Taking a Kulah from Across the Aisle
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- This topic has 80 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 2 weeks ago by n0mesorah.
December 5, 2022 11:16 am at 11:16 am #2144771
Why is it frowned upon when someone who’s litvish/yeshivish take a kulah position from a Rebbe or YU type rabbi. Case in point: The Flatbush Eruv? A bunch of Rebbes signed on to this new Brooklyn eruv. Why can’t someone from the litvish yeshiva system take that position?December 5, 2022 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2144915agutyarParticipant
“Kol echad l’fi rabo” -meaning , “every one according to his Rav” is the general way in which we act. Just as everyone dovens according to his nusach, everyone goes according to his Rav. Furthermore, if we follow the other rav’s kulahs, so we should also follow his chumrahs, which he has based on simular reasoning. Because if we go kulah shopping we might be making mistakes at other times.December 5, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2144908
To your point, who cares? People frown about all kinds of chumros and kulos. It’s not a big deal. And it’s personal.
In a real litvish/yeshivish setting we all just sit and learn.December 5, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2144904
The case is way out of point. It’s not a kulah from the yeshiva perspective. It’s about learning Eruvin. It would be similar to asking why is it frowned upon when someone goes weeks with opening a sefer. Or wearing tefillin.December 5, 2022 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2144945
But why does one Rabbi have to be the one Rabbi for everything? It’s all within the framework of Halacha?December 5, 2022 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #2144949
agutyar also In litvish communities most people don’t typically have one Rav for Halacha. There needs to be more reasons than Rav so and so said.December 5, 2022 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2144955
The problem is kulah shopping. Some kulos are so extreme that you’re only able to use them if you’re a talmid of such a rov.
And not every opinion is legitimate.December 5, 2022 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2144972
People shouldn’t shop around for different kulos. You should ask your Rav. If he wants to rely on others’ opinions, that’s up to him – and a lot may depend on the individual case.
Using the Eruv for example – I was told by a Rav who learned by R’ Tuvia Goldstein zt”l, that R’ Tuvia held you could make an Eruv in Brooklyn, and even held the existing Eruv was good. (Back then, it was a much smaller one, and was not accepted by almost everyone.)
However, R’ Tuvia wouldn’t issue that psak publicly, out of respect for R’ Moshe. He would tell people, however, that in certain circumstances, it could be used. For example, if someone had asthma and needed to carry an inhaler. According to R’ Moshe, such a person had to stay in their house on Shabbos, as they couldn’t carry it. According to R’ Tuvia, one could carry the inhaler in their pocket, since it wasn’t visible.December 5, 2022 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #2144976
Where does it say you can’t go “Kulah shopping” Muttar is mussar assur is assur.December 5, 2022 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #2144983
Damoshe – I’ve heard that rav tuvia held that way, too, but he obviously didn’t want it publicized! So don’t publicize it.
It wasn’t just rav moshe; almost every posek in NY assered it.
Funny how some people rely on rav moshe for cholov stam, where he was basically a yochid, but ignore him when it comes to eruvin, in which he was part of the majority.December 5, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2144997GadolhadorahParticipant
“Where does it say you can’t go “Kulah shopping” ??
Maseches Shoteh (123:2)December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2145015
Rav Moshe was not a yachid on cholov stam. It was accepted before he came to the USA. His long teshuvos on the topic make it clear that it is not a chiddush in the sugya at all.December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2145013
What about the Aruch Hashulchan 345, the definition of 600,000 in one road and Rav Menasheh Klein?
I will repeat what I wrote on the Daf Yomi?
See SA O’CH 345 There is an argument a public domain 16 wide 600,000 people walking through does that include cars? Reb Moshe holds they walk with their cars but others hold that a car is a a private domain for itself. See in great detail Yabia Omer O’CH (9,33) about making a airuv of tzuras hapesach. A public domain where houses are on each side might limt the movement Traffic lights also limit movement. Intersecting roads also are questionable.
The Aruch Hashulchan in O’CH 345 explains that in the olden time there was a main road where all other roads would meet. The houses were in an alley closed on one side and meeting this main road on the other side (movo). The main road had doors on each side but closed at night 16 amos wide. This is derived from the mishkan were all the tents would converge to the Moshe Rabbenu’s tent where all 600,000 people gather and the wagons to the mishkan took up 16 amos.
Most agree that 600,000 is required. Rav Moshe in Igros Moshe O’CH (4,87) says that a city having 12 mil by 12 mil where this amount of people gather makes it a public domain considering it a platyeh godaloh. The Aruch Hashulchan says that each street is judged for itself.
The RMA O’CH 346,3 says that currently all of our streets are considered karmelis, only rabbinical. This is the the view of most poskim and therefore we can make an airuv with a tzuras hapesach without actual doors. Most poskim’s view is that cars don’t can included in the count. We have houses on each side of the road with street lights which limit the public movement. There are other roads circumventing the main road, so the main road is not as important as it used to be.December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2145005
I’m not sure who you count and you don’t, but if we would count up all dedicated rabbanim of the sixties and seventies, there was not even a clear majority consensus on eruvin in cities. Including the Brooklyn Eruv. It’s a messy topic.December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2145001
You (and anyone) can go kulah shopping as much as you want, but going to all different rabbonim may make you confused in your knowledge of Torah . Nothing is worse than that.December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2145000
I think the ‘rav shopping’ debate is a more honest conversation when it is about chumros not kulos.December 5, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2144999Yabia OmerParticipant
This is a critical issue for Klal Yisroel in 2022. Forget poverty, almanos, anti-semitism. What we need to focus on is Litvish people taking on kulos. Imperative!December 5, 2022 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2145032
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I wasn’t attempting to clarify the halacha at all. The fact is that the way Meseches Eiruvin is learnt in the yeshivos is at odds with the Brooklyn Eiruv. A Yeshiva guy who uses the eiruv is being looked as having rejected what everyone is learning. It is not analogous to reaching across the aisle for a kulah in say, bishul akum.December 5, 2022 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2145037🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I have to say I find the question surprising. I am used to the younger newer posters asking these things but I am not understanding your confusion. Do you really not understand why someone should follow their rav? It’s not such a tough concept to anyone who has parents. Did you have some other purpose in asking? Was this just to try to encourage more machlokes comments? I’m a bit stumped.December 5, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2145035
I leave the imperative issues for face to face conversation. Topics like speaking Hebrew. I would never imagine anybody bringing up a topic about being meikil on the CR.December 5, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2145041
I’ve always had this question and it’s never been answered properly. I understand the importance of having a Rav but sometimes you have a circumstance which is different than the general rule. Sometimes the reasoning you get is political as well.December 5, 2022 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2145051
You can ask anybody any question you have. And you can be accordingly stringent or lenient. Just if you keep asking different people, your going to get conflicting views which will lessen your clarity.December 5, 2022 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #2145054
Once a Rav assers you cannot ask another Rav for a heter.December 5, 2022 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #2145056
It’s dishonest to pick kulos and avoid a rov’s chumros; following minority opinions all the time, for every question, shows a complete lack of yiras shomayim, and a desire to do simply as one pleases, without regard to what the ratzon Hashem is.December 5, 2022 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2145068besalelParticipant
לעולם הלכתא כדברי ב”ה והרוצה לעשות כדברי בית שמאי עושה כדברי בית הלל עושה מקולי בית שמאי ומקולי ב”ה רשע
מחומרי בית שמאי ומחומרי בית הלל עליו הכתוב אומר (קהלת ב, יד) הכסיל בחושך הולך אלא אי כבית שמאי כקוליהן וכחומריהן אי כבית הלל כקוליהן וכחומריהן
.חולין מג:- מדDecember 5, 2022 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2145124mdd1Participant
Yabia, following the Torah properly is an IMPERATIVE ISSUE for Klal Yisroel.
1, if one Rov holds that something is muttar and 5 other Rabboinim hold it is not, it not just muttar.December 5, 2022 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2145126mdd1Participant
Also, I agree with Aviira.December 5, 2022 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #2145129ujmParticipant
“Once a Rav assers you cannot ask another Rav for a heter”
Once a Rav matirs, can you ask another Rav for an issur?December 5, 2022 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2145131GadolhadorahParticipant
Once a Rav matirs, can you ask another Rav for an issur?
Context could be important. For example, if a couple has a disagreement regarding chinuch for their child and agree to consult their Rav for guidance, and the Rav provides a more permissive psak, it would seem inappropriate for the losing party that wanted the issur to then demand a “second opinion” hoping to get a more restrictive opinionlDecember 5, 2022 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2145134
There is an issue of public behavior in a community. I know Sephardi Rabbis who tell their people to use Ashkenazi eruv even when it is not according to Sephardi halakha. (I am not sure though whether such Rabbis use the eruv themselves). Chasidim, typically, would not use such an eruv even if their “Sephardi” halochos are acquired …
So, according to this shita, if you live in the community that uses an eruv, you can too. But, if there is no community minhag, as it is – sadly – often the case, then you should follow halochos of your narrow kahal.December 6, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2145241
Reb Eliezer, that’s not necessarily correct. I was told that you can ask, but you must tell the second Rav about the psak when asking your question.
I once had a situation where my Rav sent me to another Rav who was an expert in the specific type of case. The psak was not what we were hoping for. My Rav told me that he was going to send me to someone else. He called first to explain the background, and then I told him the exact details of the situation.
That was when my Rav told me you can ask someone else, as long as you inform them of the psak you already received.December 6, 2022 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2145244
DaMoshe, correct but the Rav could see that you are fishing for a heter and thereby refuse to answer you by saying why don’t you follow him?December 6, 2022 9:49 am at 9:49 am #2145253
Reb Eliezer, that may be the case, but it can really depend on the specific circumstances. If someone wants to get a heter for something that isn’t really significant, and just wants life to be easier, I can see a Rav turning the person away. But sometimes there may be medical issues at play. For example, I’ve written in the past how Bonei Olam helped me and my wife, and we have children thanks to them. In fertility treatments, there can be significant halachic questions that arise. Some Rabbonim may hold that some things are not allowed. Others hold that they are. A Rav should see that this is something which will have a significant impact, and even though the person doesn’t usually follow this Rav, he can allow things which another Rav might not. This is very different than someone who wants to eat at a certain store, or not have to throw out their food because they used the wrong pot.December 6, 2022 11:39 am at 11:39 am #2145266
DaMoshe, good point.December 6, 2022 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2145284ujmParticipant
Then there are the folks who are smart enough to know which rabbi to ask which questions in the first place. They know Rabbis A, B and C don’t allow what they want to do. But Rabbi D is known to allow it. So after they did their rabbinical research they first ask Rabbi D. When the next question comes up that their research told them Rabbi D doesn’t allow, they find out that Rabbi X allows it. So, obviously, Rabbi X is their first phone call for that question.
This way no one could ever accuse them of Heter-Shopping, since they never asked a second rabbi for a different answer after not liking what the first one pakened.
That’s why it’s good to have friends to ask which rabbi to call for what questions.
Of course there are some rabbis who just let about anything. They can be relied upon for any question.December 6, 2022 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #2145287
You can have more than one Rabbi.December 6, 2022 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2145294
You can also call a rabbi doctor, as the satmar rov said that they are “rofeh cholim umatir assurim*December 6, 2022 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2145306
Aveirah, you can make jokes if you like. There’s actually a fertility specialist who is a Rabbi too. He won’t pasken for his patients, but he’ll tell them all the relevant details to give over to their Rav when asking shailos.December 6, 2022 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #2145319
I don’t think people should call themselves “rabbi” if they have no rabbinic related role or if they’re not a person sitting and learning all the time. The title has become so diluted that in yeshivos, it’s a mockery. The Harrys who are in college want another certificate to hang in their study next to their degrees, so goes the narrative.
It’s just a few simanim of shulchan aruch and nosei keilim. It’s really not that big of a deal , but the hamon am laps up the title.December 6, 2022 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2145320
What if the Rabbi Doctor knows something a different Rabbi doesn’t? The Rambam was a doctor. His approach to Torah lasts til todayDecember 6, 2022 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2145344
“Chassidim, typically, would not use such an eiruv..”
I’m not aware of any Chassidim not using an eiruv because of a chumra.December 6, 2022 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2145346
If 1 Rav holds that something is assur, and 5 Rabbonim hold that it is muttar, it is not just assur.December 6, 2022 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2145348
It’s dishonest to pick chumros and avoid a Rav’s kulos; following minority opinions all the time, for every question, shows a complete lack of yiras shomayim, and a desire to simply do as one pleases, without regard to what the ratzon Hashem is.December 6, 2022 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2145360
Nomesorah; you really don’t see rhe difference between one who is seeking kulos and one who is seeking chumros? Intention is key here. The intention of someone who wants to be machmir is usually because he’s worried about doing the right thing. When someone wants to be meikil excessively, they are wanting to go after theit taavos or just be porek ohl.December 6, 2022 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2145380
lakewhut > What if the Rabbi Doctor knows something a different Rabbi doesn’t
Complicated shailohs should go to Rabonim specializing in that area. Medical degree is not necessary, but it would not hurt either. R Twersky (obviously a such expert) mentions in one of his Q&As that the person should consult a Rabbi who specializes in the topic under discussion. Hopefully, communal Rabbis have seichel to see when a question needs to go to the specialist.December 6, 2022 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2145379
n0> I’m not aware of any Chassidim not using an eiruv because of a chumra.
I did not research this beyond the visuals. I understand that this is a legit halachik difference between the communities (unless you hold that chasidim are illegitimate group of Ashkenazim who changed the minhag), not a chumra. My quote from Sephardim is that they’ll follow Ashkenazi community halakha when it contradicts theirs. Same reasoning they are sporting black hats, blending into the yeshivish community.December 6, 2022 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2145381
IF you know that we follow Rav in some cases and Shmuel in others, and then you have a financial question, would you call Rav?December 6, 2022 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #2145383
n0 > but going to all different rabbonim may make you confused in your knowledge of Torah
this is a serious question. I learned it the following way: it is better to first learn under one Rav or in one place, so that you got knowledge systematically, without skipping. After that, it is beneficial to go learn from multiple teachers to acquire different approaches.
One allusion: Alter Rebbe says that he was thinking about going to Gaon to learn Torah or to Maggid to learn Davening. He says “I knew a little about Torah, but nothing about Davening” …December 7, 2022 1:04 am at 1:04 am #2145469Chad AmarParticipant
I’ve simply stopped asking in order to avoid chumros all together.December 7, 2022 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2145537
Aveirah, if someone is purposely seeking out chumros because they are concerned about doing the right thing, then they should probably see a therapist. They may have anxiety issues.
Recognize what a chumrah is – it’s a stringency, not halachah. In fact, it is actually assur to search out extra chumros to take on for yourself.
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