systematic/institutional racism

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  • #1872303
    som1
    Participant

    any democrat that claims there is systematic/institutional racism , just think for a moment how absurd that is, because who controls the system, institutions,collages, university’s, etc. ITS THE DEMOCRATS THAT CONTROL IT!!

    #1872496
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    Not only that, there are so many laws on the books today making discrimination at every level illegal that it’s simply ridiculous to claim the “system” is racist. Affirmative action shows just the opposite, as does Barack Obama’s ascension the Presidency. What blacks are complaining about is actually individual racism. That’s where they’re screwed – if people dislike blacks, or where any race dislikes another, there’s nothing that can be done about it, because it’s a personal sentiment, beyond the reach of the law.

    #1872836
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Why is it absurd? The Democrats are attacking all white people including themselves. And you only included higher education institutions in your list. I don’t think anyone was accusing higher education of being systemically racist. Corporations, financial institutions, small businesses, Law enforcement officials, policy makers, etc are more Republican. That’s who people are accusing.

    #1872839
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @someone in monsey
    Really? If you were to go to a job interview and get the feeling afterward that they are not interested in you because you’re frum, is there any way you can sue the person? Of course not. If a Black person knows that his resume is much less likely to get a call back, there’s no legal remedy for that but it’s still systemic racism.

    This, of course, doesn’t mean that these phenomena exist. You would have to look at empirical data for that, and the evidence is mixed.

    #1872887
    Joseph
    Participant

    Shnitzel: Actually, one CAN sue for those reasons. And demonstrate in court that the business is systemically discriminating. Even though difficult to prove, it is possible.

    #1872928
    charliehall
    Participant

    One of the rare occasions I have agreed with Joseph. Religious discrimination is illegal.

    #1873031
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @Joseph
    What would you need to prove discrimination? They will just say they didn’t like you for other reasons. And this is when they made some facial expression or comment about your religious appearances. What if they made no expression or comment at all? Then there’s definitely no way of suing them. Please educate me.

    #1873894
    Burnt Steak
    Participant

    @som1 your initial premise is incredibly flawed and I hope that you are able to see the errors in your way of generalizing. You also use a few tropes that are commonly used by anti Semites. Replace the words Democrats with Jews. That is literally what my Dad went up against in the 1970s as he and other Jewish students fought to overturn the quota of Jews admitted into his universities medical school.

    It would be more helpful of removing the lenses of “us vs. them” “democrats vs. republicans” and look at this from a neutral viewpoint.

    I hope that we can agree that there are both discriminatory laws and unfair enforcement of the same laws.

    Generally the people who are in power tend to write laws to keep themselves in power. This can be seen all the time when voting districts are created. Additionally, in certain areas, there have been laws that are designed to suppress the votes from low income and also formerly incarcerated individuals. In those same areas the low income and formerly incarcerated populations tend to be minorities. Now when the laws are enforced at a higher rate per capita than other people, that is a biassed system.

    It goes beyond just law enforcement. The media is more likely to devote more time covering crimes against white victims as opposed to minorities. When the criminal is being discussed, if you pay attention to the details, white criminals are generally described more positively when compared to coverage of criminals who are minorities.

    One of the main points the BLM protesters are making is that:<i> African American’s have been unfairly judged based on their skin tone for generations. Treat African American individuals with the same amount of respect that you would afford any other person. Take an inward look and try to put yourselves in their shoes before you judge them.</i> As Jews this should be easy for us to do. We have also been discriminated against and unfair laws were also made against us as recently as 2020. Each person, including non Jews is created Btzelem Elokim, we should judge other based on their individual worth and we should be able to empathize with them.

    By effectively closing your mind and saying that the Democrats are hypocrites you are not helping the issue. Expand your knowledge and be willing to open your mind to the idea that others may have a point even if you do not generally agree with them. If you don’t want to do this, at least reconsider your statement, because it is often falsely made about Jews controlling everything and we all know how that generally holds up.

    #1873995
    Historian
    Participant

    June 21: 2 major tragic Jewish cases on this Gregorian calendar day. למספרם

    June 21, 1962

    י”ט סיון תשכ”ב

    Graciela Sirota, 19 years old Jewish student brutally attacked, cigarettes burned on her, swastikas carved on her body by nazi gang TACUARA in Argentina with a message that it was revenge for eliminating Adolf Eichmann y.s. Many protested, Jews and non Jews. Shops closed posting: “closed as protest nazi aggressions”. Students mobilized.
    Some 5 months later, this Nazi group was saluted and praised by United Arab Republic’s rep. in the U.N. Ahmad Shukairy (Shukeiri, Shuqairy – prayed during WW2 for Hitler’s victory and Britain’s loss and was former aide to Hitler’s ally the Mufti al-Hussein y.s.) And a bit over a year passed since he invented (Oct. 17, 1961) the apartheid slur on Israel without explanation, but using the condemnation momentum in UN against South Africa to tarnish Israel by comparing it to S.A. He later on, May-1964 became PLO’s first chairman.
    For historical facts: That was about 6 years before the 1967 war and about 41 years before the anti-terror barrier erected.

    Notes:

    On Graciela Sirota:
    Richard S. Levy: ‘Antisemitism: A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution,’ Volume 1. p.697

    Beatrice D Gurwitz: ‘Argentine Jews in the age of Revolt…’, 2016, p.53

    On first historic (apartheid slur) comparison, by Shukairy:
    Y. Oron: ‘Middle East Record,’ volume 2, 1961, p.188

    Shukairy aide to Hitler’s ally Mufti:
    Congressional Record: proceeding and debates… Vol.107, part 24, US Congress

    Shukayri admitting praying with his friends for Hitler’s victory.:
    E. Kedurie: ‘Arabic Political Mmoires’, 1964, p.189

    ‘Encounter,’ vol. 39, p.76. S. Spencer, Irving Kristol, 1972

    Shukairy’ salute to Tacuara:
    “Recall of Arab Delegate from U.N. is Sought; ‘saluted’ Tacuara”, JTA, Dec.3.1962

    “Chile Rebukes Arab Delegate at UN for ‘saluting’ Tacuara Group.” JTA, December 4, 1962

    _________

    21 June, 1964

    י”א תמוז תשכ”ד

    The KKK y.s. murder of African American Chaney, with the two young Jews, Schwerner and Goodman, while they tried to help African-Americans in their civil rights.

    #1874022
    som1
    Participant

    snitchel B-“Really? If you were to go to a job interview and get the feeling afterward that they are not interested in you because you’re frum, is there any way you can sue the person? Of course not. If a Black person knows that his resume is much less likely to get a call back, there’s no legal remedy for that but it’s still systemic racism.”
    that case you just described above is an individual case of an employer being racist/antisemitic not of
    systematic racism! and in the scenario above you could sue them if you have evidence, but to suggest that there is systematic racism because some employer might be racist is and not hire someone absurd , because that could happen to any group so you have to then say that america is systematically racist against each and every group that exist!!( white/black/Asian/Mexican/Muslim/jews/Christians/European/……………

    #1874020
    som1
    Participant

    burnt stake-” Replace the words Democrats with Jews.”
    are you suggesting that jews are being systematically discriminated against , and i agree with that ? because thats total stupidity there is no systematic discrimination against any group in this country EXCEPT against republicans! (not that im complaining about)

    #1874023
    som1
    Participant

    burnt stake-“I hope that we can agree that there are both discriminatory laws ”
    what laws?? name them!! cause they dont exist! just name me one racist law!!

    #1874028
    som1
    Participant

    burnt stake- “Now when the laws are enforced at a higher rate per capita than other people, that is a biassed system.”
    not if that group commits crimes in the same high rate per capita! which is the case by blacks!

    #1874427
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    Unfortunately, just by doing a quick look through American history shows that there is obviously systematic racism against blacks. Just because in the past 50 or so years, we’ve enacted laws pushing for equality, that simply doesn’t fix the hundreds of years of inequality. Why are so many black Americans living in bad, neglected areas? Can’t get good jobs? Can’t pursue higher education? Don’t have access to the level of healthcare many other Americans have? Don’t have father figures at home? Aren’t raised with the same moral compass other Americans are? Are put in a position where they resort to crime? To answer these questions, don’t point the finger at THEM. Point it at the white Americans who have put them in exactly these situations as a result of blatant injustice over the course of hundreds of years.

    To say there is no systematic racism against blacks now is like trying to sell a car that on the outside looks new, yet under the hood is a complete wreck.

    #1874450
    2scents
    Participant

    Chaim,

    Definitions are important when you state that there is systematic racism against blacks, does that mean there are polices in place that targets specific groups of people?

    Are you referring to affirmative action?

    Or any other policies?

    You use bad neglected areas or lack of good jobs. Is that the result of racism? What can be done to change that? Funnel billions of dollars towards those specific groups?

    If the lack of father figure, lack of being raised with the same moral compass as others is a sign of systematic racism and the communities own doing, then we have different definitions for what systematic racism is.

    I have mentioned this recently here, all that you have listed is true, but where are the black community leaders when it comes to these issues? Why are they busy instigating the black community to become racists and go against the white man?

    Charlie has called me out as a bigot, and others have disagreed very strongly. But none have pointed out anything that would indicate that any of the leaders in the black community that actually are actively working on these major issues.

    #1874496
    som1
    Participant

    chaim- inequity doesn’t mean inequality!
    just because america was once racist doesn’t make american systematically racist now!! like Germany isn’t systematically anti semetic now even though they used to be 70 years ago

    #1876987
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    2cents – why do you assume black community leaders aren’t trying to work on it? Just because things haven’t seemed to change? Change like this happens on a very long term scale, decades and decades. And it starts with white leadership acknowledging these problems and being willing to listen, since they’re primarily the ones in control.

    som1 – Yawn. The long term effects of systematic racism and prejudice can far, far outlast the actual cause itself. Just because America has new “cooks in the kitchen” doesn’t mean they cleaned up the mess that’s been left there, which is a mess that continues to grow.

    #1877017
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Chaim Schulem:

    “which is a mess that continues to grow” – It’s dichotomous to say that a growing mess is caused by a decreasing racism.

    It’s true that there are lingering effects of past discrimination and that vicious cycles of poverty exist. That being said, it’s very difficult to argue that it’s a primary factor in today’s racial disparities. From 1950 to today, America has become far less racist by banning segregation, redlining and workplace discrimination, yet Blacks are worse off today with both the wealth gap and the income gap widening. In addition, other ethinic groups have started off with no capital in their communities and still achieved equity.

    I do agree with you if you’re talking about the sociological effects that past racism had on the hopelessness and inferiority complex within the Black community.

    #1877322
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    What is more of a factor for inner city (black) kids. The disappearing middle class or, the biased judicial system?

    #1877340
    Joseph
    Participant

    American Holocaust survivors came to this country penniless following an attempted genocidal extermination across the European continent, which had been their ancestoral home for a thousand years. And they just lost a majority of their parents, siblings and family to that Nazi genocide murdering six million of their brethren, a third of the population. Yet, nevertheless, within a few decades they successfully rebuilt better than before economically, spiritually, familiarly and emotionally.

    Don’t tell anyone that historic discrimination against blacks from over a century ago is responsible for their poor economic status, high rate of criminality, broken families with no fathers, teen and unmarried pregnancies and all their other self-inflicted wounds.

    Jews were beaten down much much worse and came back much much better, far far quicker.

    #1877368
    2scents
    Participant

    Chaim Shulem

    “ 2cents – why do you assume black community leaders aren’t trying to work on it?”

    I am not assuming, it just isnt there.

    The few that do say it, are dismissed by the black community as being sold out to conservatives or white people.

    For some reason most of the leaders in tye blck community like it when they are victims, they arent asking for equal opportunity.

    #1877409
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Joseph

    I don’t think it’s correct to compare the Black experience with ours. Jews that immigrated up to the 20s had to sign affidavits that they have jobs waiting for them and that they also had communal social nets including people that would vouch for them when they arrived. The Hungarian Jews that arrived after the holocaust, in addition to the above, received reparations from the Germans, unlike Blacks who are still waiting for their 40 acres and a mule.

    #1877412
    Joseph
    Participant

    SB: Are you kidding? The German reparations were a pittance. Nothing to write home about. The post-WWII European Jews came to America with no family sponsors, penniless and without family. They had just undergone far far worse tribulations than the blacks. Within a few short years they were back and prospering rather than constantly demanding America give them ever fatter handouts.

    #1877415
    Joseph
    Participant

    Same, btw, with the Russian Jews who came to America in the late 1800s/early 1900s. They, too, came to America with no family sponsors and penniless after fleeing from Czarist Russia with nothing other than the clothes on their back. And they too within a few short years were prospering rather than constantly demanding America give them handouts.

    And they do not have a large criminal element, they do not riot, they do not loot and they do not burn down buildings when America doesn’t give them what they demand or when a criminal is apprehend by the police.

    #1877419
    Joseph
    Participant

    Same, btw, with the Russian Jews who came to America in the late 1800s/early 1900s. They, too, came to America with no family sponsors and penniless after fleeing from Czarist Russia with nothing other than the clothes on their back. And they too within a few short years were prospering rather than constantly demanding America give them handouts.

    And they do not have a large criminal element, they do not riot, they do not loot and they do not burn down buildings when America doesn’t give them what they demand or when a criminal is apprehend by the police.

    #1877428
    2scents
    Participant

    To add to what Joseph posted.

    They did not have stable jobs, getting a new job only to be fired for not showing up on Shabboss.

    #1877447
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Joseph, I don’t think your portrayal of American Jewish history is entirely accurate. Regardless, I am unconvinced that intergenerational wealth or lack thereof is a primary factor for the current socioeconomic status of a group. Even if a Black kid grows up in complete poverty, he still can get federal aid to get a college degree. If he doesn’t want to borrow, he can go to the army and get free college from there. (Something which many Blacks do).

    However, historic oppression may be an important factor for the current sociological behavior of a group. There’s no doubt in my mind that thousands of years of being treated differently has created certain unique behaviors in Jews, and it would follow that thousands of years of being treated as racially inferior have created certain unique behaviors in Blacks. J.D. Vance discusses in his book about his family in Appalachia that the White people in Kentucky and Southern Ohio are suffering from the same exact hopelessness and complexes that Blacks are suffering from.

    BTW, I think you would find the Moynihan Report interesting as it was written by a sociologist trying to uncover the factors of Black dysfunctionality before sociology was taken over by victomologists that believe that one can never blame the victim. Moynihan tries to find the source of the problem and he does a good job going through all possible reasons. (Although he does ignore how Blacks behaved in their native Africa [I could lose my job over thia but I’m referring to the s word] vs other populations, something which historians have ignored for the past century)

    Btw, on an optimistic note and also because I’m shocked that I have never seen such a statistic before, did you know that 52% of Harlem children go to charter schools that gives them a much better chance of upward mobility?

    #1877466
    smerel
    Participant

    Today, however, things have gone the other way. The systematic racism and discrimination is affirmative action which discriminates against white males.

    There is plenty of institutionalized racism in the US but it isn’t directed against blacks. It is directed against white people

    Sotomayer, that “wise Latina lady” who thinks her race makes her superior would not be on the Supreme Court if she were a white male making the equivalent comments about Latinos.

    It would be unthinkable for a politician to talk about looking for a white male to fill a position . It is totally acceptably to express a preference for hiring a non-white.

    Elizabeth Warren didn’t lie and claim to be a minority on her Harvard and job applications because whites have an equal shot in this country.

    etc.

    #1877471
    2scents
    Participant

    smerel,

    Very valid point, but even without this point, there is equal opportunity.

    While some might have to work harder to reach the same outcome, the same is said for people of all races, as the majority of all people are not wealthy which means that they need to work harder than the 1%. (the 99% includes people of all races).

    #1877472
    DovidBT
    Participant

    What is more of a factor for inner city (black) kids. The disappearing middle class or, the biased judicial system?

    Maybe the lack of proper values: cohesive families, education and hard work.

    #1877499
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Smerel

    Really? Is there affirmative action in housing? In schools (not counting higher education)? In the vast majority of businesses? In corporate boards? You can be upset about affirmative action without needing to exaggerate it.

    #1877504
    Health
    Participant

    smerel -“There is plenty of institutionalized racism in the US but it isn’t directed against blacks. It is directed against white people”

    I personally think it’s not the Blacks fault. But the Fault lies with the Democratic Party.
    They have been Pushing this Narrative for Umteen Years. Don’t take responsibity for your Actions, when you could blame s/o else.
    They are eating it up.
    The doctor who’s in Charge of HUD, was brought up in the Detroit Ghetto. His family taught him – to be sucessful takes a Lot of Hard WORK!
    Very few in this world, of Any color or race, wants to Work Hard.
    Everybody Wants the EASY WAY OUT!

    #1877628
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    Joseph, It’s ridiculous to contrast the Jewish bounce back after the holocaust to the black communities in America, for one very important reason: The Jewish successes are in AMERICA, not the countries we suffered the holocaust in. How successful have we been in the rebirth and growth of large Jewish communities in Poland and Germany? Not successful. We moved on to a new place, far away from the destruction. The black communities are still located in the same places they suffered real persecution in. Perhaps you’re implying that in order for them to become successful they need to leave America…

    #1877664
    Joseph
    Participant

    CS: That’s very silly. Africans were enslaved in Africa by their fellow Africans. Europeans came to Africa and purchased these already enslaved Africans from other Africans. So their suffering began in Africa itself.

    Do you imagine that had they stayed slaves in Africa rather than being purchased by Europeans they’d have done better in Africa? Of course not. The African-Americans are doing far far better than the former African slaves who never left Africa, by any account.

    America helped the African-Americans in the long run. Virtually none of them want to return to Africa. There was once a movement to return them to Africa. They’re doing much better in the United States.

    America has helped EVERY demographic group that came to the United States do much better economically, socially, politically, mentally and in any measure of happiness than they experienced in their homeland pre-America. Whether we’re discussing the Irish, Italians, Polish, Africans, Carribeans, Chinese, other Asians or Latin and South Americans.

    #1877677
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    America is the Great Melting Pot. Blacks in the south were forced into their own pot. While everyone paid attention to the main pot, the other pot was allowed to boil over.

    #1877684
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Oy vey Joseph, you’re not allowed to talk about that!

    #1877719
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    N0mesorah

    It wasn’t just in the south. I think there’s a lot of truth behind what the Conservatives say, that what the North did with its “de facto” segregation and general oppression was just as bad as what the south did dejure.

    #1877768
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“Blacks in the south were forced into their own pot.”

    FYI, Slavery ended in the Mid-1800’s.
    Stop with the Liberal Nonsense!

    #1877835
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    I could not think of a way to make it work in the analogy.

    #1877843
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    1863. What happened to the Blacks next?

    #1877852
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @nomesorah

    I’m assuming you’re referring to Jim Crow not Slavery. The only difference between the north and south is that the south made it very difficult for blacks to vote and weren’t allowed to use the same water fountain. Other than that, whites in both areas made it difficult for Blacks to be upwardly mobile, using redlining and, yes, also using segregation (there is a old achool building thats a National Landmark in Hillburn, NY near Monsey, because that district didn’t desegregate until 1943).

    #1877865
    Health
    Participant

    nOm -“What happened to the Blacks next?”

    IDK – You tell me Mister Liberal.

    #1878471
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    Until today Blacks have their own melting pot that is largely ignored. I opine that the societal changes that are paying attention to the over boiled pot, is due to immigrant communities (Used to be Jews, than Latinos, now Asians.) joining the wrong pot.

    #1878625
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“Until today Blacks have their own melting pot that is largely ignored”

    I don’t understand. Explain.

    #1878739
    BY1212
    Participant

    There is systemic racism in the u.s. but it comes from the progressives, not the conservatives.

    All of the blacks problems stem from the welfare state which came into being in order to prevent them from integrating into society.

    Progressives since the late 60’s have built the ghettoes- physical and mental – that prevent blacks from the living normal lives they might have achieved after the civil Rights victories of the 50’s and 60’s .

    The racism of thz slavery and Jim Crow eras is indeed gone. Today’s racism is from progressives who want to manipulate blacks as a monolithic vote black and cynically adopted policies to prevent from ever leaving the modern day plantation.

    #1879330
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear By,
    You seem to believe that racism was sufficiently addressed in the Sixties. But lack of community planning has not allowed it to reach the intended potential. That is exactly the understanding of the majority of Americans who protested recently. (Can we call it the American Spring?) It has given rise to most of the Libertarian ideas regarding inner cities.

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