Supreme Court Rules – States Can Ban Abortion
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- This topic has 92 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 2 weeks ago by ujm.
June 24, 2022 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2099995
Roe vs Wade has been overturned.June 24, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2100016
Baruch Hashem!June 24, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2100018
As I pointed out that they are endangering the poor who cannot afford to travel will get it in a back alley. The Tzitz Eliezer permits it by the Jews in certain circumstances.June 24, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2100036June 24, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2100040young rechnitzParticipant
This is great news from everyone’s perspective because it gives power back to the states which is something we need more of. Also even if you think abortion should be legal the libs have been claiming for a long time that it is a right from the constitution without any eve Odense of that. Trumps actions coming up bigJune 24, 2022 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2100077
In 13 States abortion is illegal effective today. Anyone commiting an abortion in those states will find themselves imprisoned.June 24, 2022 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2100081
“Endangering the poor”
Easy solution; don’t do the thing that makes them have to get abortions. Sin has consequences.June 24, 2022 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2100083
Reb Eliezer, Medicaid will often pay for abortionsJune 24, 2022 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #2100086n0mesorahParticipant
There will be more abortions next year than any year in the last thirty years. Which fits well the neo-conservatives idea of morality.June 24, 2022 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2100091
If the goyim want to murder their own children, it really isn’t our problem. After all, shedding innocent blood is a minhag by them, and as long as it isn’t our blood being shed it doesn’t affect us directly. How many lives will be saved is open to debate, but if we consider that most people born today are likely to earn several million dollars over the course of their lifetime, the long term macroeconomic impact of more births might be quite positive. It also might influence the zionists in Eretz Yisrael who tend to look at America for guidance as to what they should aspire to.June 24, 2022 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2100095CTLAWYERParticipant
“This is great news from everyone’s perspective…”
WHO ARE YOU to assume you can speak for everyone. It does not apply to me.June 24, 2022 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2100096CTLAWYERParticipant
“Anyone commiting an abortion in those states will find themselves imprisoned.”
Your crystal ball is cracked!
Committing a crime does NOT equal imprisonment.
One must first be arrested, charged with a crime, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced.
Plenty of people commit crimes and are never imprisoned. A professional lifetime as an attorney has shown this to be true.
there will be jurisdictions where the police will not get involved, where the state’s or district attorneys will not prosecute, where juries will find defendants NOT guilty, where judges will give sentences of fines and/or community service and not prison,
You are truly ignorant of the realities of the legal system.June 24, 2022 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2100111
avira, what about rape and incest?June 24, 2022 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2100118
Reb Eliezer, People in one state can go to another. Under the Constitution, persons have Freedom of Movement within the United States. The cost of transportation is well under the cost of an abortion. I suspect we will again (as was the case 50 years ago) see travel agents offering package deals for “abortion tourism”. Already some blue states are looking forward to offering women from red states the opportunity for a combined vacation and killing their baby.June 24, 2022 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2100117
Reb Eliezer, rape and incest is no more an excuse for abortion than if she became pregnant as a result of her immorality.June 24, 2022 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2100127
“You are truly ignorant of the realities of the legal system…”
CT Lawyer: I’m certain R Yosef is fully aware but is just getting off on eliciting his usual trollish responses. As noted elsewhere, Kavanaugh’s concurrence today was explicit on the right to travel out of state for abortions in states such as New York and yours where it is entirely legal. In fact, a law just enacted protects medical providers and patients seeking abortion care who come to Connecticut from other states along with expanding access to abortion in Connecticut.June 24, 2022 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2100129
> Roe vs Wade has been overturned.
Roe was overturned. Wade – won.
For those concerned, this is not a gezirat malchut, the issue the being returned to the democratic process, like many other issues in this country. Most states have reasonable laws for most issues lately (excepting slavery 160 years ago). CA is not (yet) arresting people for owning businesses, and AL is not arresing people reading Das Kapital. So, they will figure out this also, hopefully. some states might be pushing for extreme positions now, because of political stagnation, but will do some accommodations later. At the end, each state will get what their voters deserve, and those who really really do not like the result – they can easily move. Just be grateful for all these painless freedom options that this great country provides.June 24, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2100135
ujm, did you read what Avira said? He said that sin has consequences, so I asked, I think, rightfully, did they sin when incest was committed or rape? He did not say what you said, so I would have not mixed in.June 24, 2022 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2100133
The dangerous part for liberals – in 19 years, growth of number of voters in red states. This is already happening based on ideology and has a scientific name “Roe effect”, and now it will further increase red state population, leading to changes in electoral college.
Another question – some hope that Dems will be so outraged that they’ll drive to elections this November. (Well, given gas prices, maybe they need to be bussed). From rumors, even Trump is afraid of that. From experience, though, Rep base is showing up more for social issues, while those Dems who did not vote so far do not really care much. Maybe because Rep social agenda is positive for a normal human being, while the slogan “let’s make sure a girl in Alabama can get rid of her baby if she can’t afford to feed her” is less motivating.June 24, 2022 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2100156young rechnitzParticipant
If the baby is a living being it does not matter if it was incest. Do you think it is okay to kill a mamzer????June 24, 2022 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2100155
AAQ: The question is whether the increasing population in red states are coming from blue state voters, diluting the red state voting base.June 24, 2022 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2100171
ujm, a good question:
most increase will be in the most restrictive states and those are very pro-Republican, so it should not dilute much. Economic migration from high tax states to the free states is a bigger threat. Maybe states can introduce taxes on new arrivals only if they vote same way as they voted before, although there are some technical problems with this approach.June 25, 2022 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #21002481a2b3cParticipant
Shocking amount of ignorance in these comments.June 26, 2022 10:24 am at 10:24 am #2100412hujuParticipant
To CTLawyer: I agree that ujm does not understand the legal system. He does not know much about the rest of the world, either.June 26, 2022 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2100423
CT, you knew what ulm meant ( although in New York committing a crime definitely doesn’t usually entail imprisonment).
Quite frankly, I’m surprised you did give one of your condescending lectures as to how things are done in your town and your compound.June 26, 2022 10:35 am at 10:35 am #2100425
BTW, CT proabortion women presume to speak for all women. Any objections to that?June 26, 2022 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #2100476ohrchadash1Participant
Rabbi Bachrach (Chavat Ya’ir, no. 31) was asked by a certain errant woman who sinned promiscuously, became pregnant and had regrets. Would she be permitted to abort? He cited the above mentioned Talmudic source (Arachin 7a) and permitted her to do so in order to save herself from a life of agony.
The famous Rabbi Ya’akov Emden (She‘ilat Ya’avetz I:43) was asked a similar question by a married woman who sinned promiscuously, and gave her a similar permit to terminate the fetus. However, he concluded his words with the cryptic statement, “Any wise person can understand that lechat‘chila it is prohibited to kill, although Bet Din does not administer capital punishment for killing fetuses”.
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe, Choshen Mishpat II:69 par. 2) claims that, with the above statement, Rabbi Emden recanted from the permit. But Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg (Tzitz Eliezer IX:512 part 3) understood his words as teaching that if not for grave circumstances, one should not easily permit abortions for just any minor reason (such as financial distress of a woman seeking career advancement etc.).June 26, 2022 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #2100480
AnonJew: Your gratuitous use of the term “proabortion” women presumes to speak for all woman who believe that every woman should be able to make her own decision on terminating an unwanted or risky pregnancy, rather than having the outcome forced upon her.June 26, 2022 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2100499
Gadol – 99% of the time it’s not being “forced” on her. She did something she’s old enough to understand the results of. Live with it and don’t kill.June 26, 2022 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #2100500
Rav Moshe writes…
but but but..the tzitz eliezer! Let’s run to this sefer that you probably can’t quote a single psak therefrom besides thia, a sefer rhat was written by a big person but who had no more influence in the Jewish world than dozens, hundreds of legitimate poskim.
But rav moshe, who literally shaped klal yisroel in America abd abroad, where without him, we’d have no hadracha in the 20th century after the Holocaust…
But but but….June 26, 2022 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #2100505
Gadol, I quite frankly couldn’t understand what you’re trying to say. My point is that not all women support prochoice; there are any number of organizations run by women that oppose abortion.
One other thing, the statistic being thrown around that 55% of Americans support abortion. However, it turns out that when asked if they support late term abortion, the approval % drops significantly.June 26, 2022 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2100515
Polling data would find that Americans are wildly against most of the 7 mitzvos being capital offenses. Does that matter? Are Americans’ views what we base our values or sense of normalcy on?
I agree it’s a lot easier to live modern Orthodox lives where you are as integrated as possible with goyim if you think like them, but what relevance does that have to the rest of klal yisroel who never considered it, and only asked “mah yomru hamitzriim” when it’s about kovod shomayim?June 26, 2022 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2100546
The Tzitz Eliezer has twenty one shut volumes where his rulings are very well logically justified who was the Rav for the hospital Shaarei Tzedek. At his laveya, his sefarim where carried after him. He served in Beis Din Hagadol together with Rav Eliyoshov ztz’l. My Rebbi, the Hadhauser ztz’l, later Wiener Rav would have called him a A Kapacitet, a capacity of knowledge, being someone important in medical and halachik views and a talmid of Rav Issar Zalman Meltzer, the father in law of Rav Aharon Kotler ztz’l, so Avira don’t dismiss him. See en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Eliezer Waldenberg for a description of him.June 26, 2022 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2100548
Avira > Americans are wildly against most of the 7 mitzvos being capital offenses.
Actually, I did rough estimates, 5 out of 10 comm on the havero side are ordered according to popularity in current society if you take them literally: a tiny percentage of people kill, with increasing frequency going further.June 27, 2022 8:51 am at 8:51 am #2100604
Reb E, no one’s dismissing him. Being rov of a hospital is wonderful. Writing teshuvos is also great. Having government rabbinical jobs is neither good or bad, it’s just a parnosa, it doesn’t show gadlus. He was a legitimate posek and i use his sefer myself(not that he needs my haskama).
But in the big picture, he was one of hundreds of influential rabbonim in the 20th century. Rav Moshe was one of…3 or 4, who built up klal yisroel after the war, and was on the level of an early acharon in learning. He’s up there with the chazon ish, brisker rov, rav aharon kotler, and maybe one or two others.June 27, 2022 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2100617Amil ZolaParticipant
Consider me a pro abortion woman, I only speak for myself.
On another related subject, hopefully these states that are making abortion illegal will also use the law to enforce child support laws from the moment of conception.June 27, 2022 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2100618
We will know z’man moishiach is imminent when we go a week here in the CR w/o debating weather Reb A was a bigger talmid chacham or more chashuvah than Rav B, or a more influential posek etc. etc.
Aseh l’cha Rav (Rabbanit) and stick with him (her) until you have reasons not to.
P.S. Just trying to elicit a response on a slow, cloudy Monday AMJune 27, 2022 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2100634
Not everyone followed Rav Moshe in everything, mechitza, chalav yisrael…June 27, 2022 11:04 am at 11:04 am #2100640
Court also ruled this morning that denominational prayer by public employees is OK in public events like football games, school meetings, etc.June 27, 2022 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2100647
Sometimes we want to understand what is the range of acceptable opinions especially on controversial social topics that are not yet fully resolved. No need to shortcut the debate by saying that nobody could argue with r Moshe. Same way so many found ways to go directly against an even greater (with apology) r Moshe’s position on Shanda of getting $ for Torah teaching, not even learning.June 27, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2100671☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
AAQ, are you drunk again (still?)?
R’ Moshe was very much in favor of taking money for learning or teaching.June 27, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2100681
to Gadol hatorah “Court also ruled this morning that denominational prayer by public employees is OK in public events like football games, school meetings, etc. ”
Baruch ha-Shem. I can make a bracha (and wear a yarmulke) in public even if I’m a government employee and “on the clock”. In many countries, including at least parts of Canada and France (all of which are major western democracies) that would be illegal. I think the militant secularists (the “freedom from religion” crowd, which is dominated by the descendants of OTD Yidden) went to far in trying to ban Christians from public life, and the backlash against the secularists benefits us frummies.June 27, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2100684
Amil – there’s no child expense to pay from that time, so why don’t money? Also, you’re assuming that the torah’s position is that a life begins the moment of conception, because the only two perspectives you’ve heard are “my body my choice” and “life starts at conception”. The first one sounds better, and it’s “empowering” so you go with it.
The gemara says that until 40 days there’s no neshoma. Many states also want to restrict it to about that time, when a fetal heartbeat can be detected.
Also, for “strong independent women”, why do they need child support?June 27, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2100691ubiquitinParticipant
“Not everyone followed Rav Moshe in everything, mechitza, chalav yisrael…”
And on this issue, in practice it isn’t followed either.
“rape and incest is no more an excuse for abortion than if she became pregnant as a result of her immorality”
That is one poster’s (ok more than one poster’s) opinion. In practice EVERY such case I am aware of the Rav asked paskened an abortion should be done. Granted it is very very very rare (I can count on one hand) but unfortunalty rare doesn’t equal never.June 27, 2022 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2100704
“The Jewish Bible identifies human life as a soul placed (breathed) within a body by G-d Himself, with inestimable sanctity and value.” That is the authentic Jewish view, as determined by Rabbinic texts and legal codes stretching back to Sinai. We support Heartbeat Laws and other efforts to distinguish between tragic cases of abortion due to medical necessity, as compared to disregard for fetal life as simply the mother’s “choice.”
Reversing Roe v. Wade would not ban abortion, as alarmists insist—on the contrary, it would restore this policy decision to the hands of the democratic governments of the individual states. We hope that more states will be able to enact reasonable restrictions, and restore America to a posture of valuing all human life.June 27, 2022 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2100705
June 24, 2022 — Coalition for Jewish Values (CJV), representing over 2,000 rabbis in matters of American public policy, today welcomed the U.S. Supreme Court decision reversing Roe v. Wade. The organization made the following statement:
Judaism regards all human life as sacred, including when a fetus is yet to be born. Jewish law permits abortion only in truly extraordinary circumstances. This does not describe the situation in America today, where the overwhelming majority of abortions are done as an elective procedure.
The dialoge needs to change: if everything is a human right, then, in the end, nothing remains worthy of special protection. We must return to a society that cherishes human rights, and human life.June 27, 2022 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2100712jackkParticipant
Israel Loosens Abortion Regulations In Response To Roe
The new rules, approved by a parliamentary committee, grant women access to abortion pills through the country’s universal health system and remove a longstanding requirement that women appear physically before a special committee before they are permitted to terminate a pregnancy.
Who could have foreseen that?June 27, 2022 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #2100715
Many leading Modern Orthodox Rabbis and Organizations were part of the original pro-life movement fighting in response against the 1970 NY abortion law, and for legislative vote repealing it two years later.(Vetoed by Gov.Rockefeller)
In 1970 when NY was voting in favor of abortion, Nash Kestenbaum, then president of Young Israel , personally lobbied against the pro abortion law. Right after the law was passed, Rabbi Joseph Karasick,president of the OU, and Rabbi Bernard L. Berzon, president of the Rabbinical Council of America, issued a statement jointly stating “In Judaism, the life of an unborn child is sacred, and only when It is a threat to the mother can the moral issue of abortion be resolved. For each person to decide arbitrarily, on the basis of economics or convenience, whether a fetus is to survive is literally for man to play God and is religiously blasphemous and socially destructive.”
In 1972 the RCA’s policy‐making executive board of 80 members unanimously urged repealing of NY’s abortion legalization law . These were Rabbis who had been practicing when abortion had been banned and, based on their actual experience with abortion bans, did not share contemporary panic over the potential that statutory abortion ban would limit halachically acceptable abortionsJune 27, 2022 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2100713
The stated goal of the rally is to proclaim that “Abortion access is a Jewish value, plain and simple.” Its real goal, however, is to gaslight broad swaths of the country, and to provide cover for secularist elites. The rally’s organizers, sponsors and supporters wish to render the killing of a fetus a religious liberty “right” and, at the same time, promote the dangerous fiction that a rational pro-life position violates the “separation of church and state.”
In situations where termination of pregnancy is necessary to save the mother’s life, it would be offensive to claim that such a basic humanitarian concern is uniquely tied to a particular religion. Is chemotherapy a “Jewish value?” What about access to X-rays or organ transplants? The panoply of sponsors, then, are not addressing the actual underlying debate. They are rallying to demand, in the name of religion, elective feticide until the moment of birth.
According to a didactic tale, a well-meaning person once asked a rabbi, “If you were to bless a pig, would that make the animal kosher?” “No,” the rabbi replied, “but it would make me trayf (not kosher)!” Jewish values are not determined by an alphabet soup of Jewish organizations, but by an immutable and transcendent code of Jewish spirituality, ethics and law. And that Jewish code is clear that life and the soul precede birth. In Genesis, for example, Rebecca is told that her unborn twins have distinct natures (25:23). In the Prophets, G-d informs Jeremiah, “Before I placed you in the womb I knew you, before you left the uterus I sanctified you, I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (1:5).
Moreover, Jewish tradition insists upon adherence to the Oral Law, in which the Mishnah provides moral instruction that a mother must be saved even at the expense of her child, if necessary, “because her life precedes his life” (Ohalos 7:6). Read that again, because the NCJW, the lead sponsor of the rally, refers to this Mishnah without quoting its explicit reference to the “life” of the fetus. Inexplicably, in the same paragraph, NCJW claims that, under Jewish law, a fetus is “not yet having [a] life of its own.”
This is shocking, and shameful. Still worse, other major Jewish organizations and even “rabbinic” groups signed on as rally sponsors, despite the NCJW’s perversion of an obvious statement in Jewish law.
Every citizen has a democratic right to advocate a public policy position, but it is wrong to misuse or mistakenly invoke the First Amendment. Unfortunately, many American Jews have so utterly lost sight of that which Judaism holds dear that they have elevated their own progressive agenda to the level of faith, likely to fill a resulting spiritual void. This rally, led by those who cherry-pick, decontextualize and distort Jewish law to support their position, will draw from those ranks. As mentioned earlier, no Orthodox organization will be at the rally.
This dichotomy between authentic Judaism and idolization of the progressive platform manifests itself in other ways, as well. In several weeks, the Jewish world will celebrate the 3,334th anniversary of G-d’s giving of the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai. Jews who faithfully adhere to the Mishnah’s teachings will pray in synagogues around the world, celebrating what we believe to be G-d’s greatest gift. Yet, even conceding that I have no special talent for predicting the future, it is quite certain that not 5% of the attendees at the “Jewish Rally for Abortion Justice” will fully observe this annual festival of Shavuot.
Even holding faith aside for a moment, common sense should also have its say. Visit a neonatal ICU, and you will meet babies who cannot yet breathe on their own or ingest nutrients. Yet they are learning to recognize and find comfort in familiar voices, music and their own thumbs. Doctors and nurses work around the clock to ensure that these babies go on to live normal lives. It is utterly nonsensical to argue that a fetus, in precisely the same situation during a routine pregnancy, is not alive.
The transparent and patently dishonest message of the “Jewish Rally for Abortion Justice” is that valuing life is neither a matter of common sense nor an American principle, but rather a parochially Christian tenet—and, further, a tenet that constitutes a violation of the much-ballyhooed “separation of church and state.” Balderdash. In fact, the sanctity of life and the importance of traditional morality both come directly from the Hebrew Bible. Thus, all Americans, especially of the Abrahamic religions, should reject the progressives’ position, predicated as it is upon the absurd notion that it is somehow unconstitutional for the moral values of the citizenry to be reflected in the laws that govern our society.June 27, 2022 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2100733Bshtei_EinayimParticipant
B’H – Female babies will now have the right to choose their own life – not have some male or female determine what happens to their body. Rights of baby women B’H have been restored. Kol Hakoved. The gruesome murder, in most cases unwarranted according to the 7 mitzvos that apply to non-Jews and certainly to Jewish people – will now stop. Hopefully, we will move back to a culture of life and only allow squeezing the life out of a baby for extraordinary permitted circumstances according to the Torah.
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