Tal Umotor Reminder

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  • #1926060
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Thanks DY!

    #1926106
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, you’re welcome.

    Reb Eliezer, I don’t think so. I think the reason to continue to say ותן טל ומטר is based on him following the צבור in א”י since he is considered a בן א”י (see בה”ט and שערי תשובה).

    #2032230
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    oh
    ha

    Never mind It was on page 2
    I feel silly

    I guess Ive done sillier things than thank twice

    #2032225
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The daf * reminded me of this thread

    DY
    Thanks for the mareh makom last year. I saw it and appreciated then I thought I replied

    (* and date Nov 22 which is the date mentioned in the Beis Yosef as the start day (not date as the start was the previous night) of Vesein tal umatar, however this date is not today obviously, as we do not start vesein tal umatar today)

    #2032300

    There is a fascinating discussion there about rain being on par with giving of Torah, etc. I think what Gemorah is saying that natural sustenance that Hashem provides is no less miraculous than big events, and we need to pay attention and be grateful and study them. Appropriately, this is followed by a scientific discussion where the rain is being formed.

    #2032631
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says קשה פרנסתו של אדם כקריעת ים סוף, the support is a daily miracle just as the splitting of the sea. The support is like rain a revival as עני חשוב כמת a poor person is considered like not being alive. The Jews were revived at kabolas hatorah. The second bracha of shemonei esrei reflects this as explained by the Tur through the acronym מפתח – מטר, פרנסה, תחיה, חיה. Rain revives plantations where the seeds are first destroyed. Support mentioned above. Resurrection is obvious and by giving birth.

    #2037649
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Say Tal Umotor this motzei shabbos Dec 4.

    See:

    The Change This Motzai Shabbos

    #2134638
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Say in CH’L Vesein Tal Umotor, Sunday night, Dec 4

    #2143624
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The reason we must adjust the Tekufas Tishri by 13 days because Pope Gregory in 1582 created a Gregorian calendar over Julian Caesar’s calendar by adjusting the calendar by 10 days. The other days difference had to do with a leap year for a complete century. Years divisible by 4 should be a leap year. The complete century is a hundred years. He changed it that only if is divisible by 400 will be a leap year. The years 1600 and 2000 were ok; The years 1700, 1800 and 1900 were not leap years any more. This makes the difference of another 3 days for a total of 13 days. This year the Sept tekufa (Tekufas Tishri) is Sept 22 or 265th day in the year. Adding the 13 days makes it 278. Sixty days from the tekufa is 338 which is Dec 4 in 2022.

    #2143665
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE

    I don’t fully understand this minhag we have of repeating the same thing every year

    “This year the Sept tekufa (Tekufas Tishri) is Sept 22 ”

    This is not correct

    Tekufas Tishrei according to Shmuel this year was Oct 7 at 3 PM*. 60 days later (starting with Fri Oct 7 as day #1**) gives you Monday Dec 5th as day #60. We start Vesein Tal umatar on Monday. Monday begins Sunday night Dec 4th.

    * If for some reason you want to use the Julian Calendar, though I’m not sure why since it isn’t really in use today, then the Tekufa was Sep 24 (Oct 7 – 13 days = Sep 24) not Sep 22

    ** This mistake has been pointed out before, when counting Halachic days DAY # 1 is (almost?) always counted. A baby has his bris at eight days old. For a baby born today , if you ask some guy on the street when is he 8 days old ? They would likely say: “1 day old tomorrow Thurs, 2 day old Fri … 8 days old next Thursday” As you know they would be wrong, TODAY is day 1, tomorrow day 2 … Day 8 is next wed. Ditto for 7 days of sehva berachos, shiva, sheloshim etc day # 1 counts . Same thing here When counting 60 days the day of the tekufa is day #1

    #2143680
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Of course, if you all lived where you’re supposed to be living, this entire discussion would be moot.

    #2143707
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubi, why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?

    #2143729
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    We don’t general follow “science” in halachic matters
    We follow science as handed down by the Chachmei Hamesorah.

    Shmuel’s Tekufa isn’t Sept 24, it is Oct 7 (until 2100 when it will be Oct 8)

    That said , there is a more accurate Tekufa of Rav Ada Which was shortly before midnight Sunday Sep 25 which is obviously closer to 9/22 than Oct 7 is *

    The Chazon Ish explains that the reason why we don’t use it for vesein tal umatar is that it is too complicated for the massess. We all need to figure out when to say vesein tal umatar, same goes for birchas hachama. So we use a simpler albeit less accurate calculation that is “close enough” (He explains that Shmuel isnt arguing on Rav Ada, of course Shmuel new his calendar was innacurate in Berachos he says he knew the paths of stars like the roads of Neharda)

    However for the calendar which is given over to chachamim we use the more complicated tekufa of Rav Ada

    *
    The reason why this is off by more than you might expect, is that Jewish Tekufos assume 4 equal periods
    That of Shmuel assumes 365 days & 6 hrs or 365.25 days a season is 1/4 of that = 91 days 7.5 hr
    That of Rav Ada assumes a year lasts 365.24682 days a season is 1/4 of that
    (For comparative purposes The Gregorian Calendar assumes a year lasts 365.24250 days (Note this too is a bit too slow and will eventually need to be adjusted as the calendar is sliding forward by one day every 3323 years))
    However the astronomical seasons are not of equal length. This is becasue the Earth’s trip around the sun is not a crcle it is an ellipse so the seasons are not equal I found these values online: Spring = 92 days, 19 hours; summer = 93 days, 15 hours; autumn,= 89 days, 20 hours; winter= 89 days, zero hours. Thus while the Gregorian and Astronomical YEARS are very close to that of Rav Ada. The SEASONS are off by a few days

    #2143797
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE

    point of clarification

    you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

    Those two Septembers are not the same

    To be consistent The question should be
    Using Gregorian dates:
    ” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

    or
    Using Julian dates
    ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Oct 5)? Is science incorrect here?”

    (I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it )

    #2143818
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Oops made a big mistake in my last post

    corrected here:

    RE

    point of clarification

    you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

    Those two Septembers are not the same

    To be consistent The question should be
    Using Gregorian dates:
    ” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

    or
    Using Julian dates
    ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sep 9)? Is science incorrect here?”

    (I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it, and in fact in my first version of this post I made a mistake with the Julian date )

    #2143819
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubi, thanks for your explanation.

    #2143816

    I never knew that summer is longer than winter! (in northern hemisphere). one more thing to thank Hashem for.

    #2143918
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE
    Sure, my pleasure
    it is a topic I find fascinating

    #2144238
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #2244162
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    As it is a yesr before a leap year 24, start saying Tal Umotor Dec 5
    Tuesday night instead of the 4th.

    #2244362
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Thank you for the reminder and important tip in the change of date this year.

    #2244398

    Don’t forget to daven that geshamim go directly into the tunnels, but not obscure drone cameras.

    #2244524
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    To calculate take Sept 23, the fall equinox which is the 266th day of the year, and add 60 ÷ 13 = 73 days, as described above, which makes the 339th day of the year, Dec 5.

    #2244772
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE
    As in every year past your calculation is wrong.

    #2244813
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE it is against an explicit Remah

    See OC 117:1
    Mechaber says we say it on the 60th day after the Tekufa
    The Remah says the day of the tekufa is included.
    The Mishna Berura points out that there is always 2 days between the day of the tekufa and the day we say vesein tal umatar. His example is if the Tekufa was Sunday then we start vesein tal umatar at Maariv of yom revviii (Ie Tuesday night). This is not wah twe did according to your incorrect caclulation. Sept 23 was Shabbos, if this was the tekufa we would have started Monday night

    Do you not remeber discussing this last year? and the year before? and before?
    soem of the comments are in this thread

    #2244853
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I am trying to find an easy way of calculating. The equinox is Sept 22 next year. It is always the night of the result. As long as we arrive to the same result, it does not matter how as long as we get the same result.

    #2244869
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I randomly grabbed the first 50 years of this century
    Here are the dates of the Autumnal equinox, followed by the correct date for start of vesein tal umatar (some of these are Friday night when of course start is delayed for an unrelated reason)
    Followed by the start date using your system followed by a Y if the y match and N if they don’t.

    They are aligned 43/50 which is 86% pretty good but as a “rule” to keep sharing when it is wrong 14% of the tme I think you should stop sharing your system

    Equinox – Correct date – your date – match?
    2000 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2001 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2002 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2003 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2004 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2005 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2006 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2007 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2008 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2009 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2010 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2011 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2012 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2013 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2014 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2015 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2016 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2017 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2018 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2019 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2020 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2021 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2022 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2023 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2024 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2025 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2026 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2027 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2028 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2029 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2030 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2031 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2032 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2033 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2034 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2035 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2036 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2037 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2038 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2039 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2040 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2041 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2042 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2043 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2044 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2045 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2046 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2047 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2048 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2049 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y

    (I did this by hand so there might be a typo or error or 2, though doesnt change my overall point)

    #2244905
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    For fun I redidi it using NEw York

    Equinox – Correct date – your date – match?
    2000 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2001 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2002 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2003 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2004 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2005 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2006 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
    2007 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2008 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2009 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2010 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 5 Y
    2011 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2012 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2013 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2014 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 5 Y
    2015 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2016 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2017 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2018 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 5 Y
    2019 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2020 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2021 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2022 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 5 Y
    2023 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2024 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2025 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2026 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 5 Y
    2027 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2028 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2029 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2030 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2031 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2032 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2033 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2034 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2035 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
    2036 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2037 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2038 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2039 Sep 22 Dec 5 Dec 5 N
    2040 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2041 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2042 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2043 Sep 22 Dec 5 Dec 5 N
    2044 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2045 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2046 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2047 Sep 22 Dec 5 Dec 5 N
    2048 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
    2049 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y

    The accuracy of your system goes up slightly it is 88% accurate. wrong only 6/50 times

    #2244892
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I just realized a mistake “I made
    I got the dates from “timeanddate . com”

    The times given are Coordinated universal time which is 5 hours ahead of New York time.
    Thus for New york the above dates are not accurate
    Some chnage to become correct for you

    for example last year 2022, equinox was Sep 23 01:03 UTC (which results in incorrect Dec 5th) but in NY this was Sep 22 9:03 PM (which results in correct Dec 4th)

    Nonethless my point still stands:

    1) Your rule is limited to certian time zones, making it not such a good rule, in London my list above with the 14% error rate is correct.

    2) Correcting for time difference makes some of your years more correct (eg 2022 becomes right)
    Others become wrong, for example 2039 in London your system works : Equinox will be Sep 23 03:49 UTC which results in Dec 5th according to both your system and the halachic one. but in NY the Equinox will be few hours earlier (local time) Sep 22 11:48 PM which would lead to Dec 4 start date using your system while Dec 5th using the halachic system (though to be fair it is more accurate in NY than in London )

    3) If you use it as a cute trick that usually works fine. But this is a-halachic in Halacha when counting days we always (almost?) count the first day as day 1. If you say ignore that and just add 60 it works fine. but to make it sound like this is how the cheshbon works when it is not true makes me squeamish.

    4) You say “I am trying to find an easy way of calculating.”
    This is the part I really don’t get, it is much easier to check your siddur and see “Start saying Vesein Tal umatar on Dec 4t hat MAariv unless it is before a leap year in whcih case it is Dec 5th” or google “When do we start” seems os much easier than relying on your method although it usually works.
    Who is this easy calculation for?
    for those who want to understand how Dec 4th was chosen and why this year its Dec 5th give them the correct answer. Who gains from your incorrect system (although it usually works)?

    #2244895
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I just realized a mistake “I made
    I got the dates from “timeanddate . com”

    The times given are Coordinated universal time which is 5 hours ahead of New York time.
    Thus for New york the above dates are not accurate
    Some chnage to become correct for you

    for example last year 2022, equinox was Sep 23 01:03 UTC (which results in incorrect Dec 5th) but in NY this was Sep 22 9:03 PM (which results in correct Dec 4th)

    Nonethless my point still stands:

    1) Your rule is limited to certian time zones, making it not such a good rule, in London my list above with the 14% error rate is correct.

    2) Correcting for time difference makes some of your years more correct (eg 2022 becomes right)
    Others become wrong, for example 2039 in London your system works : Equinox will be Sep 23 03:49 UTC which results in Dec 5th according to both your system and the halachic one. but in NY the Equinox will be few hours earlier (local time) Sep 22 11:48 PM which would lead to Dec 4 start date using your system while Dec 5th using the halachic system (though to be fair it is more accurate in NY than in London )

    3) If you use it as a cute trick that usually works fine. But this is a-halachic in Halacha when counting days we always (almost?) count the first day as day 1. If you say ignore that and just add 60 it works fine. but to make it sound like this is how the cheshbon works when it is not true makes me squeamish.

    4) You say “I am trying to find an easy way of calculating.”
    This is the part I really don’t get, it is much easier to check your siddur and see “Start saying Vesein Tal umatar on Dec 4t hat MAariv unless it is before a leap year in whcih case it is Dec 5th” or google “When do we start” seems os much easier than relying on your method although it usually works.
    Who is this easy calculation for?
    for those who want to understand how Dec 4th was chosen and why this year its Dec 5th give them the correct answer. Who gains from your incorrect sytem (although it usually works)?

    5) Your system will fall apart in 2100

    #2244973
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We add 14 from 2100. THe problem is the equinox changes according to location.

    #2244922
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    So let’s use the rule that it is Dec 4th. except before a leap year when it is Dec 5th.

    #2244993

    most important: kavanot for this year. Tal umatar should flood Hamas tunnels and keep Russian tanks stuck in the mud.

    #2244992

    Maybe computations do not work out because Gregorian years are approximate – with a leap day in 4 years, so half of 25% is close to your 14%

    #2244997
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RE

    “We add 14 from 2100”

    Yes my #5 is wrong I tried to repost without it but both went up

    “So let’s use the rule that it is Dec 4th. except before a leap year when it is Dec 5th.”

    Yep that is the rule.

    AaQ I don’t understand .
    The calculation doesn’t work because it isn’t the way to calculate.
    It’s 60 days from tekufas Tishrei using Tekufas Shmuel. Not 61 days from the autumnal equinox. Yes they often overlap but shpukdnt expect them to be the same .
    Tekufas Shmuel is known to be flawed There is a more accurate tekufa of Rav Ada, bit we font use it for this because too complicated (Chazon Ish says this)

    #2335842
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We start Tal Umotor at the night of December 4, 24.

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