April 17, 2018 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1507659
Is there anything to do to prevent it?April 18, 2018 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1508085iacisrmmaParticipant
I don’t know if you can tell the Malach Hamaves to come back later.April 18, 2018 7:25 am at 7:25 am #1508064☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Slow-acting poison can prevent sudden death from a certain point onward.
(Also, general safety precautions are known to lower the rate of sudden death.)April 18, 2018 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1508147jakobParticipant
Teshuva and Tzedaka can prevent death as we all know it says
“Tzedaka tatzil mimaves”April 18, 2018 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1508189
iacisrmma -“I don’t know if you can tell the Malach Hamaves to come back later.”
Actually the Torah requires a human to do everything to prevent death. It’s called Hishtadlus!
What can a person do to prevent an untimely death?April 18, 2018 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1508204MenoParticipant
Wait, are we talking about sudden death or untimely death?
They’re not necessarily the same thing.
Either way, both terms are very broad terms so the question is basically meaningless.April 18, 2018 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1508239
Meno -“Wait, are we talking about sudden death or untimely death?”
I should have written an Untimely Sudden Death!
“Either way, both terms are very broad terms so the question is basically meaningless.”
Health related.April 18, 2018 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1508296
“What can a person do to prevent an untimely death?”
oooh ooh pick me!
Call 911 instead of Hatzalah!!!
did I get it right?
you know owe me a million dollars !April 18, 2018 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1508307Uncle BenParticipant
Oh no! Ubiq, you took the bait, hook line and stinker! Now we’ll have another merry go round, tit for tat endless debate on EMS vs. Hatzolah unless the wise moderators end it ab initio!
Yay!April 18, 2018 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1508326
Ubiq -“Call 911 instead of Hatzalah”
Ya’know it was so good – when you didn’t post here awhile.
Unless you did – is Uncle Ben one of your many SN’s?!?
Your in competition with Joe.April 18, 2018 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1508416feivelParticipant
keep an aspirin in your pocketApril 18, 2018 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1508422
Health, Midwest and others
I don’t understand why people need to be accused of having multiple screen names.
If they do, we have all seen the mods call them out.
And even if the mods don’t detect it, how does that in any way change the argument of the individual.
Either the argument is logical and has merit, or it doesn’t. Address the issue/argument or don’t.
To me, whenever I see one of these SN accusations it tells me the person is deflecting the more logical argument and the accusation merely weakens the accusers position.April 18, 2018 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1508459
feivel -“keep an aspirin in your pocket”
That would be a good idea, if s/o has a heart condition.
I wouldn’t actually keep just one, but a bottle; because ASA goes bad quickly!
I was more asking on the lines of prevention.April 18, 2018 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1508458
mentch1 -“To me, whenever I see one of these SN accusations it tells me the person is deflecting the more logical argument and the accusation merely weakens the accusers position.”
You missed the point – anybody who does such tactics – doesn’t deserve any answer – logical or Not.April 18, 2018 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1508501YW Moderator-25Moderator
Just to comment on the multiple screen names thing, it doesn’t happen nearly as often as some people seem to think it does.April 18, 2018 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1508502
and please follow me on this
maybe, you are making a mistake, the person isn’t doing what you are accusing him of , and he does deserve an answer, instead of a baseless accusation.April 18, 2018 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1508505MenoParticipant
I wouldn’t actually keep just one, but a bottle; because ASA goes bad quickly!
If it goes bad, how would it help to have a whole bottle of it?April 18, 2018 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1508508👑RebYidd23Participant
What about people who use red herring tactics, Health? Or should I rather call you Feivel?April 18, 2018 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1508525Thinking out loudParticipant
The Torah says to do Teshuva one day before you die. And since one does not know when he will die, it means he should do teshuva every day. If a person lives with that kind of cheshbon hanefesh, his death will be neither sudden or untimely. A life well lived, where each day is meaningful, ends at the exact time that the neshama has completed its tafkid on this Earth. Whether that is old or young. Suddenness can be a bracha: Happiness and joy up to the abrupt end. And very little suffering, if any. It is for the surviving family that shock is very painful.
Than being said, living every day with a cheshbon hanefesh, includes utilizing the gift of life fully, which includes taking care of one’s health to the best of their ability.
I am adding this note, just in case this thread was started as a reaction to the news of a “sudden, untimely” death:
Please be careful to be sensitive to surviving family members. It is highly inappropriate to imply that a particular death could have been prevented.
1. Only Hashem knows all the facts
2. Even if you know facts, you don’t know all of them.
3. One can not judge another’s degree of hishtadlus, and whether or not that had an impact on when they were niftar. Some reckless, unhealthy people have outlived some very conscientious, and health minded ones.
4. It is ona’as devorim to question the health, or behavioral decisions of a niftar in front of his/her surviving relatives.
May we all be blessed with long, healthy, and meaningful lives!April 18, 2018 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1508528Little FroggieParticipant
Have kavana by:
ותצילני היום …ממיתה חטופה
I remember my Rebbi telling of a story where a guy was on show, explaining why and how he is so healthy, and strong, how he is going to live till (forgot). And then, right then and there, before all to see, on live TV, he dropped dead. Just like that.April 18, 2018 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1508540
mentch1 -“maybe, you are making a mistake, the person isn’t doing what you are accusing him of , and he does deserve an answer, instead of a baseless accusation.”
First of all – Why are you changing the Topic?
2nd – the only times i accused anyone of multple SN’s is where they admitted it themselves or the Mods called them out on it!
Stick to the topic on hand or start a new one!April 18, 2018 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1508549
Meno -“If it goes bad, how would it help to have a whole bottle of it?”
On the bottle there’s an expiration date. Also if it’s put in a jacket pocket, it’s protected from light!April 18, 2018 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1508565Midwest2Participant
A) I post only under “Midwest2” and I do not have multiple personality disorder.
B) Thinking out loud – thank you for your list of what not to say to someone who has suffered a loss. It is an essential chessed to be sensitive to those who are suffering or bereaved, and even if we feel the need to make sense out of someone’s passing, we must not do it at the expense of hurting those mourning.
C. HKBH runs the universe. There is no such thing as an “untimely” death – only one that on human terms seems unreasonable. So what can we do? Our hishtadlus – good health habits, proper health care, all the things your doctor will tell you or that you can find on cdc.gov – and daven for arichas yomim.April 18, 2018 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1508583yehudayonaParticipant
Don’t walk in front of fast-moving vehicles.April 18, 2018 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1508571MammeleParticipant
Health: In reply to your original question, most of the sudden health related deaths we hear about are heart related. Even if one has no heart condition, it’s good to have an EKG done if there are risk factors. And don’t sit too long on a plane or otherwise. MOVE!
Of course, keep your weight in a healthy range and exercise most days of the week. (If you’re overweight and aren’t successful on your own, see a dietician.) But start exercising slowly, don’t suddenly shovel heavy snow or dance vigorously at a close one’s Chasunah. Even happy times have their stressors, so be extra vigilant about your health then.
Don’t smoke or do drugs and drink in moderation. No binge drinking! (These are my general recommendations for everyone, definitely NOT personal to Health.)
If you think you might be having a stroke or heart attack, call or have someone else call Hatzolah (unless you’re somewhere they don’t cover) not EMS. Know the signs and don’t stall.
If you have any medical concerns or questions, see a doctor – don’t rely on Google.
Have an annual or bi-annual physical based on your (competent) doctor’s recommendation, and do any follow-up testing required.
Don’t forget about your teeth either.
Which brings me to – guard your tongue and honor your parents (if still applicable).
Most importantly, Daven! Don’t obsess about your health, in the end we can only do our hishtadlus, but He’s the One in charge.April 18, 2018 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1508575
“Stick to the topic on hand or start a new one!”
There is no topic at hand. this is another one of your silly game shows where we are supposed to guess what secret (usually made up) answer you have i mind,, that you will then offer to tell for a fee.
The question in the OP is so vague as to be completely devoid of meeting
By “sudden death” do you mean “sudden cardiac death” any cause of death? sure if the sudden death was by jumping out of a plane without a parachute then yes it could probably be avoided (or at least mitigated) by making sure you always wear a parachute when you jump out of a plane. always. no matter how uncomfortable it may feel.
That would without doubt prevent “sudden death”
what is more interesting is this fib you told “2nd – the only times i accused anyone of multple SN’s is where they admitted it themselves or the Mods called them out on it!”
In this thread you said “Unless you did – is Uncle Ben one of your many SN’s?!?”
Where have I admittied or the mods called me out for using multiple screen names?April 19, 2018 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1508609
Mammele -“Health: In reply to your original question, most of the sudden health related deaths we hear about are heart related. Even if one has no heart condition, it’s good to have an EKG done if there are risk factors.”
Thank you! You’re the first one that stayed on the topic.
I don’t recommend an EKG for screening.
Do you or any poster know what is recommended?!?April 19, 2018 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1508687
I’m not changing the topic
I addressed an argumentative tactic that you (and others) use, and I pointed out that it is foolish.
Now addressing your topic
A very chashuv person/posek once told me that he doesn’t believe in these new full body screening exams. The svarah is that many people have latent issues. Cancerous cells or heart issues that can and will go undetected for a lifetime. A person can potentially keep these latent issues from progressing with tshuva etc.
However, the moment it becomes detected, it is now a medical fact and requires treatment. Because to not treat it is now asking for an open miracle.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to people with risk factors for medical issues, because to ignore those risk factors is also a form of asking for an open miracle.April 19, 2018 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1508706
mentsch1 that is a risky approach
with any screening exam you need to weigh the risk and benefit.
CT’s pose risk of radiation, finding benign abnormalities that result in extensive workup (and of course const $$)
Thus for the general public a routine screening CT for lung cancer is not reccomended. however those at higehr risk namely aged 55-80 wit hsignificant smoking history the Benefit > risk based on current evidence.
There is no evidence that “new full body screening exams” provide benefit. that is the reason to avoid them.
Taking your approach not to do any screening unless they are to “people with risk factors for medical issues” is dangerous. All adults should be screened for Colon Ca at the latest age 50. Unless you include ” risk factor” as age (which it is)
though in that case your quote from a Very chashuv posek becomes “dont do screening exams unless recomended by medical evidence” which I agree with, though Im not sure why it needs a “very chashuv person/posek” ‘s backing.April 19, 2018 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1508767
I wasn’t addressing medical science, nor giving my personal/medical opinion
I was presenting a different way of looking at things from the perspective of hashkafah/nigleh
hence the “posek” commentApril 19, 2018 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1508992
mentsch1 -“that he doesn’t believe in these new full body screening exams.”
I agree, but not with other screening tests.April 19, 2018 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1509019
Mammele -“Health: In reply to your original question, most of the sudden health related deaths we hear about are heart related”
What I was talking about was this, that you just mentioned.
Most authorities recommend doing lipid testing starting at 20 y/o.
If within normal range, most hold to repeat testing every 5 years.
Also some people will need Statin medications, for prevention.April 19, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1508999
“I wasn’t addressing medical science, nor giving my personal/medical opinion
I was presenting a different way of looking at things from the perspective of hashkafah/nigleh”
So what are you saying? I’m trying to understand
According to this “perspective of hashkafah/nigleh” Should a presumably healthy person with no symptoms get medically recomended screening tests?
does it matter how dangerous/treatable the disease in question is eg screening for high blood pressure vs various cancers
does it matter how invasive the test is ? Eg blood test vs imaging vs procedure (like colonoscopy).
If you are suggesting not seeing doctors due to bitachon . I understand. But not ot do screening tests unless there is a risk factor, doesnt make a lot of sense to me. Especially as by definition for any reccomended screening test there is a risk factor though that risk might “just” be age.
If you are saying not to do extra screening that isnt medically reccomended (“no risk factors”) as in ““new full body screening exams”” then yes we all agreeApril 20, 2018 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1509298Midwest2Participant
It all depends on the screening tests. You have to have a general practitioner/internist you can trust, and take his/her advice. Don’t ask for something just because you saw it on the internet 🙂 Some tests, like blood tests, are trivial. Others, like CT scans, could add a bit to your lifetime radiation exposure, but are basically harmless. And others, like colonoscopies, are very invasive and have a risk of complications, and should be done only under a doctor’s advice that it’s necessary or recommended, especially for older age groups.
Take your MDs advice. If he/she recommends a test, get it done. If you don’t need it, don’t get it.April 20, 2018 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1509319
“Take your MDs advice. If he/she recommends a test, get it done. If you don’t need it, don’t get it.”
Agreed, completly .
Though mentsch sems to be saying something different beshem “A very chashuv person/posek “, but I dont really understand if and how it differs.
And if it doesnt differ then I dont understand what it adds , as it is potetnially confussingApril 20, 2018 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1509339☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
If you are suggesting not seeing doctors due to bitachon, I understand, but not to
do screening tests unless there is a risk factor doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
I don’t think any legitimate authorities say that an ordinary sick person
should not see a doctor. I also don’t understand why not screening unless
there is a specific reason to doesn’t make sense to you.April 20, 2018 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1509358☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
but I dont really understand if and how it differs.
If the doctor’s opinion is that full screening should be done on someone without any risk factors, because you might as well try to catch a problem if there is one, that would differ from the opinion mentch1 is citing.April 22, 2018 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1509406
“If the doctor’s opinion is that full screening should be done on someone without any risk factors”
Lol I hear. Though that doctor is a bit of a quack. So it could be restated as don’t listen to quacks, but I hear fair enough.
“I don’t think any legitimate authorities say that an ordinary sick person
should not see a doctor. ”
There are but my point is that is consistent I’m not saying I agreed or that anyone today would recommend that.
Just that I understand that approach.
” I also don’t understand why not screening unless there is a specific reason to doesn’t make sense to you.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “a specific reason” no screening test is done for no reason. The reason is a risk factor say based on lifestyles like smoking, family history or age. (something like getting a CT scan for pain is not a screening test and isn’t what we are discussing.April 22, 2018 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1509507
To be more specific
As I said I was addressing the full body scans
There are those that advertise that they can do “full body scans” to check you out and find latent issues
I don’t remember the specific groups or doctors that advertise this, but they tend to be high end NYC concierge type practices (I’ve had a few of my patients go for these scans)
These are non symptomatic patients who want to see if they have any issues, and “address them” before they become big
If you google full body scan you will find what I am discussing
Obviously , an MD ordered test bears merit
Lets keep in mind
In this litigious society, more and more unnecessary tests are being ordered to cover ourselvesApril 22, 2018 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1509457☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Ubiquitin, have you ever heard of the Princeton Longevity Center?April 22, 2018 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1509574
Mentsch1 – “As I said I was addressing the full body scans”
I’m NOT going to discuss this Narishkeit.
But I want to know are all your pts. on top of their Lipid status, at least every 5 years?!?April 22, 2018 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1509669
Thats the one that I was thinking of (I hear their advertisements all the time)April 22, 2018 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1509670Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
“There is no topic at hand. this is another one of your silly game shows where we are supposed to guess what secret (usually made up) answer you have i mind,, that you will then offer to tell for a fee”
Ubiq, you are absolutely spot on!! And this topic (and associated “free” answer) is ridiculous. As if even the newest intern doesn’t know about BASIC bloodwork to order for ROUTINE physicals….. at least I’ve gotten my amusement for the day. I should say though, the most imaginative answer goes to yehudayona. ….. well played sir…..well played. (Or madame)
I will add that the only real positive outcome of this thread might be if people start to ASK about their test results, and not just passively accept that their physician will constantly be on top of their lab values.
CAD out…….April 22, 2018 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1509673
Lets broaden the hashkafic issue
How much hishtadlus is necessary in health
And how much hishtadlus can actually affect the outcome of a persons lifespan?April 22, 2018 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1509683
” have you ever heard of the Princeton Longevity Center?”
Not specifically, though as mentsch says “but they tend to be high end NYC concierge type practices” they take advantage of people willing to pay for expensive tests with absolutely no evidence of any benefit.April 22, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1509687
Mentsch1 -“How much hishtadlus is necessary in health”
What is considered normal is the Halacha!
“BLOOD PRESSURE SCREENING
Have your blood pressure checked every 3 to 5 years unless the top number (systolic number) is between 120 and 139 or the bottom number (diastolic number) is between 80 and 89 mm Hg or higher. Then have it checked every year.
If the top number is greater than 140, or the bottom number is greater than 90, schedule an appointment with your provider.
If you have diabetes, heart disease, kidney problems, or certain other conditions, you may need to have your blood pressure checked more often, at least once a year.
Watch for blood pressure screenings in your neighborhood or workplace. Ask your provider if you can stop in to have your blood pressure checked.
CHOLESTEROL SCREENING AND HEART DISEASE PREVENTION
Men over age 35 and older should be checked every 5 years.
If you have risk factors for heart disease, such as diabetes, start getting screened earlier, at age 20.
Recommended starting ages for cholesterol screening are between 20 to 45 for women.
Women with normal cholesterol levels do not need to have the test repeated for 5 years.
Repeat testing sooner than needed if changes occur in lifestyle (including weight gain and diet).
If you have diabetes, heart disease, kidney problems, or certain other conditions, you may need to be monitored more closely.”
Like I posted previously:
“Most authorities recommend doing lipid testing starting at 20 y/o.”
“And how much hishtadlus can actually affect the outcome of a persons lifespan?”
That’s against Torah outlook. The decree of death can occur in a Moment!April 22, 2018 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1509686
I did some googling
Full body scans were huge in 2000-2002 then dropped off
some places survived
I have had a couple of patients tell me (relatively recently) that they went to some of these high end places and dropped 15K for workup scans/bloodwork/diagnosis etc
of course things turned up that requires further attentionApril 22, 2018 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1509690
So getting back to my hashkafa post
George Burns died aged 100 from old age. As most of us know he always had a cigar in his mouth.
It was said that The chofetz chaim said to the kallah of Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer that long life and health aren’t necessarily synonymus.
How much hishtadlus is even necessary?
Can a person in China go to a clinic and do the recommended treatment of acupuncture for a serious disease and expect the same result as surgery in the US?
Aren’t the years of a persons life predetermined?
(FYI My opinion is , that you can’t rely on open miracles. So a cancer pt cant pray away the cancer. Or use non proven methods like Vit C transfusions. But many tests are becoming standard for litigious reasons not medically necessary ones. And much medical knowledge seems to swing back and forth. So I am undecided on specifics)April 22, 2018 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1509696
You quote nih “Men over age 35 and older should be checked every 5 years.”
Yet earlier (and in the past) you said “Most authorities recommend doing lipid testing starting at 20 y/o.” which isn’t quite accurate (in the absence of risk factors)April 22, 2018 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1509711
mentsch1 -“It was said that The chofetz chaim said to the kallah of Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer that long life and health aren’t necessarily synonymus.”
“How much hishtadlus is even necessary?”
I already answered this.
“Can a person in China go to a clinic and do the recommended treatment of acupuncture for a serious disease and expect the same result as surgery in the US?”
“Aren’t the years of a persons life predetermined?”
YES & NO!
From my post above -“The decree of death can occur in a Moment.”
“(FYI My opinion is , that you can’t rely on open miracles. So a cancer pt cant pray away the cancer. Or use non proven methods like Vit C transfusions. But many tests are becoming standard for litigious reasons not medically necessary ones. And much medical knowledge seems to swing back and forth. So I am undecided on specifics”
My point in Starting this topic is almost e/o agrees that you should know your BP & your Lipid Status!
And Treatment, if there’s a problem, almost always prevents a serious disease.
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