Suicide

Cause it’s easier then pacing the nisoyon

We consider מאביד עצמו לדעת suicide as lack of emunah and is burried separately. I think it means what generally can be tolerated.

Redleg according to the kinnos such behavior is highly commendable

By “true murderer,” do you mean an abuser or that someone had literally murdered them?

Do you have a reason to believe that the suicide’s situation was such that he never at any stage had the ability to prevent himself from sliding downwards? Because if so then his bechira will have been then. I imagine most suicides, although possibly not able to stop themselves at the time, could have taken steps earlier to prevent themselves from ending up in that situation.

What makes you so sure that it is beyond our understanding?

The reason I always knew why most Jewish suicides are not buried accordingly, is because they probably regretted their decision (and did tshuva) in the moments before they died. And it seems the research backs it up. Below is a 2014 Business Insider article. I thought I’ll just copy paste part of it and post, but because it’s so informative and relevant here I’ll post the whole thing, broken up a bit for our dear mods.

“The Role Of Impulsiveness Is One Of The Saddest Things About Suicide

Robin Williams reportedly suffered from severe depression, addiction, and alcoholism before he killed himself at his California home Monday.

We may never know exactly when and how Williams arrived at the decision to commit suicide, but one of the saddest realities about suicide is that it often results from impulsive decisions that might have never occurred again if the person had survived or backed out.

Anywhere from one-third to 80% of all suicide attempts are impulsive acts, according to The New England Journal of Medicine. 24% of those who made near-lethal suicide attempts decided to kill themselves less than five minutes before the attempt, and 70% made the decision within an hour of the attempt.

Last installment from Business Insider article…

“He finally jumped based on the thought that “nobody cares.”

“My first thought was, ‘What […] did I just do? I don’t want to die,'” Hines told The New Yorker.

Then-28-year-old Ken Baldwin, like Hines, chose to hurdle over the bridge’s railing rather than stand on it first because he didn’t want to lose his courage to jump. Although he was severely depressed on that day in 1985, he changed his mind the moment after his leap. “I instantly realized that everything in my life that I’d thought was unfixable was totally fixable – except for having just jumped,” he said.

That indecisiveness is explained by suicidologist Edwin S. Shneidman, according to a review of his works by Antoon Leenaars:

The prototypical psychological picture of a person on the brink of suicide is one who wants to and does not want to. He makes plans for self-destruction and at the same time entertains fantasies of rescue and intervention. It is possible – indeed probably prototypical – for a suicidal individual to cut his throat and to cry for help at the same time.
The period where the chance of lethal suicide is at its highest and most dangerous is relatively short, typically just hours or days rather than months, according to Shneidman.

Of course, not all suicides are impulsive, as some are the result of extensive planning and conviction. Impulsive suicide involving decisions made in as little as five minutes is one of two types generally seen among patients suffering from depression, according to Dr. Charles Nemeroff.

The other type involves “the sort of classic notion that, I’ve been hopeless and helpless for so long. I’m hopeless that I’ll ever be better, and I’m helpless to do anything about it,” Nemeroff said. That type often includes planning, notes, and goodbyes.” End of article.

So Shlomo Hamelch was correct when he wrote “this too shall pass”. Literally, when it looks the bleakest, as long as there’s life there’s hope.

Joseph: even for Capital Punishment, they haven’t yet come up with the perfectly instant and pain free method of killing death-row inmates, so what suicide scenario might that be, where there’s not even a millisecond of time for regret?

The last portion of my article wasn’t posted. Don’t know if it was blocked or my error. Very kosher, perhaps too long? Whoever’s interested can look it up.

I also added that Shlomo Hamelech was correct when he wrote “this too shall pass”.

Basically suicide is a nisoyon like any other, which if allowed to pass without acting upon it (and taking steps to improve your life) the urge will eventually abate. This is not to minimize the grip of depression, but to put it in the long term perspective – and to encourage everyone to CHOOSE LIFE AS IT IS WITHIN EVERYONE’S REACH.

Bottom line, the premise of the OP is – generally speaking – false.

Hanging is considered immediate.

Perhaps a long drop hanging (where death is due to the breaking of the neck) is intimidate, but not short-drop or suspension hanging, where death can take several minutes, is surely not immediate. And, I will add, the vast majority of suicides by hanging are not long-drop.

The Wolf

Even in a long drop hanging, there is the second or so between when the person loses the support that they are standing on and when the rope goes taught.

The Wolf

Joseph
Kitzur SA has a siman on this
As a general rule. If you can imagine it as a case of murder you do or If you can assume mental illness you do.
Based on his lashon it would be very hard to institute halachic suicide (different burial, no shiva etc)
I was in a chevra kadisha for a few years and a couple of cases came up. Both were cases of people that had some instability issues. Both families sat shiva and the mais had a proper burial.
Not to mention that we know from kinnos that there is something as suicide lshem shamyim
And a forced suicide is also considered halachically acceptable ( though I don’t vouch for it being lchatchilla)
Ayin shum bkitzur

Overdose?

the laws of suicide tend to exempt people whose capacity to reason is diminished by a variety of factors including severe depression, painful illness, prior sexual abuse, etc. every situation is different and there is significant pressure on poskim to “exempt” the suicide with the SA’s strictures.

this topic is not appropriate for the make-believe poskim who infest the blogosphere.

Sure, we can discuss it. However, it seems to me this is not a halachic issue but one of hashkafa..
A posek per se won’t resolve it, but if anyone with extensive knowledge about this subject would be beneficial, though I don’t believe it would be conclusive.. 3 different learned people may give us 4 different answers..
Great subject, TC, it was actually on my mind for a while.

I looked it up in kitzur
Hanging is specifically mentioned as an exemption, not bc of regret, rather bc we can assume murder ( people have a chezkas kashrus)
Of course this only applies to the chevra kadisha and not the question of how the mais will be treated in the olam haemes

But the hashkafic question is also contingent on a broader question of perspective. Do we look at the entirety of a situation or at a snapshot of a moment in time .
The person who commits suicide, at the moment of action we can say he was under extreme emotional duress and patur, but maybe the person spent a long time handling his situation poorly . Maybe his response to each nisayon was emotional wrong and thus the despondency with which he finds himself now is of his own creation.

Understanding Mental Illness is a relatively new thing (And we still dont totally understand it)

R’L for anyone who suffers from it

But ultimately the hashkafa and Halacha go hand in hand
It is assur to murder. Even when placed under extreme duress. No need is more overriding then self preservation. Yet if a gun is put to our head and we are told to murder we have to take the bullet. This proves that proper mental training (ie knowing halacha, living halacha) can overcome even the most programmed of reflexes. Thus , in that instant of the most extreme of duress, Hashem holds us liable.
Suicide is self murder . Living halacha should overcome any nisayon.
But the scenario I’ve described is one of quick decision making with a stable mind. But most suicides are a result of mental decline . Whether biological or self inflicted due to poor emotional decision making the person and thus the act is a product of numerous questionable reactions.
Halacha looks at the snapshot of the final act. Was the person in mental decline?
It seems only logical that Hashem mitigates the final act due to the decline, but takes the totality of the poor decision making into the entire din process.

BTMODAD
I spent over a year clinically depressed. I took my self out of it without meds and a psychologist.
It was excruciatingly difficult. It required the most amount of mental concentration I have ever done before or since. I learned a few things about the issue (and myself)
Basically, depression is a narrowing of your world view to include yourself and your problems with limitations on those around you.
I disagree on two points that you made in your previous post
1) that you should focus on yourself. I disagree, that is simply feeding into depression. There is no greater tonic for depression then focusing on OTHERS. do volunteer work and I guarantee that while you are doing it you will forget about your depression.
2) that electronics helps. Distractions (bitul torah) do not feed the soul. In fact I can feel the symptoms of depression return when I waste to much time on a few consecutive days. I have become more of a “learner” since my experience and it helps tremendously. stop wasting so much time and you will see the difference.

Tell me do you feel less depressed in EY? I’m curious

I also recommend reading the garden of emunah and garden of peace
I also recommend exercise, it is impossible to be depressed when you exercise due to the increase in serotonin levels.
Good luck!!

“……As far as the original premise that Hashem only brings a nisayon that a person can handle, I heard that Ramban in Shaar Hagemul disagrees or limits this to specific situations….”

Would be interesting to see that Ramban, but here are parts from Chofetz Chaim’s sefer “Binsivos Hatfilah”…. p. 55, under ‘Laamod B’nisayon & ‘Suffering Yesurim ‘..

…..We say the prayer of Al Tevi’einu Lidei Nisayon each morning , because we may not have the power/strength to withstand the nisayon…
…….From Midrah Tehillim, There were those who who prayed for yesurim , and those who said, Lo Hein V’Lo Secharan because they were afraid they wouldn’t be able to withstand nisyonos… End of Chofetz Chaim’s words… Obviously, not everybody can handle a nisayon..
We also know that David Hamelech asked Hashem to give him a nisayon, but he failed it.

What’s not clear to me is this : Are there degrees of nisyonos, is every tzara ch”v or catastrophic event a nisayon,
or something else? A gezeira of some kind maybe, an onesh??
For example, an enticement to do an aveirah of say, theft, eating non-kosher food, arayos, etc. can arguably be considered a nisayon, and the person will undergo an inner struggle not to cave in…
But is this the same as being slammed with frightening traumas in life, physical & mental, that are more severe and have damaged lives as a result, as I have presented in my first post above, or even as some others have commented here… It is to this type of nisayon , if that’s what it is , that I believe the OP alluded,
and which is a strong question.

Zion
Isn’t the point made that David shouldn’t have asked for the nisayon bc when you ask for it you are guaranteed to fail but when Hashem gives it to you , then you can pass?