October 7, 2014 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #613866
a friend of mine just got dropped by his chavrusa because he smokes. he does not smoke during seder, and he offered to wash his hands and spray dio on his clothes with soap after he smokes. but his chavrusa wanted to drop him because he thought it was dangerous to sit next to someone after they smoked. was he being ridiculous?October 7, 2014 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1035144
His Chavrusa dropped him because he was a smoker (sug mentch) or because of the danger involved? If it was because of danger then he was being ridiculous, because what danger is there to sit next to a smoker after the latter washing hands and clothes (and mouth, I imagine!). My better guess would be that he was just giving an excuse, and didn’t like your friend!
If, however, he was dropping him because he was a smoker, and it wasn’t the smoking itself nor the after effects that bothered him, but rather the fact the fact that he was a Smoker (??? mentch), that couldn’t be classified as ridiculous, although it is quite a large statement on his behalf, which any smoker would definitely call unreasonable.October 7, 2014 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1035145–Participant
The term is “Third-hand Smoke”. It’s a relatively new concern so there’s not that much data on it.October 7, 2014 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1035146yytzParticipant
No. Search for “third-hand smoke” (in both Google and Google Scholar) and you’ll see that some evidence seems to show a significant risk (though there is not much evidence yet.)October 7, 2014 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1035147MDGParticipant
I am very sensitive to cigarette smoke. I once had a chavruta who smoked in the evening. Even the next morning, his breath would be uncomfortable for me, bothering my throat.
BTW, many smokers don’t realize how bad they smell. It could be that the chavruta didn’t like the smell but was trying to avoid being insulting like, ” I can’t learn with you because you stink.”October 7, 2014 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1035148frumnotyeshivishParticipant
MDG: Pretend that instead of smoke causing your imagined sensitivities, it was Arrid deodorant. Would you then admit that it is you with the problem?
YYTZ: If there is a place (like a room indoors, BMG, or a car) where there has been a lot of smoking done, third hand smoke is a plausible, albeit far-fetched concern. If you talking about a person whose breath smells, it is less plausible concern. A person who takes precautions to not expose another is a completely implausible source of third hand smoke.
Seriously, the witchhunt needs to go. Yes, smoking causes cancer. A heavy smoker has about a 1:10 chance of getting lung cancer. Other breathing problems are more likely. The CDC with all its MPH knowitalls were and are very successful in manipulating the masses’ thoughts regarding smoking. Don’t smoke. It’s stupid. But don’t be an idiot either.
From Wikipedia: “A 2014 study published in the journal Pediatrics demonstrated that parents are more likely to attempt to quit smoking if they become convinced that thirdhand smoke is harmful to children and more likely to have smoke-free home and car policies if they are aware of the dangers of third-hand smoke.” Every MPH knows that their ultimate purpose is to get people to quit smoking as it is from the most controllable significant health factors. Thus you cant believe everything they say as truth isn’t their goal, raising public life expectancy and decreasing overall healthcare cost is.October 7, 2014 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1035149
Can somebody explain what 3rd hand smoke is? (And if it includes after one already cleans ones clothes and breath?)October 7, 2014 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1035150sirvoddmortMember
So unless his chavrusa is repeatedly hugging him, there’s no risk. And if he is, he should stop for a whole other reason.
But generally, smokers smell of tobacco no matter how hard they try.October 7, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1035151oyyoyyoyParticipant
i wud drop him for his krummah kupOctober 7, 2014 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1035152
So unless his chavrusa is repeatedly hugging him, there’s no risk. And if he is, he should stop for a whole other reason.
????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ??October 8, 2014 6:17 am at 6:17 am #1035153MDGParticipant
“MDG: Pretend that instead of smoke causing your imagined sensitivities, it was Arrid deodorant. Would you then admit that it is you with the problem?”
That’s rude of you to say “imagined sensitivities”. My doctors told me about my sensitivities using medical tests. But to answer your question, a person doesn’t exhale Arrid deodorant at you for hours at a time like a chavruta with his breath.October 8, 2014 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1035154
just to clarify, my freind was told that his chavvrusa would continue with him if he stopped, and he was considering it, and the issue was clearly third hand smoke, in the end the rosh hayeshva advised them to conntinue rregardless.October 8, 2014 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1035155The little I knowParticipant
Let’s suppose he discovers that his chavrusa was surfing the internet for schmutz. Would you then approve of his being dropped as a chavrusa? The smoker is violating open halachos about “Venishmartem me’od lenafshosaichem”, and this has been stated openly by scores of Poskim and Gedolei Hador. There are numerous threads here about the issur of smoking, and repetition is useless. The point here is that one may choose to drop a baal aveiro as a chavrusa.
If one does not care about adhering to mitzvos, as is apparent in his choice to continue smoking when the world’s greatest poskim declared it against halacha, why would one respect that individual’s Torah that he chooses to not follow?
I will yield to others to post the links to previous discussions about the halachic aspects of smoking.
Lastly, I have read the gibberish from those proponents of smoking. Every single one approaches the issue as something that “must be muttar because I wish to do it with impunity”. They continue on to twist logic and words of halacha psukah to meet their predetermined goal of brandishing a heter. This is a form of self-bribery, and is not halachically sound.October 8, 2014 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1035156
the little i know- if not for the fact that i seriously doubt that anyone who is surfing the interrnet for shmuutz, could possibly concentrate and be immersed in learning enough for me to want to be his chavrusa, then i would take him no problem, and just btw i doont believe you should be comparing smoking to gilui aroiess (one the three aveirois chamuriois), even comparing it to someone who speaks lashon hora (almost all of us).
and anyway the poskei hador have said its ossur to start smoking, i have yet to see a psak which sais that when you light up a cigarette you are being oivur a issur doiraisa.October 8, 2014 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1035157☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The anti smoking people have just as much of an agenda as the smokers, say just as much gibberish, and twist halacha just as much, in furtherance of their agenda.October 8, 2014 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1035158
The Little I Know – It does say ?? ??? ???? ??? ????, however, that does not warrant dropping a chavrusa. Watching indecent material can and does distract one from learning. It leaves a roishem. Smoking, whatever the issur is, does not harm ones learning (unless suffering from terrible addiction). No shuychus.
Heavy brisker – You may have heard from the Gateshead Rav, R’ Zimmerman Shlit”a at our many shabbos tables there, that every cigarette is an issur.October 8, 2014 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1035159doleofyouParticipant
Smoking is a filthy habit, at some point the smell just lingers.October 8, 2014 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1035160The little I knowParticipant
The list of poskim is staggering – that every cigarette is an issur d’oraysa. It is on tape from Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L. The list in seforim on the subject is impressive. Sorry if you wish to minimize it. The comparison to gilui arayos is not frivolous. Suicide is a form of retzicha, and that places it within the parameters of the 3 aveiros chamuros.
DY: You bet I have an agenda. It is to eradicate aveiros. We just recited “Ki saavir memsheles zadon min ha’aretz”, that evil, aka yetzer horah, will be banished from this world. It is my agenda, and should be yours, too. So far, I have never twisted a halacha. I refer you to review the seforim with haskamos from virtaually all the recognized gedolim of today, with direct quotes from those of today and recent past. I will not bother with statements about tzaddikim from generations ago, when the dangers of smking were unknown. Yes, I have the agenda of those poskim (almost all) who recognize the issur of smoking.October 8, 2014 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1035161Sam2Participant
frumnotyeshivish: Arrid isn’t laced with dozens of carcinogenic materials.
heavy brisker: You need to prove that Hirhurei Aveirah are a subcategory of Giluy Arayos. I think they’re their own Issur, not part of G”A.
yekke: Similarly, you need to prove that doing that affects one’s learning. I thought it was an explicit Gemara that the opposite is true. Learning removes those tendencies.October 8, 2014 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1035162Patur Aval AssurParticipant
“The smoker is violating open halachos about “Venishmartem me’od lenafshosaichem””
How did this pasuk get co-opted as the source to stay away from danger. The pasuk is talking about avodah zarah, and the various midrashim and Torah commentators speak about it in that context. I have not seen anywhere in Chazal or Rishonim where this pasuk is the source for this issur. The closest thing that I have seen would be the Gemara in Berachos 32b and Tosafos in Shavuos 36a. The Maharsha in fact points this out in the Gemara in Berachos. The earliest sources that I have seen use this pasuk as the source are the Rashbash in siman 1 and the Sefer Charedim. Then suddenly when we get to the late Acharonim, I have seen this pasuk being used by many of them as such a source. Anyone have any idea how this happened, or know of an earlier source that uses this pasuk?October 8, 2014 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1035163
heavy brisker: “if not for the fact that i seriously doubt that anyone who is surfing the interrnet for shmuutz, could possibly concentrate and be immersed in learning enough for me to want to be his chavrusa, then i would take him no problem” how would you accept a rasha as chavrusah?October 11, 2014 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1035165
Sam2 – yekke: Similarly, you need to prove that doing that affects one’s learning. I thought it was an explicit Gemara that the opposite is true. Learning removes those tendencies.
I am not going to fight with YOU about that, if you can’t find a mekor I certainly won’t be able to! I think I heard it besheim Rabbeinu Yona, but don’t remember offhand. Will try find the mekoir!October 11, 2014 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1035166
scared driveer delight of coarse i would its not my business who my chavrusa is the only question how much or how well i would learn with that chavrusa for the allotted time each day, no other question comes into the picture, unless you will become influenced by him.October 12, 2014 3:53 am at 3:53 am #1035168NoachMember
Anyone under the age of 40 who smokes is a retard and deserves to be put in cheremOctober 12, 2014 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1035169oyyoyyoyParticipant
haha! if i had a chance to learn with a rasha lamdan or am haaretz chasid id take rasha lamdan any day of my lifeOctober 12, 2014 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1035170secretagentyidMember
“Anyone under the age of 40 who smokes is a retard and deserves to be put in cherem”
Hmm. Besides the ridiculous ignorance this displays, let me tell you a story. I began smoking at 14, i was part of a bad crowd, I was angry and unhappy. As well, 2 of my brothers smoked at that point. Since then i have attempted to quit on 8 seperate occasions. The best lasted 6 months. The most recebt was 3 weeks ago, and the next time is in two weeks. Please tell me why I deserve to be put in cherem? Also try understand other people’s point of viewOctober 12, 2014 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1035171
noach- almost all people who are over 40 and smoke, started when they were younger then 40 so they are also retards, and anyone who started smoking when they are older then 40 is most definitely retarded.October 12, 2014 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1035172
as any competent brisker would know, torah that comes from an impure source is not recognized. Hence their campaigns against anyone with bad hashkafos. Reshaim are no worse.
Noach, are all retards to be put in cheirem, or only retards who smoke?October 13, 2014 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1035173jewishfeminist02Member
A “rasha” is not the same thing as a “baal aveirah”. Anyone who thinks he himself is NOT a “baal aveirah” is mistaken, because nobody is perfect. We were all created with our own taivahs and you may not understand it, but there are people out there who are genuinely struggling to do the right thing. Hashem tests us all in different ways. Try not to judge. Whether or not you should accept as a chavrusah someone you know to be doing a particular aveirah depends on whether or not the aveirah will affect your learning, as well as which one of you is more likely to influence the other in that area.October 13, 2014 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1035174WiseyParticipant
If he really feels unsafe he should respectfully and kindly tell his chavrusa of the concern and give him chizuk in overcoming this difficulty.October 14, 2014 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1035175
jewish feminist, I’m not sure if you’re right technically–anyone who is oiveir an aveirah (for which s/he’s chayav malkos?) and doesn’t do t’shuvah is a rasha.
But you have a good point. I sit corrected.
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