November 13, 2008 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #588641Pashuteh YidMember
One of the most difficult stories for me to understand in Tanach is when Uza was punished for steadying the Aron Kodesh as it was teetering on a wagon (Shmuel Beis 6,6-7). Who among us would not steady a Sefer Torah during hagbah and gelilah if we saw it about to fall Chas Vshalom, or if it was leaning over precariously in an Aron during hotzaah and hachnasah? Why was he punished so severely? Why was he expected to rely on a neis?November 13, 2008 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #624905JosephParticipant
When a man is called up to the Torah, he is supposed to touch the Torah only with his Talis, not with his bare hand.November 13, 2008 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #624906WolfishMusingsParticipant
Right, Joseph. Nonetheless, I’m sure that any Rav will tell you that if you are faced with the choice of the sefer falling (which is what Jewishfeminist was talking about) or catching it with your bare hands, the better option is to catch it.
The WolfNovember 13, 2008 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #624907feivelParticipant
Rabbi Avigdor Miller said he did the right thing. nevertheless there was a very small lack in his Emuna, and for a man of his greatness, there needed to be punishment. he also states that his death was a KiddushHashem for it demonstrated the great sanctity of the Aron, and he was certainly rewarded for this in OlamHaBah.
if you find some contradictions in the above, it is not a quote but only my memory of what R’ Miller said, and please attribute any innacuracies to my faulty memoryNovember 13, 2008 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #624908jewishfeminist02Member
“When a man is called up to the Torah, he is supposed to touch the Torah only with his Talis, not with his bare hand.”
I am well aware of this. However, Pashuteh Yid’s question refers to Hagbah and Glilah, when the Torah is already wrapped up and a person catching it would touch only the velvet covering and not the actual parchment.November 13, 2008 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #624909feivelParticipant
“However, Pashuteh Yid’s question refers to Hagbah and Glilah, when the Torah is already wrapped up and a person catching it would touch only the velvet covering and not the actual parchment.”
the Sefer Torah is not wrapped up during Habboh and Glilah. it is exposed, that was his question.
it is not wrapped up until after Hagboh and Glilah are completed.November 13, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #624910oomisParticipant
The Jews were forbidden to touch the Aron Kodesh. Period. They had seen enough miracles to know that Hashem would not let the Aron Kodesh fall unless He wanted it to fall. It was an issue of bitachon, and also proved the idea that even well-intentioned people can err.November 13, 2008 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #624911charlie brownMember
I heard from one of the ziknei roshei hayeshiva in eretz yisroel that the pshat is that the aron was nosei es nos’av, it carried those who appeared to be carrying it. His mistake was to think that without his help the aron would fall and he is the one who is preventing the fall. By a sefer torah in a shul this wouldn’t seem to apply, only the aron of the mishkan had this attribute that it carried those who carry it.November 15, 2008 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #624912notpashutMember
oomis & charlie have the right answers.
l’chora that’s pashut pshat.
feivel – your answer from R’ Miller Ztz”l is a tzorich iyun gadol.November 16, 2008 2:18 am at 2:18 am #624913Pashuteh YidMember
To all, thanks for your ideas. Charlie, the Nosei es Nosav is in Rashi there, I believe. Nevertheless, why a person should die for trying to help, is still troubling. It must be, as mentioned by Oomis that they should have seen enough miracles not to worry. (The falling of the Philistine idols in the Aron’s presence.) Still, one could ask why the Aron required a wagon at all. Why did it not just levitate and travel on its own? I suppose the answer is that would be a nes goluy. Anyway, one thing we do see is that things were much different in the time of Tanach than nowadays, where there is hester ponim.
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