March 3, 2013 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #608416
The Rambam says that if, on Pesach, even the slightest amount of chametz becomes mixed together with another substance, either of its kind or not of its kind, [the entire mixture] is forbidden.
The Rosh and Smag maintain that this principle does not apply until the holiday itself actually begins. Thus, even if chametz became mixed with other substances on the fourteenth of Nisan, after the time chametz is forbidden, the mixture is bound by the laws regarding the nullification of forbidden objects (????? ???????) that apply throughout the entire year.
The Kessef Mishneh maintains that a simple interpretation of the Rambam’s statements leads to the conclusion that he accepts this opinion. Though others, among them the Maggid Mishneh, do not accept this view, it is accepted as Halachah (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 447:2).
Sephardim accept this principle in practice, for the most part.
The Passover guides of R’ Gavriel Cohen, R’ Yitzchak Abadi, R’ Moshe Shammah, R’ Yehuda Boroosan and others discuss this as the l’maaseh practice for Sephardim. Hence the fact that according to these rabbanim chashuvim, we can eat certain varieties of frozen vegetables, condiments, potato chips, etc. that are kosher year-round.
R’ Shammah says:
Hametz mixed into non-hametz substances during
Pesah is not annulled in the manner that prohibited
food items are annulled all year long, such as mixtures
of one in sixty. Perhaps more than any other, it is this
halakha that requires an extra measure of care with
food throughout Pesah. However, hametz that was mixed with non-hametz is annulled before Pesah in the standard manner and
remains annulled during Pesah. This principle applies
even if inclusion of the hametz ingredient was not
known before Pesah. Thus, foods prepared before
Pesah that are known to be kosher all year long, that
do not have hametz as an ingredient, even were they
somehow to have a minor amount of hametz mixed in
and annulled before Pesah, are acceptable during
Pesah. Such foods do not necessarily require special
supervision. Included in this category are canned,
frozen and most dried fruits and vegetables, fruit
juices, sugar, salt, plain tea, plain potato chips, pure
coffees, pure chocolates, pure vegetable oils, tomato
sauce, milk, butter and plain dairy products.”
Yet, when I made the suggestion that Sephardim follow their own halacha, I was attacked.
Even some of the Ashkenazic authorities apply this principle to milk- they say that you can use milk purchased before Pesah without a hechsher for Pesah on Pesah itself.
Am I missing something here?March 3, 2013 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #936184
Where were you attacked?March 3, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #936185
I started a post a week or so ago in which the above shitot were berated and attacked. So much for shivim panim l’torah, I suppose.March 3, 2013 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #936186yitayningwutParticipant
Ashkenazim also accept this, just not for yavesh b’yavesh. Most normal cases of ta’aruvos are not yavesh b’yavesh. It’s pretty simple to be lenient l’kulei alma in the cases you mentioned since even if there were a concern for yavesh b’yavesh, it is certainly not a vadai that any chametz was mixed in, and since chametz b’mashehu is d’rabbanan, we are at most dealing with a safek d’rabbanan. I don’t know why an educated talmid chacham would berate you for being lenient with this.March 3, 2013 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #936187ToiParticipant
i think all your missing is a bunch of “c”s in the words that are pronounced ch.March 3, 2013 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #936188
Was that the thread in which you said that the chometz in A&B fish is batel?March 4, 2013 1:14 am at 1:14 am #936189
Never said that about AB fish. I said that they make a Pesahdik fish sold all year round, albeit at lower prices when it’s not Nissan.
I was berated because people don’t know halacha b’iyun. They never learned the relevant mekorot and therefore go with the mahmir answers they’re told are le ma’aseh.March 4, 2013 1:51 am at 1:51 am #936190
Cheeses like Miller’s and HaOlam are usually KFP year round, so it would be good to buy this ahead, as well. Same goes for AB Gefilte Fish, and anything else that is KFP all year round.
One would certainly assume from this sentence of yours that all A&B gefilte fish is okay for Pesach. It was only later in the thread that, when shown your error, you conceded that it’s only one type.March 4, 2013 2:42 am at 2:42 am #936191
The point is that a well-accepted halakhic principle was treated like apikorsus by those who don’t know any better.
I proudly will be purchasing items on the lists distributed by R’ Boroosan, R’ Cohen, R’ Maroof, and R’ Abadi.
I don’t want to be oiver on baal tosif.March 4, 2013 2:50 am at 2:50 am #936192
I highly doubt that A&B makes KFP gefilte fish year round simply because there’s not much of a market for it. The KFP fish is typically sold at a discount from the chametz stuff after Pesach.March 4, 2013 2:56 am at 2:56 am #936193
Yes, their more dietetic varieties (Which we buy) are KFP and can be purchased year round.
Mrs. Adler’s also has gefilte fish available year round that is KFP.March 4, 2013 3:22 am at 3:22 am #936194
The point is that a well-accepted halakhic principle was treated like apikorsus by those who don’t know any better.
The word apikorsus (and the idea, for that matter) was never used in that thread. You were accused of spreading misinformation, which was true, but not of apikorsus. Why do you need to make up false attacks?
I don’t want to be oiver on baal tosif.
lolMarch 4, 2013 3:34 am at 3:34 am #936195
Which are A&B’s “more dietetic varieties?”
Speaking of Rabbi Gavriel Cohen, his guide contains the following error: regarding dog food, he says any is acceptable “since it does not contain any grains.” If fact, virtually every dog food contains grain. Needless to say, dog food is fit for a dog to eat.March 4, 2013 3:45 am at 3:45 am #936196
They make gefilte fish that is gluten free, no starch, etc. year round that is both healthy and KFP available year round.March 4, 2013 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #936197ToiParticipant
rd- go learn bal toisef b’iyun. id echo dy’s answer, but i hate these new-fangled abb.March 8, 2013 12:49 am at 12:49 am #936199
This isn’t davqa bal tosif, but it certainly is rhetorically.
I see no merit in going beyond of what is acceptable from a halakhic perspective for the sake of self-righteousness; such self-righteousness serves to win the favor of men, not do right by G-d, and I want no part of that, nor do I see that as particularly useful in my avodat hashem.
I have a list of cereal Sephardim can use on Pesah from a rabbi with years of yeshiva learning and I have another list from a rabbi who is considered a leading rosh bet din in the LA community and which is relied upon for giyur, gittin, etc. (just like R’ Ralbag, who is seen as hashuv, but is rejected on kashrut, for whichever reasons)March 8, 2013 3:30 am at 3:30 am #936200
But as I mentioned, one of the rabbis you rely on made an egregious error in regards to dog food. We’re not Catholics so we don’t believe in infallibility.March 8, 2013 6:24 am at 6:24 am #936201
Yes, but that doesn’t invalidate the psak of the Shulchan Aruch and it’s application le ma’aseh by Hakham Ovadia Yosef and others, now does it? I quote R’ Dr. Ronald Hasson on misperceptions people have about Pesah (Hasson is a leading respected Sephardic rabbi).
1) Even the smallest amount of Hametz is forbidden on Pesah.
False. Like all foods Hametz is nullified and considered insignificant if it is less than 1.6% of the total product. The original version of the Gemara stated that this principle is in effect even on Passover itself. However, after the period of the Gemara, a word was inserted into the text (unknown by whom) that adds a clause stating that even the tiniest amount of Hametz in a product renders the entire product not kosher for Passover. This became accepted as practice and therefore cannot be changed (even now that we know that this was not the original law). However, this added stringency only applies on Passover itself. Food that was mixed with small amounts of Hametz before Pesah is completely permissible to be eaten on Pesah. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef writes that any Rabbi who teaches otherwise is making a sin by teaching the incorrect law to people. One must follow Sephardic tradition when teaching Sephardic Jews. It is important not to ignore and abandon the Sephardic tradition just to add more restrictions than is required by Jewish Law. He also writes that anyone who writes laws for Passover, and writes them stricter than the actual law is, can not even be forgiven for this on Yom Kippur and must ask personal forgiveness from everyone that acted in a strict fashion on the holiday unnecessarily.
2) Any food not cooked specifically for the holiday is not kosher for Passover.
3) All items need a specific hashgacha for Pesah.
False. Any item that it is clear without reasonable doubt that it was made without any Hametz is permissible on Pesah. For example, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef writes that items such as raw meat, cheese, honey, jams, and canned sardines do not need a special Hashgacha for Pesah. This is the law even if the salt used on the sardines for example had some wheat in it, or if the jam was cooked in Hametz pots without anyone assuring that there are no bits of Hametz getting in. This is because the way of producing these items are uniform and it is very unlikely that there is a significant amount of Hametz in these items. The same would obviously apply to juice, milk, and other basic items. As the law forbidding even small amounts of Hametz is rabbinic in origin, the rabbis did not require one to be extra stringent on their laws. They made stringencies to protect against Torah violations. It would be inappropriate to make a stringency to their stringency.March 8, 2013 7:27 am at 7:27 am #936202
Rd, the expressions “v’hamachmir tavi alav brachah” and “baal nefesh yachmir” don’t seem to fit into your worldview, yet they often appear in poskim.March 8, 2013 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #936203
I knew since the beginning where this was going to lead, because normal people don’t have a problem with other people’s stringencies, maybe they don’t take those upon themselves, maybe they even think they are misguided, but do not ridicule those who do, much less on Pesach when we are taught we have to be stricter than usual, because of our habit to eating chometz year-round. Still it is fascinating to watch it unfold.
It started with quinoa, a seed from the Americas which was unknown in past centuries.
It continued with corn and corn derivatives, which also come from the Americas, but many have an established minhag to avoid.
So far it is a discussion on certain seeds and whether or not we should equate them to kitniyot. Of course some communities eat and enjoy kitniyot, that is the real ones, on Pesach, and they may also enjoy the new seeds as long as they’re chometz-free and grain-free. So essentially you are telling the vast majority of Askhenazim that they are wrong in abstaining from the new seeds (I wonder why do people get annoyed if Askhenazi scholars forbid, say, corn for their own Askhenazi followers, scream about Askhenazim supposedly imposing stringencies on Sefardi Jews, and yet, they feel qualified to teach everyone?)
Wait a few days. Now you are telling us R”L that mamash chometz gamur is fine and dandy to eat on Pesach, you actually give us a number, you claim it’s batel shlishi. And you are stating that saying differently is R”L a sin and people have to beg forgiveness on Yom Kippur. There is more to it. You even suggest that chometz created during the holiday – not only the chometz which came to be despite our best efforts, but also the chometz someone may have created due to laziness and negligence and ignorance – is similarly nullified and that “the original version of the Gemora” is different. You continue with telling us that someone unknown has falsified R”L the Rabbis’ words (must be some chumrah-loving Askhenazi; I wonder how he succeeded in having his supposed modifications accepted unchallengedly by everyone else). So, according to your statement, we are basically following in the footsteps of a mistake or deliberate falsification.
Did I understand correctly? If I misunderstood, I apologize, but you may want to clarify, because that’s what is written in your post above.
Perhaps you also believe the parts about karet are falsified? Or you don’t believe in it altogether? Or do you believe it does not apply to you?
By the way I happen to be a newly-Askhenazite (since 15+years). I do not miss kitniyot and certainly do not miss checking kitniyot. You check kitniyot according to Sefardi minhag, right? Or you don’t care?
PS You may want to address those people you respect and hold by as RABBI XY, not as R’ (R’=Reb=Mr – why do you use a Yiddish expression in referring to Sefardites?) and not as plain and simple “XY”.March 8, 2013 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #936204ubiquitinParticipant
DY, None of those expressions are said regarding chametz being batel before pesachMarch 8, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #936205
The historically normative approach for most of Jewish history, for Sephardim at least, was to be like Hillel, not Shammai.
Stringency characterizes the Ashkenazic approach due to the influences of pilpul (no aliba d’hilkhata learning lends itself away from codification, hence the fact that historically, Sefard gave us the Rif, Rambam, Shulhan Arukh, etc., and Ashkenaz gave us casuistry. Many in Ashkenaz opposed the idea of a Shulhan Arukh- see the Yam Shel Shlomo in his haqdamot to both Hhullin and Bava Kamma; we stress bekiut over iyun, in accordance with the Gemara’s statement in Horayot 14b that Sinai trumps oker harim), the historical influence of the Hasidei Ashkenaz (Who emphasized mortification of the flesh, asceticism, monasticism, self-inflicted makkot, and other such spartan values, as seen in the Sefer Hasidim of Yehuda haHasid), and an overall perception that stringency is generally correct, despite instances where the halakha indicates otherwise. The above all comes from am address Hakham Ovadia Yosef gave, and he says that kocha d’hetera adif characterizes our approach.
Our approach is a legitimate one, and it is one I have chosen to follow. And neither the Shulhan Arukh, nor Hakham Ovadia Yosef, nor R’ Moshe Shammah, R’ Yitzhak Abadi (who learned by the Hazon Ish), R’ Ronnie Hasson, R’ Joshua Maroof, Hakham Dr. Isaac SD Sassoon, R’ Yehuda Boroosan (who works for the OU and learned at Ner Yisrael), R’ Yosef Bitton (of the Mashhadi kehilla), or any other host of Sephardic rabbanim are wrong on this. I haven’t seen any mekor say “v’hamachmir tavi alav brachah” and “baal nefesh yachmir” in a context of
If people wish to go beyond the halakha, let them. But I, for one, see no good reason not to, especially since the Torah tells me “haTorah chasa al mamonan shel yisrael” and “kocha d’hetera adif.”March 8, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #936206
Oh my. It is no doubt a terrible, terrible mortification of the flesh to subsist for eight full days upon meat, fish, milk and cheese, fancy exotic fruits and nuts, fancy vegetables, mandelbrot and all sort of sweets, expensive chocolate (no soy lecitin for us) and of course, wine and grappa and slivovitz and cachaca to wash it down, that one should instead crave some canned beans or some cheap corn syrup candy.
It is none of my concern whether your approach is legitimate (yours – whose? Rabbi Abadi’s? I don’t recall him being in favour of forced draft, for example, much less do I recall Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, quite the contrary; so it’s really rebdoniel’s words, not the words of the Sefaradi Gedolim), please follow whatever derech you want, but as long as you come here and spread misinformation, I will point out your words are misinformation – disinformazia – and a very dangerous mixture of truth and falsehood.March 8, 2013 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #936207gavra_at_workParticipant
rebdoniel: Minhag Klal Yisroel (even Sephardim) is to be Machmir on Pesach. Period.
daniela: If I can make a few proofreading edits to your otherwise appropriate response….. 🙂March 8, 2013 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #936208
Mah inyan shemitah etzel Har Sinai? What does accepted psak for hundreds of years have to do with defending the state of Israel?
Also, if you actually took a Jewish Studies course, or read anything written by historians, you would know that the Hasidei Ashkenaz advocated things like whipping yourself, rolling around in the snow, etc. They believed these things had a cathartic effect. If you look in the writings of Yehuda haHasid or in R’ Eliezer miVermeisa, you see them advocating various measures involving a degree of torture proportional to the “teshuvat hamishkal” and “teshuvat hakatuv.” For instance, R’ Eliezer miVermeisa, in Sefer haRokeach, 27, says that one who commits adultery should “sit in ice or snow each day for an hour, once or twice,” and “in hot weather, he should sit beside flies of ants, or suffer similar torture.”
This trend towards mortification of the flesh is an influence on Ashkenazic halachic approaches, according to scores of scholars. It cannot be denied as an influence which led Ashkenaz to a Shammai approach.
I cited the Kaf haHaim as a source who says Sephardim should follow the Rema on Pesah. If we follow that logic, than we should also eat non-bet yosef meat, ch”v. Hakham Ovadia Yosef rejects that approach of the Kaf haHaim.
The point is that the Shulchan Aruch, the Rosh, Smag, Kesef Mishneh, R’ Ovadia Yosef, and scores of other Sephardic hakhamim embrace this approach and it is one I am proud to follow, that I can enjoy a true hag kasher v’sameach.March 8, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #936209gavra_at_workParticipant
rebdoniel: B’mechilas K’vodcha, I seriously have no clue what you are getting at.March 8, 2013 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #936210
I cited the Kaf haHaim as a source who says Sephardim should follow the Rema on Pesah. If we follow that logic, than we should also eat non-bet yosef meat, ch”v. Hakham Ovadia Yosef rejects that approach of the Kaf haHaim.
He said it l’kulah also?
Chozer v’niur only works when there is no more b’ein, and there are other issues which can be problematic as well, such as keilim.
As Gavra writes, the approach to Pesach has always been to be extra machmir. Your writing continues to show that you don’t understand what mesorah is about.March 10, 2013 3:49 am at 3:49 am #936211
Mesorah is an inauthentic concept. I hold like the score of rabbis I cited above. If you have a problem with this approach, take it up with them. I am not Ashkenaz and very glad I was spared the half-truths and ignorance spewed by many.March 10, 2013 3:52 am at 3:52 am #936212
RD, stop foaming at the mouth. Your attacks on Ashkenazim are unacceptable. You’re welcome to eat whatever you want on Pesach, but I suspect not too many Sefardim will join you for a meal.March 10, 2013 3:58 am at 3:58 am #936213
“Mesorah is an inauthentic concept. I hold like the score of rabbis I cited above.”
If we are to ascribe a lack of authenticity here, it would be to yourself. I doubt that the rabbis you cited would endorse the statement you made about mesorah. But you don’t care for their opinion on that do you? You only care to quote or follow the teachings that suit you, jumping from one authority to another whimsically, leniencies adding spring to your stride.
I’ve refrained from commenting on your attitude until now, but it’s enough. I’m not sure what you see in Judaism to begin with, but if your purpose here is going to be to thrust your 20-something year old sophomorism in our faces then I wish you would leave. A person with your background should be asking more, and questioning less. And never lecturing to others what you ill understand yourself.March 10, 2013 4:01 am at 4:01 am #936214Torah613TorahParticipant
**Torah613Torah Applauds Squeak.**March 10, 2013 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #936215
“Mesorah” is not an ideal we hold in an particular esteem historically. And there are many hakhamim who will be eating in our home for Pesah this year, including some of the above whose psakim I cited.March 10, 2013 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #936216
“Mesorah” is not an ideal
At least you’re open about who you are and your agenda. If you acted like other proselytizers we would have a bigger problem.March 10, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #936217
There is the mesora of Torah She Ba’al Peh and the “mesoyra” that is an invention of certain figures within contemporary Jewish intellectual history. Perhaps we have two different concepts in mind. But, in any event, the halakha does not object to the Sephardic practice of hozer ve neor as applied to specific dietary practices on Pesah. If people choose to be more mahmir than the Shulhan Arukh, they can be. If potato starch, not eating the skins of fruits and vegetables, avoiding garlic, etc. make people happy, “Gezunta heit” as they would say.
But I think that the halakhic approach of Rabbis Shammah, Hasson, Cohen, Maroof, and Abadi has merit, and if you have any qualms, I would be more than happy to supply contact information for these respected, Sephardic hakhamim. You can level all of your criticisms at them, since theirs is the practice many follow. I am not being “mechadesh” anything here, and am only relaying the piskei halakha I’ve learned from them.March 10, 2013 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #936218
I have no problem with the pischei halacha of any of those mentioned or their followers. But you knew that.March 10, 2013 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #936219
Of course you do. Because it isn’t what you were taught, it therefore seems exotic, lax, overly lenient, inauthentic, and because it isn’t what bubbie and zadie did, it must not be correct.
Another teacher of mine, in response to the “mesoyra” proof, says that tradition isn’t a proof of anything. Reb Tevye Judaism, though, is a tour de force for many, for better or worse. The author of Eicha reminds us that our ancestors were ovdei avodah zarah at one time (Eicha 5:7).
When Orthodoxy confuses the second sense of Orthodoxy with the first, its teachings approximate Reconstructionism more than its own self-definition.
My actions have the backing of poskim, including the Shulchan Aruch, and what was common practice for many years among Sephardim, correctly, according to the Kesef Mishneh, Smag, Rosh, Mehaber, R’ Ovadia Yosef, and the other rabbis cited.
Ironically, many things are done in the name of stringency that were not traditionally done, that there is no mesorah for. Likewise, many cite mesorah as proof for ignoring the halakha on certain areas, as well. It can go either way. But, where there tradition is supported by legal valence, it is good, and where traditions lack legal valence, it is no good.
Chozer ve neor is an example of something for which there is definitely legal valence. My approach is corroborated by the Shulchan Aruch and R’ Ovadia Yosef. If some Sefardim choose not to hold like R’ Ovadia Yosef, that is their business, but the approach of Hakham Ovadia is one very closely aligned to the way in which I learn halakha. If you’re at all familiar with his psaq, you’d know that like the Gra, he’s not afraid of overturning minhagim or practices that are not in conformity with the Shulchan Aruch.March 10, 2013 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #936220
Your approach is corroborated by the Shulchan Aruch and “R'” Ovadia Yosef? Did I read that right?
Rabbi Abadi’s sons have a website on the internet and it has Q&A forum which also discusses at length Pesach food issues for Sefaradim in USA. May I point out that nowhere do they advocate that Askhenazim with an established family minhag in regards to avoiding soy, peanuts, corn etc, should eat them. Some examples (no links, but click on an answer and replace the number) 37603 about popcorn “please follow your Rabbi when it comes to corn, soy and peanuts for Ashkenaz”; 52383 about corn pasta “ok for Sephardim. for Ashkenazim follow your Rabbi” and anyone can search the forums for more.
Gavra-at-work I am afraid I haven’t got a mehadrin proofreader, but please feel free to correct any residual mistakes, you have our enthusiastic permission and thanks. 😉 And, yes, he told me that post of mine was very badly written. Apologies.March 10, 2013 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #936221
I never once explicitly said that Ashkenazim should deviate from their practices.
In fact, if you see recipe suggestions I post on this website, I will often indicate options based on individual stringency. If a person wants to only use nut oil, or avoid garlic, or peel all their vegetables on Passover, and if that makes them feel good, and if they deem that appropriate, gezunta heit. But that doesn’t give these practices any legal valence.
In fact, at our sedarim this year and for the last days, we won’t even be using kitniyot or gebrokts, since we will be having Ashkenazim over. Not that I agree with these stringencies, but we want to be welcoming and inclusive.March 11, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #936222shepherdParticipant
for someone who seems to know so much i am surprised you include the rosh and smag as sephardic when they were actually ashkenaz… also do you not know that the mechaber, kesef mishna and beis yosef are all actually the same person?March 11, 2013 12:32 am at 12:32 am #936223
I use extra-virgin olive oil and peel most fruits and vegetables year-round and I never craved peels or corn oil (which by the way is not very healthy). Back to Pesach, as I am sure your Rabbis taught you, Askhenazim are forbidden to eat kitniyot but may eat food cooked and served in keilim used for kitniyot, in fact, even a grain of rice that should fall in the Askhenazi’s dish is no concern at all (if it’s not dissolved but is still recognizable as a seed, he has to put aside and avoid eating it). In the old world, Askhenazim have been eating in Sefaradi homes for centuries during Pesach, and Sefardim have been eating kitniyot in Askhenazi homes during Pesach for centuries as well. Please explain us why refraining from ***kitniyot*** makes a kitchen more “Askhenazi-friendly”.March 11, 2013 1:05 am at 1:05 am #936224
I am referring to the seforim, not their authors as personalities. Yes, the Smag and Rosh were Ashkenaz, but Ashkenazim don’t hold like them on chozer ve neor.
I wouldn’t serve Ashkenazim kitniyot. One rabbi in E”Y says that Ashkenazim could eat kitniyot if they do a hatarat nedarim. But, Ashkenazim have no heter to eat kitniyot, in a Sefardi home or otherwise. And I’d challenge you to find one normative Ashkenaz home where kitniyot are eaten. (I know of baalei teshuva and other Ashkenazim to adopt Sefardic customs, though).
An Ashkenaz could eat off a Sephardi’s dishes during Pesah without hashash for kitniyot. But, they cannot eat kitniyot b’chlal.
Similarly, if I go to an Ashkenaz home where they have a gentile maid cooking, I wouldn’t eat there.March 11, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #936225
Where did I say that one should serve kitniyot to Askhenazim? Or that Askhenazim should cook kitniyot for themselves? Obviously the Askhenazi is taking the bother to check the rice in order to feed their favourite (and permissible to them) dishes to his Sefaradi family and friends.
What I said is completely different, i.e. if someone cooks rice and beans in a pot, and he can do that regardless of being Askhenazi or Sefaradi (no restriction on Askhenazim owning and benefitting from kitniyot), and immediately afterwards cooks potatoes in the same pot, those potatoes are fit to be eaten by Askhenazim, and this is the case even if the pot was not even washed with detergent, in fact, even if a few grains remained attached to it. Thus, observant Askhenazim have no problem at all eating in a home where observant Sefaradim cook and eat their kitniyot. Of course, as long as there is no chometz.March 11, 2013 3:01 am at 3:01 am #936226truthsharerMember
BTW, you should see what the Chacham Tzvi (and/or R’ Yaakov Emdem) had to say about Kitniyos and other Pesach minhagim.
It’s a good think he lived a long time ago. His posts would’ve been banned from the CR.March 11, 2013 4:56 am at 4:56 am #936227
I would say that the Rambam, Ibn Ezra, Ibn Kaspi, Gra, R’ Yaakov Emden, Mechaber, Mori Yosef Qafih, R’ Eliyahu Benamozegh, Hakham Tzvi, Meiri, Netziv and others would all be censured in one way or another, since they all have views not in accordance with the street culture pop religion of today’s Haredi world.March 11, 2013 5:04 am at 5:04 am #936228
If someone came along today and decided that all halachah should follow Beis Shammai, we would censure him as well. Yet, that’s exactly what Beis Shammai did.
See, that’s part of mesorah – knowing which views were rejected (although not the one who presented the view, ch”v) and which not. Not everything is as black and white as BS/BH, but the phenomenon still exists.March 11, 2013 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #936229
Everyone knows that pious ladies whose father had taught them to read Hebrew would put on Tefillin until a few centuries ago. In the Sefaradi world and in isolated communities one may have found them until relatively recently (a couple of centuries? three?) Shall we deduce from it that the ladies of the wall are just fine and following a mesora R”L? When Moshiach comes, he will give us detailed instructions, for the time being we are taught we follow our fathers, not our grand-grand-grand-grandfathers.
I still do not understand why kitniyot make any difference to a religious Askhenazi who is invited in the home of a religious Sefaradi.
DaasYochid: do I remember correctly about Moshiach doing exactly that, pasken according to Ben Shammai? Yet again, until he shows up, we are not concerned.March 11, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #936230
Menahot 43b says that women are patur from the mitzva of tzitzit. The Rambam paskens that a woman is permitted to wear tzitzit without a braha (Hilkhot Tzitzit 3:9) Interestingly, the Raavad is more lenient than the Rambam and says that there are those who say that a woman can make the braha on tallet (Rambam uses the lashon of wrapping, implying the tallet gadol, as opposed to tallet katan). Tosafot also say a woman can make the braha, citing examples of women taking upon themselves voluntary performance of mitzvot, including Michal bat Shaul haMelech wearing tefillin as proof for women wearing tallet and making the braha. The Hayei Adam actually permits women to make braha on the tzitzit/tallet.
Some say based on the Targum Yonatan that a tallet is a men’s garment; the problem with this is that a) Targumim are non-halakhic texts, and b)Sifre on Bamidbar 15:37-38 indicates that women are implied in the mitzva of tzitzit, with R’ Shimon paskening that woman are patur.
Views in the poskim which object to women wearing the tallet do so on the grounds that such constitutes “yuhara.”
In his Beit Yoseph commentary on Tur Orach Chayim 17, Rabbi Yoseph Karo mentions this concern in the name of the Agur and Rabbi Yoseph Molin, although he also quotes Molin as reporting
that a woman in his community did wear tsitsit. In the Shulchan Aruch, Rabbi Karo does not mention this reservation, but he also does not explicitly say that women may wear tsitsit. In his
gloss on Shulchan Aruch, Rabbi Moses Isserles says regarding the exemption of women for ??”? ? ???? ????? ????, ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????, ?, ” ,wearing tsitsit nevertheless, if they want to wrap (in ???? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ????? ???? ???? tsitsit) and make a blessing on it, the permission is in their hands; however it appears as haughtiness, and therefore they should not wear tsitsit, since it is not a personal obligation. While this value judgment may have its time and place, I would be quite reticent to deny a person’s right to do a mitzvah (whether obligatory or optional) because of external perceptions of haughtiness (note that Rabbi Isserles does not suggest that a woman who chooses to wear tsitsit should be stopped).
I would object to women wearing the tallit and making the braha, but based on the sources, including, most significantly, the Rambam, I don’t see grounds for protestation if a woman decides to don the tallet gadol. Making the braha, though, I feel would be assur, based on the Rambam. Even R’ Moshe Feinstein allows a woman to wear a tallit, albeit one distinct from a man’s tallet.
I think that a chiluk needs to be made between political issues of WOW and the specific halakhic meqorot on women wearing the tallet gadol.March 13, 2013 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #936231
OK rebdoniel it’s good to know where you stand, and I am sure you know women who are on such an exalted level in our days, good for you. Back to the issue, can you please explain why cooking kitniyot in the home is a problem for Askhenazim who wish to eat (something else) in the Sefaradi’s home?
Can you also explain what is the problem for a Sefaradi to eat something cooked by a Gentile employee of an observant Jew? I had never heard this from any of the Sefardi rabbis and minhagim I met so far in my life. I learned a Sefardi must be careful eating in a restaurant which is owned and operated by nonjews and supervised by a Jew, if the role of Jews in actual cooking of food fit to be served at the king’s table with bread and unfit for being eaten raw, is minimal, marginal, or is just lighting the oven; in this case the Sefardi can’t eat normally such food, but either he orders something else, or should talk to management and ask to use the kitchen. But if the nonjew is an employee of observant Jews? Where is the problem? I was puzzled but then I thought I should look up Rabbi Abadi’s website. Click on halacha and then food of a nonjew.
“If a Jew lights the oven, it would be permitted for Ashkenazim; but Sephardim cannot eat that food except when the Non-Jew is an employee at the house or restaurant of a Jew.”
Do you hold differently from Rabbi Abadi on this one?
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