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  • #596436

    how is it fair that the kallahs parents hgave to provide all the support if the kallah marries a guy that plans on learning in kollel??? why dont the chossons parents split the cost of living?? its both of their children?? the velt has the crazy minhag of making one side go into tremendous hock, if both families wud split it, it wud be much more manageable!!!

    why is the guy so choshuv that he can demand 30 GRAND YES 30 GERAND, WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS?????????????!!!!!

    and how is it right fior the rabbeim to promote this craziness??????

    #1041695

    HIE
    Participant

    it is nuts.

    #1041696

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Chayav,

    No one forces the kallah’s parents to do anything. If they can’t afford support, then they (obviously) shouldn’t give it.

    The Wolf

    #1041697

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    I think most regular people with heads on their shoulders would split the support. I personally went to work when I was single (gaspppp!!!!! yes I am married with kids and got married at 24 and am shomer shabbos and wear a black hat)and am appaled at the things that kids get these days when they get married. I have 2 married siblings in lakewoods and for the life of me cant understand how they can put the parents and in laws thru this world of supporting them. Does anyone have any self pride left in them. Parents and in laws have to take on second jobs to support their kids. If you can afford to fine – somehow I doubt their is a mtzvah to wear parents to the bone so some guy can sit and learn. You cant all be the next roshei yeshivos of the generation. The exception should be if someone is a real serious learner he should learn. I learn daily and am proud that I am working and supporting a family and think my kids should do the same

    #1041698

    Health
    Participant

    Chayav -Forget 30 grand- for my next time I want 300 Grand. I made the mistake not demanding anything my first time around.

    #1041699

    Brooklyn Yenta
    Participant

    great question!

    #1041700

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I don’t either get it. Didn’t Yaakov Avinu PAY his father-in-law for the privilege of having his daughters?

    #1041701

    yossi z.
    Member

    Hey hey hey let’s not go the other way now I need my money to support myself I don’t wanna pay my in laws lol

    😀 Zuberman! 😀

    #1041702

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Here’s my take:

    If there is a criticism, it is on the parents, not the guy. A guy who wants to learn, needs to either stay single, get his parents to agree to support him, or marry someone who can support him. Presuming we are talking where the guys parents don’t want to support, his only choice to get married is to find someone who will support him.

    As far as the parents, I still think the criticism is better, but still not as bad as it seems.

    There is a presumption that the girls parents are more responsible for support. I would imagine that stems from the notion that support is instead of the wife working.

    However, the wife working really is not enough income for real long term learning, and there really is no logical reason for the burden to fall on one side over the other.

    Bottom line: Don’t like it, marry a working guy.

    #1041703

    123bubby
    Participant

    thats why are 5 boys and 1 girl!!!!!!!!lol

    #1041704

    Ofcourse
    Member

    bored, The exception should be if someone is a real serious learner he should learn. I learn daily and am proud that I am working and supporting a family and think my kids should do the same

    Im impressed! They ought to manufacture more like you!

    #1041706

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “You cant all be the next roshei yeshivos of the generation”

    And therefore the chiyuv of Talmud Torah dissipates? I don’t think it works like that.

    #1041707

    yid.period
    Member

    I heard, and it’s just a rumor, that the shtark boys in YU and the like realized this phenomenon, and in turn plan on doing what “boredinoffice” has done/is doing…

    getting a job that enables them to support their family, and still having kavoua itim…

    #1041708

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    of course

    Thanks – one of me is more then enough as per the people who know me 🙂

    Patur

    The chiyuv is still there but at whos expense? There is nothign wrong with the daf or getting a chavrusah at morning or at night. How many kollel guys hit 35 years old and have 6 kids at home and are looking for a job with a BTL from BMG and can only get starting jobs that pay 40-50k per year. Salaries like that will not support families let alone pay for bar mitzvah, weddings etc…

    This system cannot support itself much longer. What happens when the kollel guys kids get married, who will support – will they Chas Vshalom have to go work because the parents cant cupport them.

    #1041709

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The chiyuv is still there but at whos expense?”

    No one is forcing any girl or her parents to support anyone. They take it upon themselves because they realize that that is how they get schar for limud torah.

    #1041711

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    They take it upon themselves because they realize that that is how they get schar for limud torah.

    …. and those that cannot afford to do so should not do so.

    The Wolf

    #1041712

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    Patur – if you belive that the parents do it because they belive you are so much more removed from reality than I can imagine. Do you really think parents are supporting because of the schar or because if they dont support their precious child may not find the perfect shiduch. Is it possible that every parent thinks that each of their children is supposed to sit and learn. I find that unlikely. Why did my parents/inlaws/uncles/grandparents not sit and learn. Did this genration suddently become learners of epic proportions that every person has to sit and learn for 10 years?

    #1041713

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    boredinoffice

    Are you upset at people who value learning?

    #1041714

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “…. and those that cannot afford to do so should not do so.”

    Then they have to find a different way of getting their schar. Perhaps learning themselves.

    #1041715

    o you really think parents are supporting because of the schar or because if they dont support their precious child may not find the perfect shiduch.

    Because the schar (by and large by far).

    Is it possible that every parent thinks that each of their children is supposed to sit and learn. I find that unlikely. Why did my parents/inlaws/uncles/grandparents not sit and learn.

    Parents, naturally, want better for their children than they had for themselves.

    Did this genration suddently become learners of epic proportions that every person has to sit and learn for 10 years?

    Like mentioned by PAA, they want limud Torah as much as possible, even if their parents didn’t have that same opportunity or missed it for whatever reason.

    #1041716

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “There is nothign wrong with the daf or getting a chavrusah at morning or at night.”

    Learning an hour a day is great but it’s definitely not the ideal. The gemara in Brachos says that the people who made their work keva and their learning arai, neither was fulfilled.

    #1041717

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    Patur – not at all. I happen to have a number of siblings living in Lakewood and one of them is the real deal. I have been been giving him a check almost every month for a while now. I am getting a piece of his learning and I am helping stay in yeshiva. I do not give my other siblings because I dont think that they are real learners. Let me be clear – I have no issue with learning and am all for it and am all for people going to kollel. I do not believe that all the guys sitting in Yeshiva are meant to be sitting and learning. they are causing unneccessary strain on the parent and inlaws that struggle to provide. we are a nation of cookie cutters and conformists. Not everyone should be learning and be supported.

    The kesuba also speaks of husbands supporting families and providing not parents in laws/wives slaving all day?

    #1041718

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I do not give my other siblings because I dont think that they are real learners”

    And how exactly do you judge who is a real learner and who isn’t?

    #1041719

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Do you really think parents are supporting because of the schar or because if they dont support their precious child may not find the perfect shiduch”

    That is a fabulous catch 22 – the parents have to support the boy learning because otherwise their daughter won’t get a good shidduch (the boy that’s learning). So if they really aren’t doing it for the schar then let them just not support the learning boy and then their daughter won’t get the wonderful shidduch with the learning boy that they don’t want anyway. So according to your wonderfully circular logic, how does the problem ever start?

    #1041720

    as a girl in the parsha, i’ve been wondering the same thing! e/v question here is one that i have thought of. 1) why is the support the girls parents responsibility?

    2) who do kids think they are to ask this,no, EXPECT THIS, from her parents?

    3) when the couple starts marrying off kids, who’s gonna pay? is the new phrase gonna be “zaidy and bubby are supporting” or “elte zaidy and elte bubby are supporting” it’ll hit hard when there isn’t an elte zaidy and bubby, or a zaidy and bubby to support anymore. then what happens?

    so personally (not that anyone cares or should care) but i will b’ezrat HaShem be working, my husband will hopefully be learning and working, and the rest is up to HaShem. but i would never demand or expect money from my parents. it would be bread of shame. and it wouldn’t be fair to my parents.

    #1041721

    klach
    Member

    OH MY, all you genius posters have finally figured it out. And all the gedolim and roshei yeshivos missed it. Quick run and tell them so they’ll close down their society draining, shidduch crisis causing,anti-Torah horrible institutions

    #1041722

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “who do kids think they are to ask this,no, EXPECT THIS, from her parents?”

    You make it sound like these boys are making unreasonable demands. What is unreasonable about a boy saying “if you want me to learn (so that you can get schar), and therefore I can’t support my family because I’m busy learning; someone else will have to support the family.” It might be the wife or the parents or the in laws. But you can’t play both sides of the fence. If you want a learning boy then you’ll have to pay for it. And if you don’t want a learning boy then why are you reading this thread?

    #1041723

    boredinoffice
    Participant

    @Patur – 1.It is my money therefore my decision. 2. Let us not be naive to say that one cannot tell the difference between a benchwarmer and someone who is a real osek btorah. It is clear as day who a real learner is and one who is “doing time”.

    I dont know how the problem starts but it continues when a boy will not want to even date a girl without getting a support committment for at least 5 years before going out one time.

    Can I assume you are learning in yeshiva and are of marrigable age?

    #1041724

    Chayav,

    No one forces the kallah’s parents to do anything. If they can’t afford support, then they (obviously) shouldn’t give it.

    The Wolf

    wishful thinking, if they dont give it, they dont get the guy!!!!!

    #1041725

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wishful thinking, if they dont give it, they dont get the guy!!!!!

    I hope to God that I’ve raised my daughter with enough sense to realize that if she’s seeing a guy whose going to decide whether or not to marry her based on any amount of money that I “must” give, then she’s obviously seeing the wrong guy.

    The Wolf

    #1041726

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    i love that men learn all day but i feel like if everyone does then who will there be to support the nextt generation? what’s right :(?

    #1041727

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    wolf

    It would be reckless to marry someone without a plan of how to get food on their children’s plates. With that premise, If you aren’t going to marry her once you decide she’s your “bashert”, why date her at all?

    #1041728

    mosherose
    Member

    “I hope to God that I’ve raised my daughter with enough sense to realize that if she’s seeing a guy whose going to decide whether or not to marry her based on any amount of money that I “must” give, then she’s obviously seeing the wrong guy.”

    In other words youve already decided that your daughter cant marry a learning guy. Shows how much you value torah learning.

    #1041729

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Where is it written that person who isn’t learning full-time doesn’t value Torah learning? There are plenty of working people who sacrifice to be kovea ittim. How many kollel yungermen would get up at five in the morning so they can go to a shiur? Give up time to relax after work to learn with a chavrusa?

    How many people in the alter heim were able to sit and learn full time? Are you telling me that none of them valued the Torah? If that were so, we wouldn’t be here (in the frume velt) today. We’d be assimilated. Period.

    How many of these full-time learners would be able to conquer the nisyonos that working men have, much less what our forebears suffered?

    #1041730

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m reading through this thread (recently linked in PAA’s glitch thread), and, ironically, I find myself agreeing with his perspective more than the others’, but I would take it a step further.

    First, there are at least three issues brought here:

    1) Why there is support altogether (this is the one PAA was discussing).

    2) Why the burden falls on the girls’ parents. I don’t like popa’s reason, but I don’t have a better one, and although probably society should make a change, individuals need to deal with reality.

    3) To quote the OP, “why is the guy so choshuv that he can demand 30 GRAND YES 30 GERAND, WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS?????????????!!!!!”.

    I will address #3 together with #1.

    Now, this is my perspective, (which I am NOT trying to thrust on anyone else), and I think it is the perspective of many parents who plan to support.

    I think PAA is correct that I get s’char for my support, but the question remains, why my son in law? Why not pick out the finest needy talmidei chachomim to support (as many in fact do)?

    I think the answer is that I am making an investment in my future doros. I think I am increasing the chance of having future generations who are b’nei Torah by having my daughter marry a man who desires to spend years dedicated to learning, especially if he’s able to do so.

    It’s not a guarantee, and many who don’t learn in kollel will raise generations of ehrlich Yidden b’nei Torah. I still think it’s a good investment, especially given the circumstances and nisyonos of the times we are living in.

    Not because he deserves it; because I want it.

    So if my daughters want to marry kollel men, it would be my privilege to do my part to help, if be”H I am able.

    #1041731

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    The one time you agree with me, I disagree with myself.

    #1041732

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Well I don’t completely disagree with my former self. I mostly disagree with my tone. (This is an example of what I meant in my comments thread when I said “Additionally, several of the quotes here are from threads from three years ago when I first joined the coffee room, and I may have said some things in the follies of my youth which I would not say now.”)

    I do agree with myself that it’s a catch 22.

    And I pretty much agree with what you’ve said now.

    And once you brought up a thread from three years ago, check out this http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/getting-rid-of-the-status-of-moser#post-263556 which I believe is the first pun using my name in the coffee room and it was made by………………………… ………………………………… DaasYochid!

    #1041733

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why?

    #1041734

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I explained in my not yet approved post.

    #1041735

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You are allowed to support your son-in-law

    but

    1. You shouldn’t have to

    2. You should support your own son or daughter first.

    #1041736

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because traditionally by Jewish shidduchim the Kallah’s family provides the Chosson a dowry. This, essentially, is that dowry.

    #1041737

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    PAA, what’s wrong with your tone?

    Cute (but I don’t use those smileys any longer).

    Lior, I have a kashya on that – why only kollel men, then? Also, a dowry was a lump sum, this is ongoing help.

    RebYidd23, nobody is forced, and if I’m supporting my son-in-law, I’m supporting my daughter. I also hope that to some degree, my children-in-law will be considered my children.

    #1041738

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: The more desirable Chassanim would naturally receive larger dowries. Being that a learning boy is (as a practical reality, without debating why) a more in-demand shidduch, he will get a better dowry. Which in this case effectively translates into a pre-agreed set period of support.

    Non-Kollel Chassanim tend to essentially get a dowry in that the Kallah’s family is bearing a much greater burden for the cost of the wedding and perhaps the startup costs to get the couple on their feet. (i.e. in EY it might be an apartment or elsewhere furnishing, etc.)

    #1041739

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Particularly these two posts:

    And therefore the chiyuv of Talmud Torah dissipates? I don’t think it works like that.

    Are you upset at people who value learning?

    I would not write like that nowadays.

    #1041740

    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: What prompted your change in opinion that causes you to sing a new tone?

    #1041741

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Learning boys are not more desirable to everyone, and those who desire an earning boy are not giving such a “dowry”. It is clearly a matter of practicality.

    #1041742

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Since your connection to your son-in-law is through your daughter, you shouldn’t call it supporting your son-in-law if you are supporting your daughter.

    #1041743

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I hear you. I suppose I am calling it supporting my son-in-law because according to the kesubah, he is the one who needs to do the bulk of the earning, so I would be substituting for him, not her. This is actually why I don’t think popa’s theory is correct.

    #1041744

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    PAA: What prompted your change in opinion that causes you to sing a new tone?

    Well three years ago I wasn’t advocating any position vis-a-vis suport; I was just discussing the issue of wanting a kollel son in law without having to pay for it. The reason why I sing in a new tone is (I hope) that I am a better person than I was three years ago, or at least that I am more cognizant of the fact that there is a person at the other end with feelings even in an anonymous forum.

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