October 18, 2017 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1385033
I am struggling with keeping Cholov Yisrael. I grew up eating Cholov Stam and my wife and i took on CY when we got married. I am going thru a tough time now and have thought about eating CS again..opinions?? tyOctober 18, 2017 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1385140
AYLOROctober 18, 2017 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1385299
Not telling you what to do. there are dayos on both sides of the spectrum, but if u decide to switch you may want to consult with a rav about matir neder. Rav cohen from gvul yavetz is very well versed in these halachos.October 18, 2017 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1385294ubiquitinParticipant
” I am going thru a tough time now ”
I am not sure how chalav stam fits in.
If it is a tough time religiously and you want to “scale back” I agree with rebyid, since the issue isnt the chalav Stam
If it is a tough time avoiding Chalav Stam since you feel it is tastier, then go for it (though discuss with YLOR regarding possible need for hataras Nedarim)
If it is a tough time in other areas and Chalav Stam will help you feel better then also go for it (though again discuss with YLOR regarding possible need for Hatars Nedarim, this is easier than the previous scenario)
Regardless, hatzlacha with your tough timeOctober 18, 2017 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1385315
What is so hard with keeping Cholov Yisroel? If you can keep Kosher which is harder to keep(complex Halachos etc.), it should be a piece of cake keeping Cholov Yisroel. Also, there is a wide variety of CY products, so a lack of options is not an excuse either.October 18, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1385355
There is no cholov yisroel shelf stable milk, or sweetened condensed milk.October 18, 2017 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1385356TASParticipant
Moshe, depending on your level of CY, you either have to make sure a OUD product doesn’t contain milk (because CS equipment is fine) or have to avoid it entirely (because CS equipment is a problem). Either way, both can sometimes be inconveniencing. Either way, Justsmile should just ask his LOR, just like everyone said.October 18, 2017 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1385378
@RebYidd23, There is no Kosher Shrimp, Bacon, Cheeseburgers etc. ; therefore your point is moot.October 18, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1385946lowerourtuition11210Participant
moshe1994: Your reply to rebyidd23 is nonsensical and misses the point. There are some products that do not have a CY alternative. As to your comment “If you can keep Kosher which is harder to keep (complex Halachos etc.), it should be a piece of cake keeping Cholov Yisroel.” is not exactly true when someone was brought up on Cholov Stam. There are numerous CS products available that one “gives up” to be CY (some have CY alternatives and some don’t). Kol Hakovod to those who make the switch.
The OP stated “I am going thru a tough time now “. Is it financial, psychological, physical? Nobody on this list knows and it is not anyone’s place to speculate. Rebyidd23’s original answer “Ask your Local Orthodox Rabbi” is the best answer one can give.October 18, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1385953zahavasdadParticipant
CY milk doesnt last as long as Chalav Stam, It expires before the expiration dateOctober 18, 2017 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1386018
Pride of the farm products do not go bad before expiration date unless of course it was kept out or the fridge isnt working right.October 18, 2017 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1386255lowerourtuition11210Participant
ZD: I agree with your comment. Have a CS milk dated “Sell by October 14” that is still tasting fresh.
T22T: To my knowledge Pride of the Farm is not available in the stores in the 5 boroughs (might be in Lakewood). Of the common brands found in Brooklyn, Golden Flow milk probably lasts the longest.October 18, 2017 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1386258
ty, im going thru a tough medical issue and it would be a comfort to eat certain things i used to be able toOctober 18, 2017 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1386409
“What is so hard with keeping Cholov Yisroel? If you can keep Kosher which is harder to keep(complex Halachos etc.), it should be a piece of cake keeping Cholov Yisroel. Also, there is a wide variety of CY products, so a lack of options is not an excuse either.”
First of all everyone is different as far as what is easy and difficult for them, that is subjective. As far as getting cy, Its not a matter of not being able to find cy products. I need it for menucha right now,and truthfully, no there isnt Everything avail in CYOctober 18, 2017 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1386371zahavasdadParticipant
If there are medical issues there is no reason to keep it up, Your #1 issue should be getting well, not worrying about C’YOctober 18, 2017 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1386433
TO set it straight, I am going thru a medical issue which is very physically painful, and aside from taking pain med, the food I used to eat would give me ,albeit momentary, comfortOctober 18, 2017 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1386446
“ZD: I agree with your comment. Have a CS milk dated “Sell by October 14” that is still tasting fresh.
T22T: To my knowledge Pride of the Farm is not available in the stores in the 5 boroughs (might be in Lakewood). Of the common brands found in Brooklyn, Golden Flow milk probably lasts the longest.”
I dont live in NYC and they actually do have pride of the farm avail hereOctober 18, 2017 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1386660iacisrmmaParticipant
justsmile613: Refuah ShelaimahOctober 18, 2017 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1386662
Golden flow milk does last long, but it is nowhere near shelf-stable.October 19, 2017 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1386688☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
If there are medical issues there is no reason to keep it up,
your #1 issue should be getting well, not worrying about C’Y
The question was not about the medical use of a cholov stam product.October 19, 2017 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1387173
btw I did ask a LOR and he was not so positive about me breaking it..Hiwever I know he is very Chomur abt these things. I would ask another Rav though. Im not shopping around for the perfect answer but he didnt give me a psak either wayOctober 19, 2017 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1387178
I would ask another Rav though.
I don’t know how much support you’re going to get for “heter shopping”.
Which foods do you miss? Maybe someone here can suggest alternatives.
Refuah sheleimah.October 19, 2017 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1387330
I can relate to you, because I was in a somewhat similar situation (although there is a definite difference). In my case, I grew up with Chalav stam and never considered taking on chalav yisrael. However, for my entire adult life, I happened to end up living in places where chalav yisrael was the most (or only) available milk, so I ended up only using chalav yisrael when it came to milk, but not when it came to chocolate.
At a certain point, when I was living in Lakewood, I thought that I should take on chalav yisrael because it seemed inappropriate to eat chalav stam in a community in which being makpid on chalav yisrael is so widespread.
But for several reasons, I decided that this was not something that I should be taking on myself. My reasons were probably similar to yours in the sense that I realized that this was something that I need right now and that it wasn’t good for my emotional health and therefore for my Avodas Hashem, to take this on myself right now. And if I want to work on something, there are more important things for me to work on.
However, there is an essential difference between my case and yours, which is the fact that you were already makpid on chalav yisrael. I think that becoming more meikel is very different from not going more machmir, and personally, I think that one should be very wary of becoming more meikel on something.
On the other hand, it sounds like you are going through a very hard time, and it is possible that this is something that you really need (and you also didn’t grow up with it – so it’s not like you are giving up something that you always did).
I once heard a Rav speak about the possuk: והסר שטן מלפנינו ומאחרינו – one has to be careful of the Satan both behind us and if front of us – sometimes the Satan tries to stop us from going too far, and other times he pushes us too far.
I have no idea (and no way of knowing) which one this case falls under. Only someone who both knows you well (or whom you can speak to) and who really understands the halachos can know which one this case falls under.
It does sound like it might be kidai for you to speak to another Rav. There is a big difference between ”heter shopping” and looking for the right Rav to answer a particular question (although it can be a thin line). Don’t look for a lenient Rav – look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities. Look for a Rav who won’t just tell you what to do, but how to do it.
If he doesn’t think you should stop c”y, he will give you an alternative (as DY suggested). And the alternative doesn’t have to be food necessarily. If he does think you should stop, maybe he will have an aitza as to how to do it in a way that is less of a problem.
Hatzlacha and Refuah Shelaima!October 19, 2017 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1387348
I’m sorry for being impolite in my reply yesterday, I was in a bad mood.October 19, 2017 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1387349
Lolmod– thank you so much for that very sensible and thought out response. I think I will take your advice and ask another Rav who fits into the category you mentioned, and follow what he says, ty!October 19, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1387359
There is a big difference between ”heter shopping” and looking for the right Rav to answer a particular question
After you’ve gotten a psak? Explain.October 19, 2017 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1387370
DY -First of all, there is a common misconception that you are not allowed to reask a sheilah. That’s not true. (Don’t worry; I ‘ve asked a sheilah about this). If you are asking if a chicken is kosher, it may be different, because once a Rav poskens that it’s treif, I think it becomes treif even if the Rav made a mistake.
But most sheilahs don’t work that way, and if you have a reason to believe the Rav made a mistake, you should ask again.
The question is why you’re reasking the sheilah. If you are reasking because you think that the first Rav made a mistake, then you are allowed to (and maybe should) ask again. There can be many reasons why the Rav may be mistaken.
I had a situation once in which I realized that the Rav was wrong, not because he was lacking technical halachic knowledge, but because it was the type of halachic question that involves an understanding of the person, and he couldn’t relate to me or my situation.
I found out/realized afterwards that while this particular Rav is a tremendous Talmid Chacham and well-respected Poseik, he is not the best Poseik for me to ask halachic questions that necessitate an understanding of people’s emotions. On the other hand, he is a great person to ask sheilahs to when it’s a sheilah in which being less “emotional” is a maaleh.
I had another experience in which I called a halachic hotline, and it was clear that the Rav ( I don’t even know who it was, because they always have different people answering) did not understand the situation. When I tried to reexplain it, he cut me off. In that case, I also realized that I needed to speak to a Rav who I know I could explain the situation to, so I called a Rav who knows me and who was able to understand the situation.
On the other hand, if someone is reasking just because they don’t “like” the answer as opposed to feeling like the Rav didn’t understand their situation, and they make a habit of always looking for the Rav who will give the most meikel answer for each question, that is called “heter shopping”.
As I said, it can be a “thin line” and you have to know yourself and know why you are reasking the sheilah. If you know that you don’t always look for the “most meikel” answer, then there is a good chance that you are not “heter shopping.”
In this case, the reason why it seemed to me that it makes sense to ask another Rav is because it sounds like he is going through a difficult time and he needs to ask the sheilah to a Rav who will understand that and answer him accordingly. If he asks the “right Rav”, even if he does tell him to be machmir, it seems to me that ideally he should answer him in such a way that he will come away feeling happy that he asked and feeling better about the situation, which does not seem to have happened here. He also said that the first Rav didn’t even give him a psak, so there really shouldn’t be an issue here with reasking.
However, if he or anyone else is concerned that they should not be asking again, they can always play it safe by telling the second Rav that they already asked and tell him what the answer was.October 20, 2017 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1387406
I disagree with the advice you gave for several reasons:
1) You are making an assumption that the first rav didn’t relate to his emotional state. Meiheicha teisi?
2) You neglected to mention that he should tell the second rav what transpired with the first.
3) You are assuming that his emotional state allows him to be meikil on something he was mekabel on himself. Meiheicha teisi?
4) You are assuming that had the first rav understood his emotional state, he would find room to be meikil on cholov stam. Meiheicha teisi? Maybe he holds it’s assur meikar hadin and there’s no room to be meikil.
5) You are assuming that the questioner isn’t simply trying to find a heter. Meiheicha teisi? Even if he doesn’t usually try to find the easy way out, that doesn’t mean he isn’t doing so here.
Your advice to him very much comes across as if you feel (based on situations you’ve been through, which in reality might have little to do with what he’s going through) that the first rav was wrong.
I know you didn’t actually say that, but it comes across that way.
Sitting at your computer reading his post does not qualify you or I to decide on his emotional state and opine that he needs to reask the shailah. He already asked someone in person (who might know him personally) and had the opportunity to present the shailah in more detail than a CR post.October 20, 2017 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1387421🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
just smile – my 2 cents —
I took on c”y 3 or so years ago because I wanted to offer Hashem something very huge as a zchus for something important. I knew it would be very difficult and it has been. Not the milk or milk products per se, but the availability and the ability to nosh on candies and bought cakes at work and in meetings that were very frequently OU-D. Although I still mourn the loss of ice cream, I have found quick and easy recipes for peanut butter cups and kit kats. I have yet to find a replacement for m&m’s but I even bought heavy cream and made my own ice cream and whipped cream this summer.
Having these ‘stand ins’, coupled with the knowledge that I have grown and accomplished is very comforting. Since comfort foods are so much about emotion, why risk feeling awful about “giving in”.
If you really need these things to get you thru some rough stuff, you will obviously need to work that thru from the halachik angle, but emotional strength brings comfort. And since comfort is a state of mind, perhaps there is someone or something you can couple with a different but similar food that can accomplish the same thing.
Either way I wish you strength and recovery and clarity and comfort.October 22, 2017 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1388050
1. DY, I want to preface my responses to your points with the following important point which I think is crucial to an understanding of the whole discussion:
According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response, this does not seem to be a halachic question per se’. It is muttar to drink/eat chalav stam and the Rav whom he asked did not say that it’s assur for him to do so. As far as I can tell, the issue is not “Is he allowed to eat chalav stam?” but “Should he do so?” On the one hand, there’s a hashkafic problem of lessening ones’ standards, and on the other hand, there are his emotional needs. Those are the issues here. This is not a halachic question per se’, but rather a hashkafic issue (as I see it).
2. “You are assuming that his emotional state allows him to be meikil on something he was mekabel on himself. Meiheicha teisi?”
I am not aware of any halacha that says that it’s assur to be meikel on something that you had previously taken on (as long as you do hataras nedarim, if necessary). And the Rav whom he asked did not say that it was assur.October 22, 2017 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1388051
3.“You neglected to mention that he should tell the second rav what transpired with the first.”
In my original post, I hadn’t mentioned this because I didn’t think it was necessary. I added it in the second post only because you seemed to think there was a problem with reasking the sheilah. I don’t think it’s a problem to do so, but if someone (either the OP or anyone else reading this who is in a similar situation) is concerned about that, if they do it this way, then there can’t be a problem.
4.You are making an assumption that the first rav didn’t relate to his emotional state. Meiheicha teisi?
I didn’t say that. I said that he needs to ask the sheilah to a Rav who understands his emotional needs as well as having a good understanding of the halachic issues involved, and if he felt that the first Rav did not fulfill those qualifications and a second one would, then he should reask the question. I did not know if that was the case, but based on the post he wrote in response, apparently, he does think it’s the case.October 22, 2017 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1388052
6. “Your advice to him very much comes across as if you feel (based on situations you’ve been through, which in reality might have little to do with what he’s going through) that the first rav was wrong. I know you didn’t actually say that, but it comes across that way.”
No, not at all, if you read what I wrote carefully. It would be impossible for me to think the Rav was wrong about c”y for two reasons: a) he didn’t give an answer, and b) I am not qualified to have an opinion on c”y.
I think the issue is that you are looking are at the situation too narrowly. You are looking at it as though it is a technical halachic issue which requires a technical halachic response. The issue here is not so much about the halachos of chalav yisrael and hataras nedarim as it is about the fact that someone is going through a difficult time and trying to find a way to deal with it without feeling like he is compromising his Ruchnius, and he needs someone who can guide him accordingly. From what he wrote, he does not seem to have received an answer from his Rav that addressed these issues.
I don’t care if he receives a psak to be machmir or meikel on c”y. My sole concern here is that he should speak to someone who will address the real issues here (the emotional and hashkafic concerns) in a way that will leave him feeling better about the situation whether he is “meikel” or “machmir”.October 22, 2017 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1388122yehudayonaParticipant
ZD says CY doesn’t keep as long as CS. That’s changed. I seldom have CY spoil these days (and I almost never get Golden Flow). Of course, if the store doesn’t keep it refrigerated properly (or you don’t) or if you purchase milk near its expiration date, any milk can go bad. I think the expiration date on milk is much further out than it was 30 or 40 years ago, at least in the NYC area.
FWIW, I’ve seen Pride of the Farm at the Inwood Stop and Shop, for a price that’s way more than local kosher stores charge for milk.October 22, 2017 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1388120
According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response
He didn’t quote the rav, and to me, “wasn’t very positive about it” is a euphemism for “told me not to”.
I really don’t have time to go point by point again, but we’ve been through this before. I think you are overstepping your boundaries by giving halachic advice where you think you are able to assess a poster’s emotional state. And yes, it’s halachic advice, because the cholov stam issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.October 22, 2017 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1388131gildaParticipant
In this day and age there is such an abundance of cholov yisroel products how can one feel deprived.October 22, 2017 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1388137wijnstokkenParticipant
Maybe ask to be matir neder conditionally i.e. until you get through this challenging time.October 22, 2017 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1388138JosephParticipant
Golden Flow milk freshness lasts just as long as national brand milks.October 23, 2017 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1388154MammeleParticipant
RY: Baker’s Choice make something called “sweetened milk cream” which is very similar to condensed milk, I believe. It comes in 10.5 oz jars, which isn’t the typical recipe size, and they still have to work out some quality issues.October 23, 2017 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1388156MammeleParticipant
DY: although I mostly agree with you about “shaila shopping I would like to ask: putting aside the “emotional” issue LU brought up, if a Rav simply avoids paskening for whatever reason, is it still considered a psak?
Unless JS613 is lying, it would seem to me that the Rav wasn’t comfortable giving a heter, but neither did he outright forbid it. That may leave the option of involving another Rav open, IMHO.October 23, 2017 7:00 am at 7:00 am #1388183iacisrmmaParticipant
Joseph: I have both CS and CY milk in my house, stored the same way and the CS milk is still good 3 – 4 days AFTER th last date of sale. That NEVER happens with any brand of CY milk.
gilda: Yes, there are an abundance of products, but not always the same quality.October 23, 2017 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1388205
Mammele, I don’t think he’s lying either.
I’ve had occasions where a rav didn’t want to give a psak, but instead referred me to another rav.October 25, 2017 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1389860
“He didn’t quote the rav, and to me, “wasn’t very positive about it” is a euphemism for “told me not to”.”
He wrote: ” he didnt give me a psak either way”
DY, you have a tendency to comment on (and criticize) posts that you haven’t read (or haven’t read all the relevant posts or read them thoroughly). You have done this to me several times, and I find it very upsetting.
If you read what I wrote carefully, you will see that your points have no place here and have nothing to do with anything I wrote. And you are overstepping your bounds when you criticize my posts without having read them carefully (and in some cases, haven’t read them at all).October 25, 2017 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1389862
” I think you are overstepping your boundaries by giving halachic advice where you think you are able to assess a poster’s emotional state. And yes, it’s halachic advice, because the cholov stam issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.”
I didn’t give any halachic advice .And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam. And if you think I did, you need to go back and reread what I wrote carefully.
All I said is that he should speak to a Rav who will be able to give him the chizuk he needs, and not just say yes or no. It is quite clear from his posts (and from the very fact that he felt a need to post about it) that he is going through a hard time and needs chizuk.
YOU are the one who is giving him halachic advice by telling him that he is not allowed to speak to another Rav. As far as I know there is no halacha that he is not allowed to speak to another Rav, so I don’t think you have a right to tell him such a thing. YOU are poskening that it is assur for him to do something with no sources to back you up.October 25, 2017 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1389865
What I was hoping is that he would find a Rav who would respond in the same vein as SYAG – someone who wouldn’t just offer a halachic psak but would give him the chizuk he needs along with it.
Shkoyach SYAG!October 25, 2017 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1389873
And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam.
According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response, this does not seem to be a halachic question per se’. It is muttar to drink/eat chalav stam and the Rav whom he asked did not say that it’s assur for him to do so. As far as I can tell, the issue is not “Is he allowed to eat chalav stam?” but “Should he do so?”October 25, 2017 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1389878
Let’s say for argument’s sake it’s purely an advice issue. Who says the first’s rav’s advice needs second guessing?
You seem to assume that anyone going through a tough time needs to be meikil. That may very well be true in some cases, but may very well be damaging in others. Perhaps long term, some individuals may be better off holding fast to their standards, rather than slacking off and feeling as if they was too weak and caved in.
It’s not something you and I should be opining, or opining that he should be second guessing the rav to whom he first asked the shailah.October 25, 2017 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1389887
Dass yachid. How many rabonim have u asked before got a heter to join a blog/ go on line etc?October 25, 2017 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1389893
It took four until I got a heter.
The first three didn’t actually say it was assur, they just didn’t think it was a good idea, so I took it as license to keep asking.October 25, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1389899JosephParticipant
That was a great response, DY. (The fourth did it.)October 25, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1389898🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I only got through one post but the irony of this line just jumped off the page:
“And you are overstepping your bounds when you criticize my posts without having read them carefully (and in some cases, haven’t read them at all).”
Is it overstepping bounds to tell someone whether or not they read something?
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