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when i see an elderly or infirm person on the subway i offer my seat, but if theres a woman in the same age group as me is it necessary to offer my seat to her?
It’s always nice to offer a seat, no matter to whom. You can so easily make a Kidduch Hashem.
Absolutely not.
No. Why should you offer her a seat? Is it harder for her to stand than you?
Unless you’re trying to get a date with her.
Um no…
What is wrong with offering a seat? Is there a halacha against it?
Firstly, you may never know if she is pregnant. Secondly, it can be a huge kiddush Hashem… you never know how many “looks” I see being given out on the subway when a frum yid sits and someone else stands. If you are strong and capable of standing on the subway/bus and someone else looks like they could use the seat, no matter the age or gender- offer it! I have seen young men and women who look like they would collapse from their bags, mothers with small children, men who look like they will pass out from exhaustion… and I offer a seat to them.
You never know what physical ailment someone may have and they may not want to open up to a stranger. Just offer if you can.
hss: Nothing wrong with what you describe. But the OP wasn’t making that point. He was asking should a male give his seat to a female, same age as him etc., simply for the reason she is female (i.e. he wouldn’t give his seat to the same male). That is what the respondents are saying no to.
I assume by subway you mean train because I know of no subways with seats.
Stand up for a lady, unless you are infirm in some way. It actually IS harder for some of us to stand on the train. I remember standing up for a pregnant woman with another child, when NONE of the able-bodied men would, They either buried their noses in a paper, or actually closed their eyes when they saw her come in. Sorry, but that is just not acceptable behavior. Our society not only is showing poorer manners, but now you are looking to JUSTIFY that sad state of affairs???? On the plus side, I actually noted a Yeshivah bochur get up for a woman once, and I was impressed and wanted to ask what Yeshivah he goes to.
I would also want to ask what yeshiva he went to- and not send my kids there.
in New York the subways have seats
No, the trains that run in the subway have seats. The subways themselves (i.e. the tunnels) do not have seats.
The Wolf
popa is correct. If a Yeshiva bochor walks on a bus or train and there is no seat available, a BY girl should get up and give hers to him.
I assume your first sentence is agreeing with me, and your second sentence is a new point.
Of PBA was serious, tsk, tsk. If not, then So Right is so wrong yet again. My only exception would be if the bochur was carrying a load of heavy seforim. Otherwise, let him stand, he sits enough all day in Beis Medrash (that’s why they call it YESHIVA).
I heard a story of a Chuseveh Yid in Yerushalayim. He was on a bus when, an older gentleman got on, and being that the bus was packed he decided to give this gentleman his seat. A few stops later a young lady comes on. This gentleman sees her and gets up, as if to give him his seat(the one that was given to him earlier by the Chusheveh Yid). The Chusheveh Yid sees this and sits down quickly. The gentleman looks at him as if he’s off his rocker so,, he explains to him that he got up for him and the _______ fill in the blank. 🙂
Sorry Oomis, I am serious.
I don’t think a man should stand up for a woman unless she is old, pregnant, or there is some other reason why it is hard for her to stand.
I definitely do not buy into the “gentler sex” notion that men should be more respectful to women than to other men, and if any yeshiva is teaching that, they are wrong.
I heard a funny story that happened in Israel.
A guy and his girlfriend got on a bus that was slightly crowded. There was a yeshiva bachur sitting by himself on a bench with only one empty seat next to him. Te girl said she’d get them a seat and goes to sit next to the bachur. He kept on sitting there. Finally she asked him aren’t you not allowed to sit next to a girl? He turned to her and was like, “yeah only pretty ones.”
i was wearing an empire waste dress once on a train from queens to the city and i with my bf and a guy stood up for me cause he thought i was pregnant…i asked my bf if i look fat but he insisted the guy was crazy…lol true story!!!
The subway tunnels do have seats. In the stations there are often benches. (Probably bedbug infested.)
I agree with Popa. No need to get up unless there is a reason to.
If I need a seat on the subway for some reason (like I feel sick or I’m pregnant and am having trouble standing), I politely ask a group of people. One usually gives me a seat.
I think the bottom line here is that you should be on the lookout for people to help. A lady is carrying a child? A student (M or F) with a super-sized backpack? Anyone elderly or disabled? Give up your seat. If it is hard for you to stand, imagine someone else…
Women should not have to give up their seats for a guy, unless he is quite elderly.
For some reason I have seen goyim be more polite than frum yidden… I have seen an elderly lady, she must be 80 or so, and a goy was the only one to stand up and give up their seat. Why shouldn’t a frum yid take the opportunity to make a kiddush hashem?
There is no strict reason for either gender to get up for the other unless there is a need- and then GET UP. However, men might want to take into account the fact that I see more women of all ages falling over when the train jolts than men (even boys)… do they want nice, ehrlich BY girls falling on to them? Maybe there is something about the bone structure of men that they are more stable standing up….
I definitely do not buy into the “gentler sex” notion that men should be more respectful to women than to other men, and if any yeshiva is teaching that, they are wrong. “
While I often agree with you, this is an area where I will agree to disagree. men should be respectful to each other, OF COURSE, but i believe in good manners, and a lady should be treated as a lady. Part of why they are not, these days, is that so many young women unfortunately do NOT act like genteel ladies. But that does not mean men should be ill-mannered boors. One teaches by example. If you act like a mensch on the subway, the people observing you will absorb your act by osmosis, if nothing else. the more Jewish people treat EACH OTHER with derech eretz, the more it will be found in the general society. Derech eretz literally means, the way of the land. It presupposes that the way of the land is proper and considerate.
That was a very nice disagreement.
I agree with popa. The other side of the argument stems from secular societies values.
oomis- well said. there is no reason for anyone to act like animals…
Trying my best- who cares, as long as it doesn’t violate the Torah? There is no halacha that states “I may not be nice to other people” or “I may not ever give up a seat to a man/woman”? Except if you live in NY. Then you are required by the homeowners committee to make sure you are not polite.
Hey sister bear where did u hear that story from (the one on the bus in isreal)
dogo – my friend told me about it that it happened to her brother’s friend or something. Why?
I just feel plain wierd sitting on the subway if there are a lot of other older people then me. UNLESS there are a lot of empty seats or I really need to sit down cuz I was walking forever somewhere.
But as my friends once pointed out while we were on the subway once, nobody is going to sit in that seat anyway. Like if its in between your friend and a stranger. But I don’t know, it still feels weird.
Cause the bachur is my good friend. Hey maybe u know my sis!
Certainly if she looks pregnant, give her your seat. Happens to be, pregnant women could also use the seat even before they look it, although I don’t think there’s a reason to assume every young lady you see is pregnant and not showing. When I was going through morning sickness, I would just ask for it- I looked green enough that I usually got a seat (that, or they didn’t want to risk getting thrown up on if I really was as sick as I said 🙂 ). By the time I hit 5 months, I didn’t have to ask anymore, there was always somebody who stood.
Many people do think mentchlichkeit is a davar assur. Personally, I get up for anyone who looks like they need it, regardless of age or sex. The exception is old people, who I get up for because it’s the halacha even if they look like they could mop the floor with me.
I stopped using NYC public transportation a good while ago…. mainly cuz the last few times I did, I had to ask a young person for their seat cuz I couldn’t stand 🙁 .. I’m not elderly, don’t look THAT old.
but more recently, when I was in Israel using public transportation, I’d definitely get up for someone older than myself who looked like they needed a seat, or even for a pregnant woman if I saw no one else was offering their seat. THEN, someone younger than me would go ahead & offer me their seat.
I’m with Popa on this one. One should give up their seat to somebody who needs it; but I don’t think a woman automatically qualifies.
havesomeseichel:
“What is wrong with offering a seat [to a woman]? Is there a halacha against it?”
Nobody saying it’s a bad thing to do, just that it’s not necessary. After all, is there a halacha for it?
cshapiro i always thought u were a guy.
it depends on ur age whether u shud stand up for a female thats the same age
if you are 17 you shouldnt because at that age they have no problem standing so clearly your motive is to talk to her
if you are 45there is still no need because she can stand fine and she is probably married so you shudnt talk to her
if you are in your 60s than u shud ask her if she wantsa to sit but if she says no dont insist
if ur in ur 80s definately stand up because if u dont she will probably tell you straight to ur face that ur disrespectful for not getting up
I’m suprised how many people don’t know this… the ikkar kiddush hashem is by other yidden. Its a machlokes whether it is possible to make a kiddush hashem by doing something nice for a goy. It is obvious what you should have done.
if the feminist and equal rights movements want to equate women and men, then they can be just as equal and stand in the subway.
I’m suprised how many people don’t know this… the ikkar kiddush hashem is by other yidden. “
People “don’t know” this because it makes more sense that a GOY should be made to recognize that Jews are menschen, because the Jew is usually thought to be pushy and obnoxious by the non-Jew. When we act with derech eretz to people who have not been brought up in our velt, it makes some of them think differently. There was the story told of the Yid who always said good morning to his German neighbor, wh9 barely ascknowledged his greeting. Then the Nazis took this Yid away, and as they were being sent to the right or the left, the Yid recognized his enighbor as one of the Nazi soldiers. he said good morning to him as he always did, and the Nazi looked at him and sent him to safety.
“Its a machlokes whether it is possible to make a kiddush HaShem by doing something nice for a goy.”
Shimon ben Shetach returned the diamond to the Arab. As a result, the Arab praised the God of Shimon ben Shetach. That proves unequivocably that it is possible to make a kiddush HaShem by doing something nice for a goy.
No oomis. yeshivabochor is 100% correct.
Charlie,
Your story does not prove anything unequivocally. Nowhere does it say that it was a kiddush hashem.
I wonder why you suppose that you no more than the rishonim who do agree with you.
You may prefer your understanding, but that hardly makes it unequivocal.
Oomis,
I do not understand the point of your story. There a thousands of stories of yidden who helped people who did not even say hello to them every morning. Or were even nasty to them. And those same jews were not murduring others at the same time.
And I don’t know what type of impression you make, but I find your assumption that Yidden are pushy to be both offensive and untrue.
I find that it is certainly much less so than the general population that I see in the city and using public transportation on a regular basis.
no she might get offended that you think she is pregnant
okay goq i’ll post something just cuz :).
I’m female and not over 60 (not to say thats a cut off age or anything!) and not pregnant, and i do take the subway all the time. i am always super happy to be offered a seat, though i won’t ask, because 1- i am a bad traveler and get less nauseas sitting, 2- i have terrible balance and am one of those who goes flying on short stops (though i have not yet landed in anyone’s lap!), and 3- i have knee issues so its nice to be able to sit instead of locking my knees and hurting them more. -end rant
What really gets me, is how people are so quick to offer their seat to a little child, as if s/he is the infirmest person in society. & then the kid spends 1/2 the time standing up, but no-one dares take the seat in case this child decides to reoccupy this seat.
Even parents will stand up for their child to sit.
Have we arrived to the description on last Daf of Sotah of the Generation totally devoid of respect by the young for the old?
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