

    Also, there is a passuk that says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”: “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”. This comes to imply that if you could have stopped somebody from doing an aveira and CH”V did not do so, you will have to give a din vi’cheshbon as well. If you see somebody doing something halachicly wrong, you are mechuyav to correct them; and if you do not, you have committed an aveira yourself.

    Now obviously this “getting involved” must be done wisely, in a way that will not push the others further away; but it must be done nonetheless.

    #761667

    Very well put mw13.

    #761668

    lesschumras
    Participant

    mw13

    If you don’t eat gabrochts, would you correct someone who does? If you don’t use an eruv, would you corrct someone who does?

    Where do you draw the line?

    #761669

    HIE
    Participant

    maskim

    #761670

    mw13
    Participant

    I am pleasantly surprised to find the majority of people here (so far) agreeing with me… thanks, Clark Kent and HIE.

    lesschumras:

    “If you don’t eat gabrochts, would you correct someone who does? If you don’t use an eruv, would you corrct someone who does?”

    No, I would not. In both of these cases the person is not doing something wrong, they simply have a different minhag they I do. I was talking about something that is clearly wrong li’halacha.

    #761671

    Be Happy
    Participant

    What if you saw a lady that was not dressed up to your standard of Tzinnius? eating food with a weak hechsher? Buying magazines you felt were not suitable?? I think one has to tread SO carefully as the consequences of your rebuke may be worse.

    We have to work on ourselves, family and maybe good friends…

    #761672

    mw13
    Participant

    Be Happy:

    “What if you saw a lady that was not dressed up to your standard of Tzinnius?”

    If she is breaking the halacha (ie, above elbows/knees exposed) then yes, something should be said.

    “eating food with a weak hechsher?”

    Any Orthodox hechsher, wouldn’t say anything.

    “I think one has to tread SO carefully as the consequences of your rebuke may be worse.”

    Agreed. As I said before, “obviously this “getting involved” must be done wisely, in a way that will not push the others further away; but it must be done nonetheless.”

    “We have to work on ourselves, family and maybe good friends… “

    …and the rest of Klal Yisroel. The Torah does not Kol mishpacha arevim zeh la’zeh, or Hochaich tocheach es chaveirecha. Our obligation is to all fellow Jews.

    #761673

    I reiterate my agreement with everything mw13 said.

    #761674

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    MW

    I do agree that people that re doing things wrong should be noitfied. It is all too common that people hold from various rabonim and various personal issues that can have an impact on what they are doing. I am not saying that eating treif should be muttar but the person rushing in to criticize and point out flaws on other people should first be sure that they are in a position to give mussar. Once you are assured that you are in the position to give mussar then you will have to weigh the fact that perhaps the person who is “not following halacha” is either following the psak of another rov that is matir whatever he/she is doing or perhaps it is assur but he/she were goven a heter for various reasons.

    That said, I disagree with you on telling people what you belive they are doing wrong. I persoanlly get upset when someone points out something that I am doing that is not correct. It does not draw anyone closer to frumkeit.

    #761675

    mw13
    Participant

    boredinoffice:

    “the person rushing in to criticize and point out flaws on other people should first be sure that they are in a position to give mussar.”

    The passukim don’t seem to make such a qualification; do you have a source for it?

    “perhaps the person who is “not following halacha” is either following the psak of another rov that is matir whatever he/she is doing or perhaps it is assur but he/she were goven a heter for various reasons.”

    Then no harm done.

    “I persoanlly get upset when someone points out something that I am doing that is not correct. It does not draw anyone closer to frumkeit.”

    First of all, just because you get upset about something doesn’t mean that everybody else does also, as you seem to assume.

    Second, if done right this should offend nobody. Walk over, strike up a conversation, then mention “oh by the way my Rav holds your not allowed to do xyz, does your Rav hold different?”

    #761676

    aries2756
    Participant

    Mw13, firstly 2 is not a majority. Secondly we have been through this discussion many times before, this is not the first thread so you might want to look up the other threads that were started, heated up and then closed. Tochacha is supposed to be given ONLY from a proper authority and only if the person will gain and listen. That is why a proper authority is needed. It is NOT to be given if the person will ignore it and keep doing the aveirah anyway. It is a true balancing act and therefore a reason NOT to get involved and butt into things that are not your business. It is best left to rabbonim and people that are close to the individual or at least know them and know their circumstances who know how to guide them in the right direction. It should never be given in a “negative” or “critical” way but in a way that is positive and guiding. There was a lot of information given back and forth in those discussions, it pays to review them.

    #761677

    Tochacha is supposed to be given ONLY from a proper authority

    Everyone is obligated per halacha to give tochacha when necessary and proper, not just an authority figure.

    a reason NOT to get involved and butt into things that are not your business.

    Like mw13 eloquently pointed out, it is everyone’s business.

    #761678

    There are halochos about rebuke.

    I once saw the following question posed.

    One place we’re told “al tocheach letz” do not rebuke a scoffer

    Another place we’re told to rebuke over and over, even one hundred times, until we’re hit for the rebuke we offer.

    Theses two directives seem to contradict each other. How do we answer this?

    #761679

    mw13
    Participant

    aries:

    “firstly 2 is not a majority.”

    Of three, it certainly is. And sure enough, three people other than myself had posted on this topic at the time.

    “Secondly we have been through this discussion many times before”

    …and it’s about time this finally got its own topic. Besides, I’m tired of talking about shidduchim. 🙂

    “Tochacha is supposed to be given ONLY from a proper authority and only if the person will gain and listen.”

    As I pointed out in my previous post, the passuk of Hochaich tocheiach es amisecha makes no such qualifications. Do you have a source for them?

    “It is a true balancing act and therefore a reason NOT to get involved and butt into things that are not your business.”

    Just because something is a balancing act is not a reason to do nothing. As a wise man once said, doing nothing is also a decision; and it’s a decision we may have to give a din v’cheshbon for. For as I mentioned earlier, the passuk says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”, “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”; but if you could have stopped somebody from doing an aveira and you chose not to, you are held responsible for it.

    “NOT to get involved and butt into things that are not your business.”

    If the Torah says something is my business, you better believe it’s my business.

    “It is best left to rabbonim and people that are close to the individual or at least know them and know their circumstances who know how to guide them in the right direction.”

    I agree that in an ideal situation tochacha should be left to the professionals; but unfortunately the real world is not always so ideal. If somebody is doing something wrong right now and you’re the only one there who can stop them, you have a moral and halachic responsibility to do so.

    “It should never be given in a “negative” or “critical” way but in a way that is positive and guiding.”

    I completely agree.

    #761680

    The requirements to give Tochachah are:

    1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)

    2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.

    3) You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.

    It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.

    #761681

    aries2756
    Participant

    Again, Mw13, WE have discussed this inside and out. I have stated many of the items that was brought to the surface in previous discussions and that is why I suggested that you go back to those threads and read them. There is really no reason to do this over again, when it was reviewed chapter and verse bringing down many sources for both perspectives. I posted some of the things I remembered from that thread. As mentioned before it was thoroughly reviewed and there is a lot to learn from reviewing it, seriously, I wasn’t joking. I am NOT interested in arguing the points with you, line by line or otherwise, all these points were dissecting before by many posters.

    #761682

    TikkunHatzot
    Member

    In the high crime neighborhoods that I used to work in, I would always spot people dealing drugs, shoplifiting & stealing, fighting, etc. So, I would call the cops.

    Occasionally I would ask other why they don’t report these thing & why they turned away instead. It seems the attitude was always “Well, it’s none of my business”….but when something bad happened to these same people, they would blame all the whole community for not stepping in. It was so hypocritical.

    I learned through observation, that having an attitude of “I’m just going to mind my own business” can ‘allow’ a community to become very corrupt.

    #761683

    TikkunHatzot
    Member

    HisRoyal… what you just quoted from Sefer HaChinuch perek 239, is that for only someone that wants to come closer to G-d?

    I’m aware of 2 schools of thought on this; 1 that says you should do it to only those striving to become more spiritual & the other school that says you should do it to ALL Jews.

    #761684

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I have a friend who’s a chumra queen. I think she keeps every chumra anyone ever came up with, and a few she made up herself.

    She frequently tells me I’m doing something wrong. I usually just ignore her. Once in a while, I’ll ask my rav, and he confirms that she’s wrong. (Not wrong about keeping a chumra, wrong about what the halacha is, and trying to impose her chumras on the rest of the world.)

    #761685

    HisRoyal… what you just quoted from Sefer HaChinuch perek 239, is that for only someone that wants to come closer to G-d?

    No. The Sefer HaChinuch says what was cited applies to all.

    #761686

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    i also get so nervous from this. someone who is very close to me always tells me, “You worry about You” i once asked her what that really meant and she said that you shouldn’t nitpick at others bad deeds, that it’s between him and Hashem.

    But i get so nervous because i Love the person that’s totally doing the wrong thing and i want to them something and help them and try to convince them and i always thought we are all responsible for one another so how can this person who’s close to me [and tells me , “you worry about you”, ]be right? or maybe she’s not?

    #761688

    Health, Can you please elaborate on these other shitta’s you speak of? Where in the gemorah and who and where brings them as practical halacha?

    #761689

    mw13
    Participant

    aries:

    “Again, Mw13, WE have discussed this inside and out.”

    We have discussed many things before that we continue to discuss now – what number looks in shidduchim topic are we on? 4? 5? But each time there are different people with different views posting, and often a new thread will shed some new light on the subject.

    “I am NOT interested in arguing the points with you, line by line or otherwise, all these points were dissecting before by many posters.”

    Honestly, that sounds like a cop-out to me. I posted a whole long comment refuting many of your asseverations, and your answer is “I’m not interested in arguing about this because we’ve done so before”. (Despite the fact that repeat threads are a common occurrence here in the CR, not the rare thing you make it sound like.) C’mon, you can do better than that.

    Health:

    “A lot of people will jump on you for the littlest things… And when it comes to major things (which I won’t elaborate- do to the public nature in this forum) you don’t hear a peep from anyone?”

    I think that’s because somebody who is only doing a little thing wrong will be much more likely to listen to tochacha then somebody doing a major wrongdoing.

    “It actually is a 3 way Machlokes in the Gemorrah whether you can give Tochacha or not. “

    Do you know where?

    “But like I said there are three shittos and you don’t have to pick one over the other!”

    Not necessarily… usually when there are different shitos in the Gmora the Rishoniim pasken which one we hold like.

    #761690

    aries2756
    Participant

    MW, you want to argue with me but I don’t want to argue with you. I brought down points that were discussed in the other thread but you want to credit them to me personally.

    This one thing I will tell you which is my shita. You don’t give tochacha to someone you don’t know because in order to give tochacha or help someone to make a correction you have to know that they will appreciate what you tell them and they will make the correction. If they will not listen and make the correction YOU are NOT allowed to give the tochecha because it makes their “knowledgeable” action worse. That is why it is so very important WHO gives the tochacha, HOW it is given and to WHOM it is given. So NO you can’t just go over to a person in the street and try to “HELP” them. YOU can’t just give someone you don’t know your words of wisdom.

    There was a very frum older woman in BP who used to walk over to every young woman and any woman and point to their open collar and tell them to close their top button. Most women did NOT appreciate it. They left their top button open because they wanted to and they did not close their top button because she told them too. So did her tochacha help or harm? Was she doing the right thing? Even is she said it nicely like “you forgot to close your top button”. The response was not “thank you” it was “no I didn’t”.

    #761693

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    mw13,

    I think you are correct in principle, but one cannot understate the difficulty and risk in properly giving tochacha to a Jewish soul. That is why, I think, you are receiving objections to your post. The Kohen Gadol must enter the Holy on Yom Kippur in a very precise fashion… any mistakes can be disasterous. I think giving tochacha should be approached with the same fear and awe. If a valuable ring fell into the sink and was perched right over the drain, we wouldn’t just quickly swing our hand down to grab at it… we would very carefully and deliberately rescue it.

    In some cases if one is careful enough, tochacha can be given indirectly, without any confrontation. To make a really simplistic example, suppose person A sees person B doing something forbidden on Shabbos, like getting something out of his locked car. Maybe later, person A can casually bring up as part of a conversation, “oh, I wish I could show you my such-and-such, but I left in in my car and can’t get it until after Shabbos!” Point made without doing anything to person B’s dignity.

    #761694

    Health
    Participant

    “If she is breaking the halacha (ie, above elbows/knees exposed) then yes, something should be said.”

    I, and probably most people think that it’s Klorr (clear) that she won’t listen if she was given Mussar, so therefore you aren’t Mechuyav to say anything.

    #761695

    shlishi
    Member

    dont underestimate our brothers and sisters!

    #761697

    shlishi
    Member

    walton, i have found the opposite. that those who fail to protest are the ones who are similarly guilty.

    #761698

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I have found that those who protest too much or are in other people’s business are usually those who have many, many skeletons in their closets.

    and

    walton, i have found the opposite. that those who fail to protest are the ones who are similarly guilty.

    There’s no universal rule one way or the other.

    For example, I *hate* it when people talk during davening. It’s one of my pet peeves. Yet, I will not rebuke those who do*. It’s just not my nature to rebuke people (other than my kids for whom I have an absolute and direct responsibility). Instead, I’ll just sit and stew in silence and anger over it — but I will NOT say anything.

    And, for all my faults, I can state with 100% conviction that talking during davening** is NOT one of my faults. I’m VERY careful about that.

    The Wolf

    * I actually did say something to someone a few weeks ago — for the first time — and immediately regretted doing so. So, no more.

    ** Talking during laining is a different matter. There I’m worse than everyone else — but that’s different than talking during davening.

    #761699

    walton157
    Member

    @shlishi: I understand what you are saying, but it has been my experience for just the opposite. Everyone is responsible for their own pot.

    #761700

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    Im with Walton – usually the people pointing out have tons of gooddies hiding and lurking behind them and need to show the world how good they are. We are not all tzadikim like the wolf. I dont belive I am in a position to give mussar to anyone

    #761701

    shlishi
    Member

    the ones who don’t give the tochocho that halacha says one should give, are the ones with tons of the same goodies hiding and lurking behind them. like mw13 pointed out, we all have an obligation to correct others who are doing wrong.

    #761705

    mw13
    Participant

    Sorry for the late responses, everyone…

    aries2756:

    “MW, you want to argue with me but I don’t want to argue with you.”

    This is not meant to be offensive so please don’t take it the wrong way, but if you don’t want to argue with me why are you commenting on this thread?

    “I brought down points that were discussed in the other thread but you want to credit them to me personally.”

    I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that.

    “If they will not listen and make the correction YOU are NOT allowed to give the tochecha because it makes their “knowledgeable” action worse.”

    First of all, as you yourself said this argument only works “if they will not listen”. I see no reason to automatically assume that this is the case.

    Second, I believe that this argument actually stems from a Gemora, which says this only applies by issuray di’Rabbanan not by issuray di’Oraysa.

    “There was a very frum older woman in BP who used to walk over to every young woman and any woman and point to their open collar and tell them to close their top button. Most women did NOT appreciate it. They left their top button open because they wanted to and they did not close their top button because she told them too. So did her tochacha help or harm?”

    From what you have just told me, it seems that it did more harm than good. However, I believe this is because she did not give tochacha in the proper, effective form. As I said earlier, tochacha should be given in a friendly, not offensive manner. Walk over, strike up a conversation, then mention “oh by the way my Rav holds your not allowed to do xyz, does your Rav hold different?

    Avram in MD:

    “I think you are correct in principle, but one cannot understate the difficulty and risk in properly giving tochacha to a Jewish soul. That is why, I think, you are receiving objections to your post. The Kohen Gadol must enter the Holy on Yom Kippur in a very precise fashion… any mistakes can be disasterous. I think giving tochacha should be approached with the same fear and awe.”

    I fully agree. However, just because something must be done precisely is no reason to suggest not doing it all.

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