March 20, 2013 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #608704
???? ????? ?????, ?”? – The Main Mitzvah (Marror) is with lettuce.
????, ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? (???? ?????, ??? ??”? ?’ ?’, ?”?
“I have seen many weak people that exert themselves to be Mekayeim Mitzvas Marror with Horseradish, and I don’t know why they don’t just take Lettuce for the Mitzvah”,(Mishna Berura)
So why does everyone stuff their faces with Horseradish turning red like a tomato?????March 20, 2013 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #940607🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
People like proving how macho they are that they can handle large amount of horseradish… I take lettuce and horseradish, but not so much horseradish that my face would turn red. My cousins are usually streaming tears by marror. It’s almost a contest who takes the most.March 20, 2013 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #940608haifagirlParticipant
The problem with horseradish is it isn’t bitter. It’s sharp. They are not the same.March 20, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #940609
We use both, but we’re short (last year one container got soggy and brown), i’ll use only horseradish. Yes, its sharp, but i actually don’t mind it, and have yet to cry from it! I also prefer the sharpest chrain on my fishMarch 20, 2013 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #940610
Every person has their hiddur mitzva. We enjoy a much easier life than our forebears did, and this probably helps some feel the suffering a little more.March 20, 2013 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #940611
Horseradish is the best food that is kosher for pesach. Thats why I eat it. Why do you?March 20, 2013 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #940612
Who said I do? I eat maybe a milligram of marror. Lettuce I like.
Anyone know if I can I eat bitter chocolate instead of maror?March 21, 2013 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #940613
These people are fools.
Maror isn’t horseradish. Lettuce is maror. The Bavli and the Shulhan Arukh are clear that you use hazeret- romaine lettuce- for maror.
Horseradish seems to have been used because they didn’t have green vegetables in Europe and its use is foolishness and lacks halakhic valence.
We use romaine lettuce washed and prepared ahead of time for the sedarim, and eat horseradish during the seuda when we have fish.March 21, 2013 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #940614Israeli ChareidiParticipant
My rebbe used to say that if the mitzva of arba minim were done at home and the mitzva of morror done in shul – the chevra kadisha would have a busy night.March 21, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #940615Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Ahh but horseradish IS bitter. You have been eating the wrong part. Though its hard to find, get one that still has some of the leaves and “stem-y” green parts on top. Clean it well, you dont want to eat dirt. Eat THAT as marror. I assure you, you will not be disappointed. Its bitter like a famously anti-semitic, has been jewish blogger on another website.March 21, 2013 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #940616
Rav Schachter says you’re not Yotzei with horseradish. The Gemara says it needs to be a leafy vegetable. Horseradish is a root.March 21, 2013 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #940617
“Maror isn’t horseradish”
Marror IS horseradish AS WELL.
“Lettuce is maror. The Bavli and the Shulhan Arukh are clear that you use hazeret- romaine lettuce- for maror.”
No they are not. Horseradish is mentioned as far back as the Mishnah- for Marror (called Tamchah). It is also mentioned in the Bavli and the Shulchan Aruch. (where are you getting your info from?)
“Horseradish seems to have been used because they didn’t have green vegetables in Europe”
The Chofetz Chaim (Hafetz Haim) lived in Europe, and says people use Romaine Lettuce ???? ?????, ??? ??”? ?’ ?’, ?”? , so there’s strike 3.
Sam2- ???? ?????, ??? ??”? ?’ ?, says openly that ????”? – (Chrain) is Tamcha, which can be used for Marror. It may not be optimal, but it IS good for Marror. So please verify.March 21, 2013 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #940618
The history of horseradish as marror was investigated thoroughly by a well known talmid chochom agricultural expert almost thirty years ago. He proved that horseradish is not marror, and traced the gradual acceptance of it in northern European Ashkenazic communities where there was no better alternative. Now that we know more, all should use romaine lettuce or what we simply call Hasah, period. The bitter part is the root.March 21, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #940619
You don’t need any living poseq to tell you not to use horseradish. The Bavli and Shulchan Arukh are clear on this.March 21, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #940620
I am sorry, In the first post of this thread, I mistranslated the Mishnah Berurah. So here the correct text:
???? ????? ?????, ?”? – The Main Mitzvah (Marror) is with lettuce.
????, ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ,???? ?????, ??? ??”? ?’ ?’, ?”?
“I have seen many weak people that exert themselves to be Mekayeim Mitzvas Marror with stalkes, and I don’t know why they don’t just take Leaves for the Mitzvah”,(Mishna Berura)March 21, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #940621twistedParticipant
Horse radish left to grow puts out a great head of saw edged leaves, which are pungently hot like mustard greens. The quote above “the leaves” could well refer to the leaves of the horseradish, if not for the fact that in Radin, or anywhere else that there was snow and frozen ground at pesach, the leaves would not be available.March 21, 2013 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #940622
So the YUniks are angry at people who like horseradish. How typical.
Not that I will ever feel the need to defend us to the scientorahlogists, but no one I heard of uses horseradish for marror to the exclusion of all else. So you can all relax with your “fool”ing because you are not describing any reality. People do exclude lettuce from korach for gebrochts reasons, and however you feel about that doesn’t really matter to anyone.
But I remember clearly the days of not being able to get any lettuce besides iceberg, and adding some horseradish helped us imagine we weren’t just eating salad. Personally I eat some horseradish because it tastes better than plain lettuce, romaine or otherwise, and if that bothers you then let loose here and save your therapist the headache.March 21, 2013 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #940623
Squeak: Rav Schachter also says you’re not Yotzei if you mix lettuce with horseradish. He says Asi D’var Reshus Um’vatel D’var Mitzvah.March 21, 2013 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #940624
The gemara actually directly permits the consumption of gebrokts.
It explicitly says that once matza is baked, it cannot become chametz (Pesahim 39b).
The same daf also says that the preferred species to use for marror is chazeret, aka romaine lettuce.
It has nothing to do with science. It has to do with being logical and intelligent and not wanting to be more frum than the Talmud.
Ironically, I know a lot of Hasidim who don’t eat gebrokts, and also clap on Shabbat, carry on Shabbat, make kiddush on schnapps, and do many things against the halakha peshuta.March 21, 2013 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #940625
I guess that would be a problem then if I was Rsv SchachterMarch 22, 2013 2:15 am at 2:15 am #940626
The Gemara says that romaine lettuce, chazeret, is preferable. Rava says chazeret is calles chasa because HaShem was chasa al yisrael, and R’ Shmuel ben Nahmani says “Va’Ymareru Et Chayeihem” alludes to the Mitzriyim like Maror to teach that just like Maror is initially soft and is hard in the end, also the Mitzriyim were initially soft and hard in the end. Lettuce is initially soft, and if left too long in the ground it becomes hard.
And regarding a hashash of gebrokts- the same daf says you are yotzei if the marror is wet (but not cooked, shelukim, or kavush). If they were worried about gebrokts, Hazal wouldn’t have stated you are yotzei with marror that’s wet.March 22, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #940627yytzParticipant
If Romaine weren’t available for some reason, many edible wild greens (available from your local sidewalk or grassy yard), such as dandelion greens, are very bitter. It may sound weird to eat wild greens, but this was commonly done in most cultures until recent times. It’s crazy how many perfectly edible greens grow all over the place — lambsquarters, for example, aka wild spinach, grows everywhere in my area (in summertime), and is quite tasty (not bitter at all), cooked or raw. I use Romaine for maror, but I kind of wish it were more bitter — the Romaine we use today just doesn’t taste very bitter.March 22, 2013 5:03 am at 5:03 am #940628
Dandelion greens and endives are even listed and are good to use.
Endive is bitter.March 22, 2013 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #940629
It is both presumptuous and naive to criticize so-called “scientorahlogists”.
The most important halachic decisions today depend on scientific knowledge. For example, high tech on shabbos (hotels, elevators, etc…), food chemistry in kashrus,shmittah, trumos u’maasros, organ donation, determination of death, infertility, and the list goes on.
Any posek worth his salt must be in contact with scientists, unless he is one himself. Inorganic and organic chemistry, physics, electricity and magnetism, biotechnology, and more all form the basis upon which modern day psak stands. The posek relies on the scientist for accurate and truthful information before paskening, and he knows there’s no other way.
So too with the science and history of marror vis a vis horseradish. A serious ben torah should read up on it and many other topics. He will find not only that many of these agricultural scientists are frum, but they know how to learn too. And in their field, no one understands the sugyas better than them.
There’s a whole scientific world out there, and it is indispensable to modern halachic decision-making. Get to know it, it’s part of Torah.March 22, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #940630
Did you coin that?March 22, 2013 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #940631
Only in English.
They coined the term themselves in Ivrit.March 22, 2013 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #940632☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Squeak, I’m with you here. These baalei gaavah think that what our ancestors have done for decades is backwards folly, and today’s advanced, secularly trained researchers (frum or otherwise) have a monpoly on truth.
This gaavah is what leads them to discard our mesorah.March 22, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #940633
DY: It is no more Gaavadik than those who think that what our ancestors did wasn’t good enough and try to add on or change the Halachah in the other direction. I don’t think Rav Schachter is a Ba’al Ga’avah here. I think he honestly learned the Sugya and believes that one is not Yotzei with horseradish root (he also quoted the same well-known Talmid Chacham that Old Man quoted and said that Baruch Hashem each year more and more people listen and there is less horseradish being used in B’nei B’rak every year).March 22, 2013 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #940634
No, DY, nothing of the sort. Their religion is torah plus science, with equal weights.March 23, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #940635
I spoke over shabbos to the talmid chochom agricultural expert. He is actually quite a bit more than an expert, having been the head of research for the Israeli Agricultural Institute for years.If you argue with him over his field of expertise, he will turn you into horseradish.
I asked him about horseradish leaves and whether they are biter or sharp. He laughed and said that the same chemical that makes the horesradish sharp makes the leaves sharp. Not bitter, sorry. Not marror, sorry.
As far as doing “what our ancestors did for decades” , which is quite a small slice of historical pizza in itself, a little bit of knowledge can reveal alot of tuth. As Reb Doniel mentioned, insisting on practices which are clearly wrong make the system into a chuchah u’telula.
Bottom line. Horseradish isn’t marror, and one should not attempt to fulfill the mitzvah of marror with it. Use romaine lettuce. Ok, be MACHMIR and use romaine lettuce if it makes you feel good being machmir. Use the horseradish for gefilte fish.March 24, 2013 1:24 am at 1:24 am #940636
i was waiting for this to be mentioned. Isn’t it a machlokes if the chazeres is romaine or iceberg? Isn’t that the reason people use horseradish or endives, though it’s not the top of the list of what can be used, because its at least known for sure what it is?March 24, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #940637
Saysme: No. We know that romaine is Chazeres. However, romaine has lots of issues with bugs so the Shailah is whether iceberg is also considered Chazeres.
And speak, your disparaging of Rav Schachter and dismissing his “religion as half science and half Torah” is offensive beyond belief. When you know 1/100th of 1% of the Torah he knows, then maybe you can decide when and if to decide where scientific and historical data can influence our reading of Halachah.
If you don’t know history or context, you can’t even begin to accurately understand Chumash. Or does Chashmal in Yechezkel mean electricity? Of course it doesn’t (well, it can be something similar, but we don’t know). We know that because we know when electricity was invented. This is no different.March 24, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #940638
sam2- ah, thank you. Im going to go bug my brother about this nowMarch 24, 2013 4:48 am at 4:48 am #940639
You check your Romaine for bugs, just as Jews have done for centuries.
What is the obsession with not wanting to check yerakot?March 24, 2013 5:31 am at 5:31 am #940640
If ‘Tamcha’, (3rd on the Marror list in the Mishnah) is not horseradish like the Mishna B’rura says, THEN WHAT IS IT?March 24, 2013 5:52 am at 5:52 am #940641
What is Tamcha?
Probably a type of bitter parsley, specifically gingidion or staphylinus.
Not horseradish, or related to it.
A few salient points:
1. Horseradish was not used at all for marror until Middle-age Europe.
2. Horseradish probably did not exist in Israel during Biblical, or Talmudic times
3. Horseradish is not bitter.March 24, 2013 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #940642The Kanoi Next DoorMember
I’ve always found it ironic how those who preach tolerance and acceptance for every wacky heter are so quick to condemn every chumra. It makes one wonder if they’re really concerned about keeping Halacha pure, or if they’re just trying to make Judaism as light as possible.March 24, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #940643ChachamParticipant
The Chacham tzvi 119 says bfeirush what The “scientists” say. except he adds that according to miktzas chachamim you are yotzeh with horseradish ayin shum http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=829&st=&pgnum=104March 24, 2013 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #940644popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You MO people don’t hold of Rav Schachter anyway.March 24, 2013 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #940645147Participant
Thank you Sam2 for reminding everyone how knowledgeable Rav Schachter shlita is, and what a lack of Kovod haToroh it is to say anything against this Odom Godol. I 2nd motion your remarks Sam2.
As far as why many utilize Horseraddish, it is because Morror biZeman haZeh is mideRabbonon, whereas eating even 1 minifestle insect is a Biblical prohibition, and Horseraddish is probably less tricky to clean out than is say Romaine lettuce.March 25, 2013 12:56 am at 12:56 am #940646zahavasdadParticipant
Rav Aharon Kotler used Iceberg Lettuce.
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