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According to numerous news articles, the European Court of Human Rights has agreed with Swiss authorities that prepubescent girls must attend mandatory mixed school swimming classes (after puberty, girls can be exempted). The authorities had fined the parents of two Muslim girls, and the parents had gone to court to overturn the fines.
Is the frum community in Switzerland concerned about this? If I’m not mistaken, Orthodox Jewish organizations often file friend of the court briefs involving religious rights for other religions.
That is sick! But I wonder why these girls are in a coed school in the first place? Or are there no other options for Muslim girls in Switzerland?
LU, while it is not according to halacha, it is not sick
Except for the unpleasant real estate dispute in Eretz Yisrael, we have a lot in common the Muslims.
“Except for the unpleasant real estate dispute in Eretz Yisrael…”
Surely you don’t mean to say that’s the only difference between Jews and Muslims.
No different than public schools teaching about education to prevent STDs, or Families with two Mothers/Fathers, etc. which already exist in most of the western world. If you don’t like it, home school or send to private school.
Akuperma, only on the most superficial level.
The punitive measures prescribed in the Torah, most notably capital punishment, were intended as statements of value. Their implementation was most frowned upon.
We do not seek to convert the rest of the world to Judaism; the Torah provides a path for all people to reach HKBH as they are.
The Torah teaches that the ends never justifies the means; we do not employ terrorism or any inherently reprehensible tactic to achieve even the loftiest of goals.
Teaching people things is different from forcing them to do things.
I am likely among the more liberal Coffee Room denizens and I agree with lilmod ulelameid that this is sick. It is unquestioned even in secular society that it can be uncomfortable for women to wear bathing attire. Here, there is a clear, widely observed religious stricture that coincides with the widely recognized secular sensibility. The state should make accommodations for its religious citizens. In this particular case, Switzerland allowed the girls to wear “tznius” bathing suits, which makes it far less egregious. But it is still a bad idea, IMO, to favor something as random as swimming lessons over religious observances.
As far as the comparison to sex education, I don’t love mandatory sex education either. But at least the case can be made that it is necessary to ensure that children learn the things they need to know and that we know from experience may be difficult to teach. That does not apply to swimmming.
The Europeans haven’t changed much in 2000 years.
They’ve been practicing religious coercion the whole time; the only difference is first they coerced you to be Catholic, then some of them coerced you to be protestant, now they coerce you to be atheist.
Teaching people things is different from forcing them to do things.
Not by Ervah, and certainly not if there is a textbook or examples.
Some of the commenters who consider Muslims to be “animals” or “subhumans” should weigh in on the question presented by the opening poster. And don’t make me name names, because I can (but I am lazy).
You seem to be drastically mistaking the issue. How does swimming before puberty compare to instruction on liberal issues? They are clearly stating that everyone swims together but if you are uncomfortable to swim mixed gender, then as soon as gender difference comes in to play (post puberty) we will freely exempt you.
For a public school, this rule doesn’t seem like forcing anything on anyone.
“For a public school, this rule doesn’t seem like forcing anything on anyone.”
It is against their religion. No one should force anyone to do something against their religion. And there are gender differences before puberty.
“LU, while it is not according to halacha, it is not sick”
I meant that it is sick to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs or against their tznius sensitivities. This falls into both categories.
“No different than public schools teaching about education to prevent STDs, or Families with two Mothers/Fathers, etc. which already exist in most of the western world.”
Okay, so those are also problems.
“If you don’t like it, home school or send to private school.”
I don’t know if it’s reasonable to expect someone to home school their child because the public school is acting against freedom of religion. It’s not necessarily a realistic option for everyone.
But as for private school, that was my question. Why would someone who is so concerned about religious issues send to public school in the first place? Perhaps there are no local Muslim or non-religious private schools so they had no choice? Or maybe they couldn’t afford private school? Either way, the public school has a responsibility to not force people to do things against their religion.
Veltz Meshugener +1
Huju: “Some of the commenters who consider Muslims to be “animals” or “subhumans” should weigh in on the question presented by the opening poster. And don’t make me name names, because I can (but I am lazy).”
I’m not exactly sure what your point is, Huju. Can you clarify? Are you trying to say that if they care about tznius, they can’t be animals?
Or are you trying to say that if are animals, they can’t care about tznius?
Regarding the first point, I don’t think that one point has to do with the others. Someone can have one good middah and another bad middah.
Also, the fact that many or most of them are animals doesn’t necessarily mean that they all are. Personally, if I ever said anything about muslims being animals, I certainly did not mean it that way – I was referring to those that are terrorists or support terrorism which is not 100% of the population. I certainly would not assume that a little girl in Switzerland is a terrorist. But even if she is, that is a separate issue, and does not give the authorities the right to force her to do something against her tznius sensitivities.
Regarding the second point, the truth is that a lot of the so-called “tznius” amongst Arabs is coming from the wrong place and is actually very twisted and is coming from pritzus not from tznius. However, that is regarding the men and not the women, and in any case, does not necessarily apply to every person in every case. It is very possible that the girls really are uncomfortable going mixed swimming and if that is what they claim, they should be believed and it should be respected.
I don’t know if it’s reasonable to expect someone to home school their child because the public school is acting against freedom of religion. It’s not necessarily a realistic option for everyone.
Being that they teach evolution…… it is not “freedom of religion” to insist that the services provided to you by the state in a neutral manner are free of anything against your religion.
“Are you trying to say that if they care about tznius, they can’t be animals?
Or are you trying to say that if are animals, they can’t care about tznius?”
This reminds me, “had the torah not been given, we would have learned tznius from the cat” (Eruvin)
“LuL, the children in question presumably aren’t Arabs. They’re of Turkish origin.”
I know. I was just trying to figure out what Huju was talking about.
“Switzerland isn’t exactly a bastion of religious freedom. Shechita has been banned since 1894. Muslim boys who refused to shake hands with their female teachers were denied citizenship.”
I didn’t know that, but it still doesn’t make it okay. There’s no shechita in Switzerland? What do Frum Jews in Switzerland do? Is there a Frum community there?
Frum Jews in Switzerland import their meat from other European countries. It’s not all that far away (a lot closer than Israelis importing their meat from S America), but obviously more expensive. I don’t think the anti-shechita ban promoted frum Jewish immigration from Switzerland. More problematic will be when they ban bris mila.
There is a frum community in Switzerland
Switzerland is not that big, so people who want kosher meat can easily import it from France or Germany.
BTW I think most (or at least alot of it) kosher Israeli meat is actually schected in Poland and imported
During WW2 the Swiss didn’t readily admit Jews who made it to their border. People here don’t understand that the the concept of freedom of religion and separation of church and state is a uniquely American concept. It was a reaction to European practices . LU, in another thread you maintained you were Jewish, not American. Well, you are acting like an American, not a Jew. Separation of church and state and religious pluralism, tolerance and accommodation are not Jewish, halachic concepts ( nor are they Muslim concepts under Sharia law ).
The reason cats don’t swim with cats of the opposite gender is because cats hate water.
Lilmod
“If you don’t like it, home school or send to private school.”
I don’t know if it’s reasonable to expect someone to home school their child because the public school is acting against freedom of religion. It’s not necessarily a realistic option for everyone.”
Please don’t judge other countries by what is in the US Constitution. Freedom of Religion is not a constitutional right in most countries of the world. Even enlightened countries such as England, have an official state church and the monarch is the titular head.
If it bothers frum Swiss Jews enough, maybe they should just make aliyah. There’s no one forcing them to stay in Switzerland, and there’s certainly no mitzvah to live there.
Or the Swiss Jews could move to America.
Or the Swiss Jews could move to America.
There’s no mitzvah to live in America, either.
Switzerland during WW II was in a dangerous position, they were surrounded on all sides by the Nazi’s. The only reason the nazis did not invade was because the nazis needed them to sell off the gold. If the Swiss would have angered the Nazis too much, they would have invaded them too
Takahmamash: “If it bothers frum Swiss Jews enough, maybe they should just make aliyah. There’s no one forcing them to stay in Switzerland, and there’s certainly no mitzvah to live there.”
Takamamash, good point in theory, except – even though the ideal is to live in EY, there are reasons why it can be muttar or even a Mitzvah to live in Chu”l. I try to be dan l’kaf zchus that many of the Jews in chu”l have good reasons for being there. This is certainly true for many of them. And the rest are “tinok shenishba” in this area since they were never taught the chashivus of living in EY.
btw, I used to be much more judgmental of Frum Jews who live in chul but I have learned to be more open-minded over the years, as I have come to realize that there can be good reasons to live in chu”l, and making aliyah is not always the best choice for everyone from a Torah perspective.
Once a thread is derailed can I go back to the original topic?
The NY Times article has the following:
What we should be discussing is whether one should be allowed to create their own religious beliefs or if only the existing established beliefs should be protected.
Back to derailing the topic. Once someone asked me to help them make a case that vaccinations were against their religious beliefs. I declined.
“There’s no mitzvah to live in America, either.”
Sure there is, if they’ll be better Jews there than elsewhere.
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