Struggling with Cholov Yisrael..

Not telling you what to do. there are dayos on both sides of the spectrum, but if u decide to switch you may want to consult with a rav about matir neder. Rav cohen from gvul yavetz is very well versed in these halachos.

What is so hard with keeping Cholov Yisroel? If you can keep Kosher which is harder to keep(complex Halachos etc.), it should be a piece of cake keeping Cholov Yisroel. Also, there is a wide variety of CY products, so a lack of options is not an excuse either.

Moshe, depending on your level of CY, you either have to make sure a OUD product doesn’t contain milk (because CS equipment is fine) or have to avoid it entirely (because CS equipment is a problem). Either way, both can sometimes be inconveniencing. Either way, Justsmile should just ask his LOR, just like everyone said.

moshe1994: Your reply to rebyidd23 is nonsensical and misses the point. There are some products that do not have a CY alternative. As to your comment “If you can keep Kosher which is harder to keep (complex Halachos etc.), it should be a piece of cake keeping Cholov Yisroel.” is not exactly true when someone was brought up on Cholov Stam. There are numerous CS products available that one “gives up” to be CY (some have CY alternatives and some don’t). Kol Hakovod to those who make the switch.

The OP stated “I am going thru a tough time now “. Is it financial, psychological, physical? Nobody on this list knows and it is not anyone’s place to speculate. Rebyidd23’s original answer “Ask your Local Orthodox Rabbi” is the best answer one can give.

Pride of the farm products do not go bad before expiration date unless of course it was kept out or the fridge isnt working right.

If there are medical issues there is no reason to keep it up, Your #1 issue should be getting well, not worrying about C’Y

Golden flow milk does last long, but it is nowhere near shelf-stable.

I can relate to you, because I was in a somewhat similar situation (although there is a definite difference). In my case, I grew up with Chalav stam and never considered taking on chalav yisrael. However, for my entire adult life, I happened to end up living in places where chalav yisrael was the most (or only) available milk, so I ended up only using chalav yisrael when it came to milk, but not when it came to chocolate.

At a certain point, when I was living in Lakewood, I thought that I should take on chalav yisrael because it seemed inappropriate to eat chalav stam in a community in which being makpid on chalav yisrael is so widespread.

But for several reasons, I decided that this was not something that I should be taking on myself. My reasons were probably similar to yours in the sense that I realized that this was something that I need right now and that it wasn’t good for my emotional health and therefore for my Avodas Hashem, to take this on myself right now. And if I want to work on something, there are more important things for me to work on.

However, there is an essential difference between my case and yours, which is the fact that you were already makpid on chalav yisrael. I think that becoming more meikel is very different from not going more machmir, and personally, I think that one should be very wary of becoming more meikel on something.

On the other hand, it sounds like you are going through a very hard time, and it is possible that this is something that you really need (and you also didn’t grow up with it – so it’s not like you are giving up something that you always did).
I once heard a Rav speak about the possuk: והסר שטן מלפנינו ומאחרינו – one has to be careful of the Satan both behind us and if front of us – sometimes the Satan tries to stop us from going too far, and other times he pushes us too far.

I have no idea (and no way of knowing) which one this case falls under. Only someone who both knows you well (or whom you can speak to) and who really understands the halachos can know which one this case falls under.

It does sound like it might be kidai for you to speak to another Rav. There is a big difference between ”heter shopping” and looking for the right Rav to answer a particular question (although it can be a thin line). Don’t look for a lenient Rav – look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities. Look for a Rav who won’t just tell you what to do, but how to do it.

If he doesn’t think you should stop c”y, he will give you an alternative (as DY suggested). And the alternative doesn’t have to be food necessarily. If he does think you should stop, maybe he will have an aitza as to how to do it in a way that is less of a problem.

Hatzlacha and Refuah Shelaima!

DY -First of all, there is a common misconception that you are not allowed to reask a sheilah. That’s not true. (Don’t worry; I ‘ve asked a sheilah about this). If you are asking if a chicken is kosher, it may be different, because once a Rav poskens that it’s treif, I think it becomes treif even if the Rav made a mistake.

But most sheilahs don’t work that way, and if you have a reason to believe the Rav made a mistake, you should ask again.

The question is why you’re reasking the sheilah. If you are reasking because you think that the first Rav made a mistake, then you are allowed to (and maybe should) ask again. There can be many reasons why the Rav may be mistaken.

I had a situation once in which I realized that the Rav was wrong, not because he was lacking technical halachic knowledge, but because it was the type of halachic question that involves an understanding of the person, and he couldn’t relate to me or my situation.
I found out/realized afterwards that while this particular Rav is a tremendous Talmid Chacham and well-respected Poseik, he is not the best Poseik for me to ask halachic questions that necessitate an understanding of people’s emotions. On the other hand, he is a great person to ask sheilahs to when it’s a sheilah in which being less “emotional” is a maaleh.

I had another experience in which I called a halachic hotline, and it was clear that the Rav ( I don’t even know who it was, because they always have different people answering) did not understand the situation. When I tried to reexplain it, he cut me off. In that case, I also realized that I needed to speak to a Rav who I know I could explain the situation to, so I called a Rav who knows me and who was able to understand the situation.

On the other hand, if someone is reasking just because they don’t “like” the answer as opposed to feeling like the Rav didn’t understand their situation, and they make a habit of always looking for the Rav who will give the most meikel answer for each question, that is called “heter shopping”.

As I said, it can be a “thin line” and you have to know yourself and know why you are reasking the sheilah. If you know that you don’t always look for the “most meikel” answer, then there is a good chance that you are not “heter shopping.”

In this case, the reason why it seemed to me that it makes sense to ask another Rav is because it sounds like he is going through a difficult time and he needs to ask the sheilah to a Rav who will understand that and answer him accordingly. If he asks the “right Rav”, even if he does tell him to be machmir, it seems to me that ideally he should answer him in such a way that he will come away feeling happy that he asked and feeling better about the situation, which does not seem to have happened here. He also said that the first Rav didn’t even give him a psak, so there really shouldn’t be an issue here with reasking.

However, if he or anyone else is concerned that they should not be asking again, they can always play it safe by telling the second Rav that they already asked and tell him what the answer was.

just smile – my 2 cents —
I took on c”y 3 or so years ago because I wanted to offer Hashem something very huge as a zchus for something important. I knew it would be very difficult and it has been. Not the milk or milk products per se, but the availability and the ability to nosh on candies and bought cakes at work and in meetings that were very frequently OU-D. Although I still mourn the loss of ice cream, I have found quick and easy recipes for peanut butter cups and kit kats. I have yet to find a replacement for m&m’s but I even bought heavy cream and made my own ice cream and whipped cream this summer.
Having these ‘stand ins’, coupled with the knowledge that I have grown and accomplished is very comforting. Since comfort foods are so much about emotion, why risk feeling awful about “giving in”.

If you really need these things to get you thru some rough stuff, you will obviously need to work that thru from the halachik angle, but emotional strength brings comfort. And since comfort is a state of mind, perhaps there is someone or something you can couple with a different but similar food that can accomplish the same thing.

Either way I wish you strength and recovery and clarity and comfort.

3.“You neglected to mention that he should tell the second rav what transpired with the first.”
In my original post, I hadn’t mentioned this because I didn’t think it was necessary. I added it in the second post only because you seemed to think there was a problem with reasking the sheilah. I don’t think it’s a problem to do so, but if someone (either the OP or anyone else reading this who is in a similar situation) is concerned about that, if they do it this way, then there can’t be a problem.

4.You are making an assumption that the first rav didn’t relate to his emotional state. Meiheicha teisi?
I didn’t say that. I said that he needs to ask the sheilah to a Rav who understands his emotional needs as well as having a good understanding of the halachic issues involved, and if he felt that the first Rav did not fulfill those qualifications and a second one would, then he should reask the question. I did not know if that was the case, but based on the post he wrote in response, apparently, he does think it’s the case.

ZD says CY doesn’t keep as long as CS. That’s changed. I seldom have CY spoil these days (and I almost never get Golden Flow). Of course, if the store doesn’t keep it refrigerated properly (or you don’t) or if you purchase milk near its expiration date, any milk can go bad. I think the expiration date on milk is much further out than it was 30 or 40 years ago, at least in the NYC area.

FWIW, I’ve seen Pride of the Farm at the Inwood Stop and Shop, for a price that’s way more than local kosher stores charge for milk.

In this day and age there is such an abundance of cholov yisroel products how can one feel deprived.

Golden Flow milk freshness lasts just as long as national brand milks.

DY: although I mostly agree with you about “shaila shopping I would like to ask: putting aside the “emotional” issue LU brought up, if a Rav simply avoids paskening for whatever reason, is it still considered a psak?

Unless JS613 is lying, it would seem to me that the Rav wasn’t comfortable giving a heter, but neither did he outright forbid it. That may leave the option of involving another Rav open, IMHO.

Mammele, I don’t think he’s lying either.

I’ve had occasions where a rav didn’t want to give a psak, but instead referred me to another rav.

” I think you are overstepping your boundaries by giving halachic advice where you think you are able to assess a poster’s emotional state. And yes, it’s halachic advice, because the cholov stam issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.”

I didn’t give any halachic advice .And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam. And if you think I did, you need to go back and reread what I wrote carefully.

All I said is that he should speak to a Rav who will be able to give him the chizuk he needs, and not just say yes or no. It is quite clear from his posts (and from the very fact that he felt a need to post about it) that he is going through a hard time and needs chizuk.

YOU are the one who is giving him halachic advice by telling him that he is not allowed to speak to another Rav. As far as I know there is no halacha that he is not allowed to speak to another Rav, so I don’t think you have a right to tell him such a thing. YOU are poskening that it is assur for him to do something with no sources to back you up.

And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam.

You wrote:
According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response, this does not seem to be a halachic question per se’. It is muttar to drink/eat chalav stam and the Rav whom he asked did not say that it’s assur for him to do so. As far as I can tell, the issue is not “Is he allowed to eat chalav stam?” but “Should he do so?”

Dass yachid. How many rabonim have u asked before got a heter to join a blog/ go on line etc?

That was a great response, DY. (The fourth did it.)