Supporting Avoda Zara

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  • #707474

    And yes the trinity and the literal am haaretzishe interpreatation does contradict yichud Hashem al pi halacha, and one who believes in that…

    #707475
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Yup. 🙂

    It’s not a Zohar issue, it’s an understanding of their concept of the trinity.

    How do you think the Pope, for example, would explain it?

    #707476

    The way mainstream christianity (with exclusion of some protestant groups) would explain the trinityis that there is one God but he takes on three literal forms chas veshalom that is avodah zarah mamesh!

    #707477
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    is one God but he takes on three literal forms

    Explain please.

    Perhaps the athanasian creed?

    #707478

    Ummm I don’t know if this is allowed on ywn 🙂 but why don’t u just read wikipedia if u r so interested?

    #707479

    I hate to make this suggestion, but perhaps since the Rambam lived in Arab countries he was more free to say kushta demilsa and call xianity avoidah zarah, but the French Toisfos were censured by the xians ? as France is a christian country (or was now atheist and Muslim :))

    #707480
    charliehall
    Participant

    Tam Mahu Omer wrote,

    “It is avodah zarah to daven to something even if you believe its just and intermediary.”

    Not true. We have prayers to angels in our own liturgy.

    #707481
    charliehall
    Participant

    Ben Torah,

    You ignore the position of HaMeiri, which was supported by (among others) Rabbi Y. Y. Weinberg z’tz’l and Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l.

    #707482
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tam:

    Never said it wasn’t Avoda Zara.

    Just arguing as for the reason why.

    If you don’t care to discuss, that is OK with me.

    #707483
    charliehall
    Participant

    Tam Mahu Omer wrote,

    “I hate to make this suggestion”

    Don’t worry, many others have made that suggestion before you.

    #707484
    charliehall
    Participant

    An even more significant issue is that Orthodox Christian Churches are among the largest private landowners in Eretz Yisrael.

    Still more significant is that the embrace of political evangelical support by Jews has been interpreted by non-evangelical Christians as chas v’shalom an endorsement of evangelical Christianity over other forms.

    #707485
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Dr. Hall:

    Most of those who “Daven to angels” will tell you they only want the angel to carry the prayer to the Throne (if they are not simpletons).

    #707486

    i havent read the whole post sorry. gavra i dont mind discussing it. i just hope the moderators dont mind. i dont really get your question of pleaseb explain. what was bothering you? and charlie hall, we do not chas veshalom pray to angels. if you r talking about the slicha malachei rachamim , reb chaim volozhinert says not to say it. and even the ones that say it farenfer themseles. and go ahead pray to the sun, chas veshalom. its ossur. in fact the rambam says thats how a”z started by people praying to malachim and stars as emissiaries and stuff.

    #707487
    charliehall
    Participant

    gavra,

    And Christians will give you a similar answer when they pray to *their* intermediaries.

    #707488
    charliehall
    Participant

    gavra wrote,

    “Explain please.”

    I personally think Christian theology is inexplicable.

    #707490
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I gave the best answer I was told, but YWN doesn’t allow it through. Understandable.

    #707491
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tam:

    It is what makes Xtianity Avoda Zara.

    I’m going to agree with you that it should not be discussed here (after I deleted a few paragraphs regarding it).

    As Dr. Hall said, “I personally think Christian theology is inexplicable”.

    But I would rather make fun of it.

    Take a look at all the Slamim that are in pawn shops. Or how even they decided in ’64 to turn over the whole religion 🙂

    They don’t really believe in it themselves.

    #707492
    charliehall
    Participant

    “charlie hall, we do not chas veshalom pray to angels. if you r

    talking about the slicha malachei rachamim , reb chaim volozhinert says not to say it”

    That indeed is what I was referring to. You just can’t pilpul away the fact that it is a prayer directed towards angels. I personally follow R’Chaim on this, but most people do say it.

    #707493
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” Or how even they decided in ’64 to turn over the whole religion “

    Their business, not ours. Read Rov Solveitchik’s “Confrontation”.

    #707494
    Homeowner
    Member

    Wolf,

    I generally appreciate your postings, but come on! The YW Coffee Room is not a bes din as you surely know.

    So what’s the point of your message? If the “psak” of the Coffee Room is that either you quit your job or you’re chayav malkos what will you do?

    #707495
    Moq
    Member

    He’s curious. He’s trying to start an interesting halachic discussion. Presumably he will ask his own Rav on his own time.

    Most of Rechavia (and much of downtown Yerushalyim) pays land rent to the church. But I think we should steer clear from christian theology and just treat it as shituf; this is a totally open board. The shviggers can figure it out themselves.

    #707496
    charliehall
    Participant

    Another interesting A”Z shilah:

    Alternate side parking is suspended today in NYC because of a Hindu religious festival. Are we permitted to park where we would normally not be permitted to, or is that taking advantage of the existence of an A”Z festival?

    #707497

    I wouldn’t.

    #707498
    twisted
    Participant

    “is not meant to be taken by us commoners literally” courtesy of TamMHO. Of course this doesn’t stop many who should know better from publsihing snippets of Zohar wherever they please, including in the siddur.

    Case in point: I shop for shabbos in the shuk mahane Yehuda, where a collector for a Kabbalist Yeshiva collects on frequent rounds that coincide with my shopping. I figure they learn standard Torah there, so I give a five, ten or twenty shekel donation. He obviously gets generally less, because he is more than happy to see me. He always offers a receipt, which I refuse, saying receipts are from shamayim. I also refuse the leaflets he always offers for shabbos reading, claiming I have enough to read, and I hurry away. Once he caught me sitting down at a local Mincha, and I accepted the leaflet. I found in it a small piece, a quote from Zohar, on a pasuk in Emor that applied a clear reference to Hashem to a certain person. To me, the commoner, this seems like outright kefira if nothing worse. I need a shayla chochom about continuing to give this mosad tzedaka.

    #707499
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I generally appreciate your postings, but come on! The YW Coffee Room is not a bes din as you surely know.

    I do indeed know that. I wasn’t asking for a p’sak halacha, I was asking for thoughts, opinions and ideas.

    So what’s the point of your message? If the “psak” of the Coffee Room is that either you quit your job or you’re chayav malkos what will you do?

    You mean kares, not malkus.

    In any event, no — I’m not going to change my behavior based solely on the opinions of the CR members. I don’t think anyone was expecting me to.

    The Wolf

    #707500
    Homeowner
    Member

    Okay, Wolf, in that case, I don’t think you need to leave your job. 🙂

    Based upon some of what’s posted here, I hope there are no heimishe people who don’t pay their hospital bills at institutions such as St. Luke’s, Lutheran, or Methodist. Could that be the real reason why St. Vincent’s (owned by the Archdiocese of New York) went bust? Just kidding.

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