Struggles with guys

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  • #609555

    danish123
    Member

    Any girl who struggles with guys, will be able to relate to this poem. Read it- it inspired me to stop.

    Hashem created you and me

    To serve him and do his will

    He gave us the Torah as a guide

    And mitzvos to fulfill

    Each mitzvah is an opportunity

    To draw us closer to our king

    Our loving father, our creator,

    Sustainer of everything!

    Some mitzvos look like restrictions

    And seem to get in the way of life

    And oftentimes, we’re upset with them

    We feel such anger and strife

    But what we fail to understand

    Is that these mitzvos he gave to us

    Are really only for our good

    And not meant to be torturous

    Let’s take for instance the halacha

    Of not permitted to talk to boys

    Hashem knows that those teens

    Only treat us girls as toys

    We might be pretty to the eye

    And sometimes nice to touch

    But when it comes to caring about whats inside

    Their hormones won’t let them see much

    They know how to talk to us

    And which buttons to press

    To make us fall in love with them

    And how to make us feel our best

    But their young minds, aren’t yet mature

    They’re not ready to take care of us

    So hashem said its best not to talk to them

    Until they mature and grow up

    Before then, their only interest

    Is the clothing that you wear

    Your size skirt, and style shirt

    And how you wear your hair

    They can’t see past your curves and shape

    And the makeup on your eyes

    They could care less about how you feel

    As long as you’re by their side

    When we choose the shorter skirt

    And put on that tighter top

    And layer on the eye shadow

    And fix our hair non-stop

    We are only helping them

    To concentrate on the external

    We’re responsible for blinding them

    From anything internal

    And if one day you eat to much

    And your skirt size jumps a bit

    He’ll no longer appreciate you

    And to a relationship he won’t commit

    Hashem treasures us so much

    His princesses, so dear…

    We are future mamas of klal yisroel

    And we only reserve love that’s true and real

    So hashem is protecting us

    And gives mitzvos to you and me

    To make sure that the man we build a home with

    Will treat us respectfully

    When that time comes and we are grown

    And ready to shidduch date,

    We’ll dress betznuah and act refined

    And find our true “soul mate”

    He won’t be looking at your body

    Or using you for his games

    He’ll be able to learn about your inner beauty

    And you’ll do just the same

    And iy”h when the time is right

    And you find that special guy

    You will build a beautiful home

    Built on Torah and real love from inside…

    And iy”h after you have a baby

    And you no longer seem quite so thin

    He will love you just the same

    Cuz he always loved you for what he saw within

    So right now talking and texting guys

    Is a waste of dignity and time

    They come and go and break your heart

    And make you suffer and cry

    Hashem doesn’t want us to go through that

    So a halacha he did rule

    To keep us far away from them

    Till they’re ready to appreciate you!

    So do yourself a favor dear,

    And try not to see this as a test

    But as a protection created for you

    And you can consider yourself blessed!

    And when that day comes and your dressed in white

    At the threshold of becoming a wife

    You can love your husband with your whole true heart

    Cuz he’ll be the only love of your whole life!

    Don’t let those other boys get in the way

    Of the special bond the two of you will share

    One day you’ll see, waiting was worth it!

    You just need some patience, my dear!

    #957511

    SaysMe
    Member

    so well said!thanks for sharing!

    #957512

    Bored214
    Participant

    wow thats so good…and yup so well said!

    #957513

    mitzvahgirl613
    Participant

    That was amazing!!! i agree with saysme so well said and in such a nice way!! no criticizing involved!!!

    #957514

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    After reading this, I can’t help but to think of all those girls who will never find their Bashert due to the shidduch crisis 🙁

    #957515

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I do not agree with this. I do not think it is true that a teenage guy’s relationship with a girlfriend is so much different than an adult man’s.

    And I do not think that is the reason to not have a boyfriend. And I certainly don’t think that is why Hashem wants you to wait “until they mature”.

    #957517

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Agree with pba. I went on that FrumTeens website the other day, and they had this big list of reasons why girls shouldn’t talk to guys–here were some of the reasons:

    7) The guy is 100% talking bad about you to his frineds in one way or another

    8)All a guy wants at this age is play-and hell use you for that

    9)Every boy is a liar, a pervert, a jerk, and you will eventually find this out

    34)YOU CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER TRUST A BOY

    40)Think about how mean the guys are-if they call when we’re doing something we stop and talk to themm, but when we call, we’re like the last on their list

    I’m not even exactly sure what this sort of stuff is trying to accomplish…

    #957518

    Toi
    Participant

    ichsa

    #957520

    kevuda
    Member

    If having these reasons helps some girls avoid the nisoyon, then I’m all for holding of these reasons. It isn’t completely off; and even if it isn’t exact, the psychological benefit of using them to stay away from boys is sufficient.

    #957521

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    OOM- not sure the connection. You said you didn’t like this list and then listed another list you don’t like. I’m confused /0 0

    ~

    #957522

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I disagree with popa, and I think he is just in denial.

    #957523

    I think it’s cute–at best. It can also be a nice little added incentive to help you stay away, but I don’t agree with it. I might just be saying this because I’m a guy and noge’a b’davar, but I don’t think every guy is out there just to “get some” and I know for a fact that not every guy that goes out on shidduchim dates is already mature. You should refrain from speaking with guys because you’ll both suffer from it, the guy will be further enticed to do an aveirah, and the girl will suffer a bad name/reputation for the future.

    Edited. are you crazy?

    #957524

    Just more infantilization of the females.

    This attitude of “boys are evil/yucky” is cute when girls are 8 but when that attitude is reinforced daily until age 19 it can have a very damaging effect.

    edited

    #957525

    wow awesome! I finally got my first edit! And with such a great comment too! I’m loving it! Thanks Mod, you just TOTALLY made my day!!!

    #957526

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Syag: Because both of them are promoting justifications that are not grounded in reality. Boys display sociopathic behavior up until marriage and then become kind, sensitive snowflakes? If you don’t have a boyfriend before marriage your reward (seriously?!) will be this awesome guy who will love you and be devoted to you for all eternity–just by virtue of you being such a good girl? In my (humble and inexperienced) opinion, this is not the type of thinking that fosters healthy marriages.

    All that is beside the fact that the actual problems with having a relationship outside of marriage are hirhur, negiah, and etc. Would two well-adjusted thirty year-olds be allowed to have a romantic relationship? What is the point in building spurious and potentially harmful ideas? If a girl has trouble accepting the basic halacha as it is, try to find her other emotional (or dare I say, intellectual) outlets.

    #957527

    MCP
    Member

    Yes, let’s put down boys because we don’t have the self esteem to respect ourselves, great plan.

    Here is my poem for why boys shouldn’t talk to girls:

    Girls are evil, licentious, and more

    They will lie to your face, stab their friends in the back

    Think you only like them for looks

    and possibly their snacks

    Thank you very much.

    Also, there are also good guys who talk to girls. I know that your Morah said boys are all bad, but in many of the situations I know of the girl was at fault for being too shallow, or for playing with the guy’s emotions, or lying to him about a variety of things.

    There are bad guys and bad girls. That doesn’t make all guys or all girls bad. Use your own mind, don’t just spew the garbage that you’ve memorized but don’t believe.

    #957528

    MCP
    Member

    And thumbs up COTW

    #957529

    WIY
    Member

    crisisoftheweek

    Really? This goes on in the goyish world until the man in mature enough to love a woman for who she is inside (approximately age 35).

    By goyim this is how it works very often, boy and girl meet at some random bar or what not, boy convinces girl to be intimate with him after a few dates sometimes less. They date a few months. If they like each other enough they move in together. After 3-5 years girl brings up marriage. Guy pushes her off 1-3 years. Girl then tells guy “I WANT TO GET MARRIED STOP PUSHING IT OFF” guy says “I don’t really think we are for each other.” Girl breaks down and cries and lives in heartbreak and depression for many months or even a year and after some intense therapy she picks herself up and starts dating again.

    My point is that unless a guy is mature and ready for marriage which means responsibility and really taking care of his wife with all that entails its just a selfish relationship where the guy uses the girl for whatever he needs and once the relationship becomes inconvenient for him in any way, like she starts being demanding on his time or whatever he dumps the girl and moves on to the next.

    #957530

    WIY
    Member

    OneOfMany

    You understand NOTHING of what the typical teenage boy is all about. They run on hormones. I will also add that most teenage girls are too immature for a relationship as well and are using the boys in their own way for their emotional needs. Its not usually about being in a giving relationship as much as “I need a boy it will make me feel good…”

    #957531

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    WIY:

    (1) Hate to break it to you, but your conception of non-Jewish relationships is not grounded in reality.

    (2) Sheichus teenage boys? All human beings are run on hormones. Males age 97. Females aged 3 months.

    (3) What statement of mine are you trying to refute? I do not see how anything you are saying relates to what I have said.

    #957532

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Here is my poem for why boys shouldn’t talk to girls:

    Girls are evil, licentious, and more

    They will lie to your face, stab their friends in the back

    Think you only like them for looks

    and possibly their snacks

    Nice.

    #957533

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You understand NOTHING of what the typical teenage boy is all about. They run on hormones.

    How about we’ll all just say our own experiences instead of generalizing. Because we can’t really know what other people think.

    :-)))

    #957534

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    OOM – I understand what you are saying, but I really don’t think that was what was said. In fact I am pretty sure it wasn’t. It sounds like it was interpreted (by many here) with a strong, reflexive bias.

    #957535

    kevuda
    Member

    “If a girl has trouble accepting the basic halacha as it is, try to find her other emotional (or dare I say, intellectual) outlets.”

    Why and what? Why find another emotional trick to get her to follow halacha if this works? And what other emotional outlet are you referring to that would get her to follow halacha?

    #957536

    working
    Member

    There is no such thing as guys and girls “Just Being Friends”. While a girl maybe happy with where a relationship is at, the guy is always trying to get to the next base.

    #957537

    writersoul
    Member

    PBA: Double chin? 🙂

    OOM: I totally agree. I don’t know f boys’ hormones are like WIY says or no, but that is really not the point. The rapid 180 girls are expected to turn in attitude the second they get home from seminary is really ridiculous. If guys are hormonal at 17, they’ll be hormonal at 23 just as well. If we’re supposed to despise boys, what exactly is changing about them the moment we step off the plane?

    I happen to have read that list a while back and it absolutely appalled me. “You can never ever trust a boy”? “Every boy is a liar, a pervert, a jerk”? What makes it even worse is that in half the population you end up with an ingrained mistrust of boys that is NOT going to magically evaporate by shidduch time and on the other end you get girls who are so turned off by this list (people have brothers, you know) that they go to the opposite extreme. (Trust me, I know both types. It’s ridiculous.)

    #957538

    writersoul
    Member

    kevuda: If you were taking a medication to treat your, say, hypertension (ch”v) and suddenly found out that with every dose, a small amount of poison is being stored in your body which will eventually become fatal- would you keep taking it, because it helps your hypertension? I know I’d be high-tailing it to the pharmacy to get a different type of pill.

    #957539

    WIY
    Member

    OneOfMany

    1) You are right I omitted the one (or 2 or 3) night stands.

    2) Teenagers have raging hormones edited. Additionally because their brains are still growing and maturing, which doesnt complete until the late teens or early 20’s certain things go on in the brain which causes lack of maturity in the the following areas: goal-setting, priority-setting, planning, organisation and impulse-inhibition. You can google to get more info. on these things.

    #957540

    just my hapence
    Participant

    This is all kinds of wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s ‘all boys are evil animals and all girls are pure, demure and need protecting’. It’s this kind of misandrist claptrap that creates the kind of atmosphere where girls feel perfectly comfortable taking pictures of guys dancing behind the mechitza so they can rate them and guys feel so uncomfortable with the thought of even accidentally seeing a girl that they walk so bent over they end up looking like Quasimodo by age 20. Ok, so I’m exaggerating that last bit but I saw the girls rating guys with my own eyes. Imagine if a guy would write a poem about not talking to girls because all they’re after is your money, now what kind of reaction would that engender? This is pretty much the same thing. How on Earth does some high-school morah know what guys are thinking?! How on Earth can they make such ridiculous, stupid comments?! Yes, I’m ranting a bit but this seriously gets my goat. I’ve never ever met a guy who was remotely like the kind described in this poem or as commonly portrayed by some in the ‘chinuch industry’, and I’ve known a fair few over the years, what with all my friends being male, not to mention the fact that I think I know myself better than some high-school morah or sem rebbetzen. </rant>

    #957541

    WIY
    Member

    writersoul

    I guess girls are smart until they decide to be thickheaded.

    “You can never ever trust a boy”? “Every boy is a liar, a pervert, a jerk”?

    That line doesn’t mean always in all situations. It means that when it comes to boy-girl teenage relationships a boy will say or do anything he can to get intimate with you. He will say he loves you and talk nice to you until you will let him have his way with you.

    #957542

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Syag: The funny thing is I think all the arguments from the other side are coming from reflexive bias. And I have zero personal investment in this issue (except perhaps some investment in dispelling stupidity), so what would you attribute my opinion to?

    #957543

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    WIY:

    (1) Okay, I’ll rephrase. Where are you getting your information on how non-Jewish relationships work?

    (2) Sheichus teenage boys? All human beings are run on hormones. Males age 97. Females aged 3 months.

    (3) What statement of mine are you trying to refute? I do not see how anything you are saying relates to what I have said.

    #957544

    WIY
    Member

    One of many

    Go google raging hormones and the effects it has on teenage boys and come back. Also google what goes on in college and all that. Most of it wont be allowed by your filter if you have one. Theres plenty information online about non Jewish relationships pre and during and post college.

    #957545

    @mcp

    Thanks! there was more to it but it didnt make it past the mods.

    #957546

    truthsharer
    Member

    Just random thoughts popping into my head:

    (Not necessarily Jewish/Halacha related, but might be relationship related)

    Even if men are pigs as the Gadol Hagirls R’ Orlofsky teaches, girls are now aware of it. So when they have a relationship with a pig, they know what they’re getting into and how to deal with it. It is also a good learning experience for a real relationship when the boy wakes up and suddenly is not a pig (usually by aged 50-60 and then by 70 he’s a pig again).

    Everyone has hormones, but it is true that teenagers have it worse, both girls and boys. It’s like a car that just turned on in the cold. It will take a few minutes for the car to warm up. You drive carefully, without revving the engine, etc. So too a teenager, the hormones are starting to kick in and they have to learn how to deal with it. An adult male/female of 25/30/40 still has those hormones but they are more experienced and know how to handle it.

    #957547

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    WIY:

    (1) The Internet is not a credible source for how relationships work in the real world, Jewish or non-Jewish. Do you believe what the Internet says about Gerrer marriages?

    (2) Go read the comment you are trying to address (found HERE) and then try to address it.

    #957548

    batseven
    Participant

    Danish123:

    +1,000,000

    That was a awesome poem!

    I am a girl, and I can relate to what you wrote in a very positive way.

    Its so true!!!

    #957549

    writersoul
    Member

    WIY: What part of “never, ever” don’t you understand?

    Do you like being called a liar, pervert and jerk? Because that’s what they’re doing, and that’s what I take offense at, because by creating such absolutes they are invalidating their own position.

    #957550

    WIY
    Member

    Oneofmany

    I disagree theres plenty of factual information to be found on non Jewish relationships. (Who is lying about them? Jews?)

    “Do you believe what the Internet says about Gerrer marriages?”

    Actually a lot of it is true.

    I have also heard from non Jews that I have worked with and from things I have read or heard in shiurim from Rabbis who were campus Rabbis and spoke about all the trash that goes on in college campuses. Females in the non Jewish world get used for something. I will leave your imagination up to figuring out what that is.

    #957551

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    WIY:

    (1) (a) How are you verifying that it is “factual”? How are you verifying what the Internet says about Gerrer marriages is “factual”?

    (1) (b) I am not looking for information. That is not why I am asking you these questions.

    (1) (c) You are going off the topic with the college culture issues. I was trying to address your comment HERE.

    (2) Go read the comment you are trying to address (found HERE) and then try to address it.

    #957552

    WIY
    Member

    writersoul

    Context is everything.

    #957553

    younglady
    Member

    danish123: omg! you are amazing, this poem is the best!!!!!!! Was it you who wrote it???

    #957554

    DUNO
    Member

    danish123 and WIY you are both so so so right

    #957555

    writersoul
    Member

    WIY: I’m tired and I’ve got too much homework- I’m going to let OOM do the arguing on this one, as I think we pretty much agree (and she’s much better than me at putting her thoughts clearly and concisely).

    #957556

    Guys- can you answer a simple question. When speakers like R’Orlofsky, R’Mechanic, R’Wallerstien, etc come to speak to us girls they bash how terrible guys are amd thats why we shouldnt talk to them….so what do they tell you?

    #957557

    batseven
    Participant

    Guys c’mon.

    No one is saying that boys are pigs, or terrible animals or something. I’ve heard Rabbi Wallerstein speak and he does not bash guys like that.

    But its just a fact that they have a very strong yetzer hara, and therefore may very likely be looking at the girl not for who she is. It’s just informing girls to understand how guys tick and therefore to be able to make smart choices.

    That’ all. No need to get insulted.

    #957558

    rebdoniel
    Member

    From a male perspective:

    There is no such thing as a purely platonic friendship. There always is sexual tension, because that is how men are made.

    If you’re not talking to a guy within the context of vetting him as a possible shidduch, then you have no business talking to a guy.

    #957559

    CRuzer
    Member

    @ultimiateskier,

    They don’t tell us anything. The only shmuzim I’ve heard on this topic were recordings from speeches given to girls.

    #957561

    writersoul
    Member

    batseven: Read the full list from which OOM took her examples. It should be on FrumTeens.

    Very calm and neutral, no?

    #957562

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    writersoul: Thanks for the vote of confidence. 🙂 But until he decides to address the points I made in my second post on this thread, which is what he is seemingly reacting to, there isn’t much more for me to say.

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