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I’m curious – how often are you asked to daven for the amud (both during the week and on Shabbat / chagim), and how often do you say yes? I guess you should also throw in the size of your regualr minyan.
You’re supposed to decline accepting the amud three times before agreeing to it.
Joseph–Remember, that does depend on the situation. e.g, if you’re the best qualified to daven in those circumstances, you don’t have to refuse even once.
I daven from the amud 3 tefillos every 2 days.
No one is particularly interested in my croaking.. Last time was… I can’t ever recall!! Weekday – probably many, many moons ago. Shabbos – years.
the last place you would find my husband is before any group anywhere (outside of our dining room) so he never chose the amud. And particularly with davening, he is of the few who feel that slower is better. Now he is in availus and he was relieved to find a minyan that already had someone with a chiyuv at the helm.
On Shabbos/Yom Tov, I daven whenever they ask me. I do not seek it out.
During the week, I do not daven for the amud (even during the year I was an avel I did not) because during the week I daven in a Nusach Sefard shul and I daven Nusach Ashkenaz and I did not want to risk mixing up nuschayos.
(Note that for Ma’ariv, where the only change was the Shir HaMa’alos at the beginning and an additional few words in kaddish, I did daven when asked during the year of aveilus, even in the NS shul.)
The Wolf
about ten times a year
Is there an inyan for an avel who doesn’t daven for the amud to find a minyan with an avel already davening? The end result is the same.
I would think if someone is not comfortable with being shaliach tzibbur, he can daven wherever he wishes.
DY– Don’t know if there’s an I tan that way, but I have seen different people being very machmir or very makil regarding this. I personally try to daven from the amud(unless I’m worried I’ll be too slow/fast, different nusach etc), but I try to always give another aveil the chance to daven. I don’t want to try give an Aliya neshomo through causing machlokes
Of course there’s an inyan to daven (and you make a correct and important point that the inyan of keeping shalom is bigger).
I’m discussing a situation where one won’t be davening, let’s say because he stutters, or has eim’sa d’tzibbura. Should he davka try to find a minyan where there is another chiyuv?
Why would a stutter stop someone from hungrily hunting?
?? ??? ????
ut I try to always give another aveil the chance to daven. I don’t want to try give an Aliya neshomo through causing machlokes
That was my approach as well, but not just with regard to other aveilim. I didn’t daven for the amud if there was anyone else who wanted to – avel or not.
The Wolf
I think that’s taking things too far.
I think that’s taking things too far.
You’re entitled to your opinion.
My policy is to not daven unless (a) asked to or (b) no one else wants to. I don’t voluntarily put myself before anyone.
The Wolf
Extremely hard, almost impossible to have KAVANAH while Davening for the Amud. Or even not for the Amud but I digress.
Wolf, I don’t think that policy is halachically correct.
My weekday minyan is quite small so we tend to have regulars for each day of the week, unless someone has yahrzeit, is in sloshim or a visitor offered the amud.
That said I tend to daven for the amud on Tuesdays. This has only gone on since 2009 when my father Z”L was niftar. We have a family minhag that one doesn’t say even a reader’s kaddish while both parents are alive, I didn’t even daven for the amud on my Bar Mitzvah all those years ago.
For many years I lived in another CT city. The shul I belonged to was the result of a merger between Litvak (nusach Ashkenaz) and a Russian (Nusach Ari) shuls. The Litvak name went first but the shul davened Nusach Ari. I davened with my trusty old Tikun Meir Siddur–nusach Ashkenaz. For years the shammos tried to get me to daven for the amud and I always refused. He tried to sweeten the deal by saying I could daven my nusach. It never happened.
Now that middle daughter is to be wed soon and SIL will be in the neighborhood (working for me) I hope he’ll take over Tuesdays–he has a much better voice.
Wolf, I don’t think that policy is halachically correct.
Can you please elaborate on why it is halachically wrong to allow others to daven before yourself?
The Wolf
I mean when one is a chiyuv, and one is not, which is what it seemed you were referring to.
Unless there are extenuating circumstances, an avel should daven for the amud where there is no equal or bigger chiyuv.
A yid should daven for what he wants. So If I really wanted the amud, I might daven for it. Or perhaps if the amud was broken I can daven for it to be fixed.
I am in avelas so I am davening from the amud three times a day except Shabbos & holidays. If there are other chiyuvim we split the davening up. If they want to do the whole thing I let them, it not worth the fighting. Although once when a stranger came in right before davening and wanted to replace me, I just spoke to a couple of friends and had a minyan in a side room which was allowed in that shul.
Before this I would daven for the amud, Shachris usually Sunday, Mincha at work at least twice a week. If you wait around until someone volunteers to go up it can take a few minutes, so in order to speed things up we setup a rotation as to who goes up and this way we can get to work on time.
I mean when one is a chiyuv, and one is not, which is what it seemed you were referring to.
I believe the chiyuv is on the congregation to give the amud to the avel, not on the avel to actually daven if he does not want to.
The Wolf
Your not davening for the amud, your davening before the amud. Normally I would say that the amud doesn’t neeed your tefillos, but today I think they do.
??”? ??”? ??”? ?’: ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x6956
See here also: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46540&st=&pgnum=387&hilite=
Your not davening for the amud, your davening before the amud. Normally I would say that the amud doesn’t neeed your tefillos, but today I think they do.
You are correct. Thank you.
The Wolf
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x6956
See here also: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46540&st=&pgnum=387&hilite=
So, I guess the whole year I said kaddish was just a waste. 🙁
Excuse me while I go be sick.
The Wolf
Chas v’shalom! Saying Kaddish is not a waste!
It’s just that the Kaddeishim in the middle of davening accomplish even more.
Hashemisreading,
Your not davening for the amud, your davening before the amud.
You’re nitpicking, but you’re not literally removing lice from your head 🙂
I think “for the amud” is an expression, not meant to be taken literally.
I think we should start thinking more about what were saying. Maybe its because we always said daven for the amud that it caused an ayin hara on the amud, and thats why now they really need our tefillos.
Generally very rarely asked. My morning minyan is fast and I am not, and I don’t have the voice or nigunim for Shabbos. I will daven mincha and maariv when asked or whenever no one else goes over to the amud. I wish more people who cannot daven, either because of their Ivre, voice or nusach would decline.
Saying Kaddish is not a waste!
You should look at the source you posted.
The Wolf
Which one, what part?
What I see says ???? is ????? ????, so ???? is still ????? (is beneficial).
Which one, what part?
The part I copied in my quote. Paragraph Gimel, the end.
And to head you off, yes, it’s not a waste to say kaddish. But it was a waste for the purpose for which I was saying it to begin with.
The Wolf
I’m not understanding you.
The Rama, or the Nitei Gavriel?
Which words?
What was the purpose for which you said Kaddish?
The Rama, or the Nitei Gavriel?
The NG.
He states that the mourner’s kaddish only helps (i.e. is a tikkun for) children.
The Wolf
Wolf, that’s not what it means. It means that the reason they originally were m’saken (instituted) Kaddish Yasom was for children (and others who for whatever reason cannot daven as shaliach tzibbur).
It actually is a quote from the Rema. My previous quote of and link to the Rema were actually out of context, so I’ll requote and link bl”n when I get a chance. Sorry.
??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x6957
I will translate (he previously stated that an avel does not serve as shalich tzibbur on Shabbos and Yom Tov; parentheses are my own):
However, on weekdays, one who knows how to daven (as shaliach tzibbur) should daven, and it is more beneficial (for the deceased parent) than Kaddish Yasom, which was only instituted for minors (to say, since they cannot serve as shaliach tzibbur).
Anyhow, your Kaddish was certainly a benefit for your mother a”h.
Note that for Ma’ariv, where the only change was the Shir HaMa’alos at the beginning wolfmusings:- I have an important message for you:- Shir haMa’alos at beginning of Ma’ariv, is not exclusive to Nusach Sefard. Jekkes who pray Nusach Ashkenaz also recite Shir HaMa’alos at commencement of Ma’ariv, even during Chol haMoed.
As for how often I am on Omud:- Every Minjan I attend, even semi regularly, they already know I am cut out for the Omud, & I am almost never able to escape the Omud. Even as soon as I was over my 11 months, I could not even escape the Omud a day or 2 after that. Even during my Aveilus, the Rabbi Paskened I had a Din of a regular on Omud, and not to lead services for an entire year on Shabbos or Yom Tov, would constitute Aveilus beFarHesyo, so I had to continue on Omud even during Sheloshim let alone for entire 12 months.
These past few years, I haven’t even been able to escape from Tephilas Tal, even when exhausted from Seder nite.
The total probability for all men davening by the amud is 1.
Whenever I’m asked (yes I am Bar Mitzvah)
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