May 29, 2012 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #603602
I had told ZeesKite that after Shavuos, I’d try and post what I heard about chumros. I did attend the shiur, and did hear a lot about the issue.
There is a Rabbeinu Yona and a Ramban that seem to say that chumros are a great thing, and taking them on is an admirable thing. There is a Rambam that appears to say differently, and says that taking on too many chumros is a sin. We are not supposed to deny ourselves that which is allowed. He cites the fact that a nazir had to bring a korban to atone for the fact that he denied himself certain things.
So which is it? Good or bad?
From various sources (I don’t remember all of them), he came out that chumros are good in certain circumstances. These are the ones that R’ Yona and the Ramban are talking about. The Rambam is talking about when the circumstances are not met.
Here are the circumstances:
[*] The chumrah should be to avoid sinning, not just to deny yourself something.
[*] The person must be holding at the level of the chumrah, and not trying to reach for a level that is beyond them.
[*] If the chumrah is not something that the general public holds of, then you shouldn’t do it publicly because of yuhara, or even a perception of yuhara.
Regarding the last point, he quoted a teshuva from R’ Moshe, in the Igros, about blended whiskey. The letter was to R’ Mordechai Pinchas Teitz zt”l, who did not allow drinking mixed whiskey. R’ Moshe said that he allowed it, but was machmir for himself – in private. In public, he said he would purposely drink blended whiskey so it shouldn’t look like yuhara.
When it comes to your chumros in regard to other people, he quoted a letter from R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l. A bachur in yeshiva in EY had asked R’ Shlomo Zalman about kashrus. He said that while in Israel, he had decided to be more machmir on his kashrus. His parents did not keep his new standard in their home, and he wanted to know what to do. R’ Shlomo Zalman told him that as long as they are kosher by the standards of their Rav, he should not keep his standard. R’ Shlomo Zalman made no mention of kibbud av v’em. He said that a person shouldn’t impose his chumros on others. He also brought others who said one also shouldn’t refrain from going to others who don’t keep their chumros.
An interesting point from this would be that if someone who is makpid on Chalav Yisrael was invited for a dairy meal by someone who drinks chalav hacompanies, they should have no problem with the milk/cheese being used.
Anyway, that was what I heard from the shiur.May 29, 2012 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #877132
“An interesting point from this would be that if someone who is makpid on Chalav Yisrael was invited for a dairy meal by someone who drinks chalav hacompanies, they should have no problem with the milk/cheese being used.”
According to Rav Moshe, when one b’davka keeps C”Y 3 times, s/he is making a neder. That crosses the line from chumra to Torah law.May 29, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #877133
According to many poskim (other than Rav Moshe), cholov stam is completely treif. Thus, cholov yisroel isn’t a chumra, but rather basic mandatory halacha. And you can ‘t even eat pareve food that was cooked in cholov stam keilim.May 29, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #877134
Whose shiur?May 29, 2012 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #877135
Naysberg-According to many poskim (other than Rav Moshe), cholov stam is completely treif.
According to many poskim posting on the internet is treife. And please do tell the names of the many poskim that say chalav stam is treife and also cite the seforim they are mentioned in. I want sources. MANY sources for the many poskin. Make it 10 within the last 80 years.May 30, 2012 12:20 am at 12:20 am #877136
MZ: Those sources exist, though I don’t know if there are that many. Most Poskim realized that R’ Moshe was a Bar Hachi of being relied upon in this case. A few still called it completely Treif, though almost no one nowadays would say that against R’ Moshe.May 30, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #877137
Milk cannot be treif. Only a non-shechted tahor animal can be treif. Pig is not treif – it is not kosher. Kosher meat mixed with cholov Yisroel is not kosher, but it most certainly is not treif.
Milk can be from a lo tahor source, but that type of milk is not sold in this country as USDA Grade A milk. I am tired of people calling things treif that cannot be treif, when they really mean “not kosher.” It’s like calling fruit glatt kosher.May 30, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #877138
Well, what would you call milk that comes from a treifah? ??? ?????. That seems close enough to call it “treif” in the vernacular, seeing as an animal also cannot be “treif”, it can be a “treifah”.May 30, 2012 12:42 am at 12:42 am #877139
popa: You can have a ???? ????? but not a ???? ??? because the noun is lashon n’kevah. If we conflate the two holy minhogei CR of ignoring grammar and being over the top about anything involving women, you can say ???? ??? .May 30, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #877140
Oomis: Actually, only a properly-Schechted Kosher animal can be a Treifah (or, at least, Assur to eat Mishum T’reifah). And milk from a T’reifah is Assur.May 30, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #877141
How do you milk a schechted cow?May 30, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #877142
Our holy Rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivas and Bobbes and Zaidies in America years ago drank and ate cholov stam and non-glatt meat; but don’t you dare tell me that they were eating traif.May 30, 2012 2:02 am at 2:02 am #877143
Chulent: A) The same way you milk a living cow, and B) you slightly misread my post. That’s the point of Assur to eat Mishum T’reifah. It is a Treifah, but I don’t think that’s relevant if you eat it before it’s dead. I don’t think an Issur T’reifah is Chal on an Issur Basar Min Hachai.May 30, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #877144
Oomis: Actually, only a properly-Schechted Kosher animal can be a Treifah (or, at least, Assur to eat Mishum T’reifah). And milk from a T’reifah is Assur. ‘
And how would you know the milked animal was a treifah until AFTER it was shechted? By that time, the milk was probably already drunk.May 30, 2012 2:57 am at 2:57 am #877145
And how would you know the milked animal was a treifah until AFTER it was shechted? By that time, the milk was probably already drunk.
At least some of the signs of a tereifah are external and visible while the animal is still alive.
The WolfMay 30, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #877146
Oomis: If you had no way to know then you’re Anus. These are all clear Halachos in Yoreh De’ah though. It’s not like they take any fancy logic or Lomdus. I think they’re even in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch if you’re actually interested.May 30, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #877147
At least some of the signs of a tereifah are external and visible while the animal is still alive.”
Ok, thanks for the information. Mikol melamdei hiskalti. 🙂May 30, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #877149
@naysberg R’ Belski disagrees with you as does R’ Heineman
I have personally spoken to many rabbonim and roshei yeshiva on this issue and not one agreed with youMay 30, 2012 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #877150
This was not meant to be a discussion on chalav Yisrael – I merely made one point that occurred to me (and wasn’t said in the shiur).
I had merely told ZeesKite that I’d post what was said in the shiur. There are more than enough threads about chalav Yisrael already.May 30, 2012 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #877151
If Chalav Yisroel was TRIEF, then you could not eat in a pizza store that sells mostly Chalav Yisroel items, but has a few Chalav stam pre-packaed itemsMay 30, 2012 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #877152
I thank you for your information. Sorry I did not acknowledge earlier.May 30, 2012 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #877153
I don’t think an Issur T’reifah is Chal on an Issur Basar Min Hachai.
Obviously one issur isn’t chal on the other, but is the issur Basar Min Hachai chal in the first place if it’s a trefah? After all, the animal is considered practically dead.May 30, 2012 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #877154
I’ve always loved this quote from Rebbe Nachman of Breslov about chumros:
Don’t follow excessive stringencies in your practice of the Torah. “God does not rule over His creatures with tyranny” ( Avodah Zarah 3a) – “The Torah was not given to ministering angels” ( Berachot 25b) .
Our rabbis have taught that it is proper for each person to choose for himself one mitzvah to observe with particular care in all its fine details ( Shabbat 118b ). Yet even with your chosen mitzvah, you should not be excessively strict to the point of folly. Don’t let it make you depressed. Simply try to keep the mitzvah carefully in all its finer points, but without excessive punctiliousness.
As for the other mitzvot, simply follow the essential laws without adding extra stringencies. If only we could keep all the mitzvot of the Torah according to the simple interpretation of the law without seeking to go beyond it!
There is no need to look for extra stringencies: this is foolish and confusing. The essence of serving God is simplicity and sincerity. Pray much, study much Torah and carry out many good deeds without seeking out or inventing unnecessary restrictions. Simply follow the path of our forefathers. “The Torah was not given to ministering angels.”
There is nothing that you absolutely must do or else. If you can, you can. But if you cannot: “God exempts a person under duress” (Bava Kama 28b) .
Sichot Haran #235
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