Tal Umotor Reminder
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- This topic has 68 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 10 months ago by Reb Eliezer.
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December 5, 2020 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1926060ubiquitinParticipant
Thanks DY!
December 6, 2020 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1926106☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantUbiquitin, you’re welcome.
Reb Eliezer, I don’t think so. I think the reason to continue to say ותן טל ומטר is based on him following the צבור in א”י since he is considered a בן א”י (see בה”ט and שערי תשובה).
November 22, 2021 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2032230ubiquitinParticipantoh
haNever mind It was on page 2
I feel sillyI guess Ive done sillier things than thank twice
November 22, 2021 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2032225ubiquitinParticipantThe daf * reminded me of this thread
DY
Thanks for the mareh makom last year. I saw it and appreciated then I thought I replied(* and date Nov 22 which is the date mentioned in the Beis Yosef as the start day (not date as the start was the previous night) of Vesein tal umatar, however this date is not today obviously, as we do not start vesein tal umatar today)
November 22, 2021 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #2032300Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantThere is a fascinating discussion there about rain being on par with giving of Torah, etc. I think what Gemorah is saying that natural sustenance that Hashem provides is no less miraculous than big events, and we need to pay attention and be grateful and study them. Appropriately, this is followed by a scientific discussion where the rain is being formed.
November 23, 2021 9:14 am at 9:14 am #2032631Reb EliezerParticipantIt says קשה פרנסתו של אדם כקריעת ים סוף, the support is a daily miracle just as the splitting of the sea. The support is like rain a revival as עני חשוב כמת a poor person is considered like not being alive. The Jews were revived at kabolas hatorah. The second bracha of shemonei esrei reflects this as explained by the Tur through the acronym מפתח – מטר, פרנסה, תחיה, חיה. Rain revives plantations where the seeds are first destroyed. Support mentioned above. Resurrection is obvious and by giving birth.
December 3, 2021 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2037649Reb EliezerParticipantNovember 2, 2022 7:35 am at 7:35 am #2134638Reb EliezerParticipantSay in CH’L Vesein Tal Umotor, Sunday night, Dec 4
November 30, 2022 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2143624Reb EliezerParticipantThe reason we must adjust the Tekufas Tishri by 13 days because Pope Gregory in 1582 created a Gregorian calendar over Julian Caesar’s calendar by adjusting the calendar by 10 days. The other days difference had to do with a leap year for a complete century. Years divisible by 4 should be a leap year. The complete century is a hundred years. He changed it that only if is divisible by 400 will be a leap year. The years 1600 and 2000 were ok; The years 1700, 1800 and 1900 were not leap years any more. This makes the difference of another 3 days for a total of 13 days. This year the Sept tekufa (Tekufas Tishri) is Sept 22 or 265th day in the year. Adding the 13 days makes it 278. Sixty days from the tekufa is 338 which is Dec 4 in 2022.
November 30, 2022 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2143665ubiquitinParticipantRE
I don’t fully understand this minhag we have of repeating the same thing every year
“This year the Sept tekufa (Tekufas Tishri) is Sept 22 ”
This is not correct
Tekufas Tishrei according to Shmuel this year was Oct 7 at 3 PM*. 60 days later (starting with Fri Oct 7 as day #1**) gives you Monday Dec 5th as day #60. We start Vesein Tal umatar on Monday. Monday begins Sunday night Dec 4th.
* If for some reason you want to use the Julian Calendar, though I’m not sure why since it isn’t really in use today, then the Tekufa was Sep 24 (Oct 7 – 13 days = Sep 24) not Sep 22
** This mistake has been pointed out before, when counting Halachic days DAY # 1 is (almost?) always counted. A baby has his bris at eight days old. For a baby born today , if you ask some guy on the street when is he 8 days old ? They would likely say: “1 day old tomorrow Thurs, 2 day old Fri … 8 days old next Thursday” As you know they would be wrong, TODAY is day 1, tomorrow day 2 … Day 8 is next wed. Ditto for 7 days of sehva berachos, shiva, sheloshim etc day # 1 counts . Same thing here When counting 60 days the day of the tekufa is day #1
November 30, 2022 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #2143680takahmamashParticipantOf course, if you all lived where you’re supposed to be living, this entire discussion would be moot.
November 30, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2143707Reb EliezerParticipantubi, why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?
November 30, 2022 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2143729ubiquitinParticipantWe don’t general follow “science” in halachic matters
We follow science as handed down by the Chachmei Hamesorah.Shmuel’s Tekufa isn’t Sept 24, it is Oct 7 (until 2100 when it will be Oct 8)
That said , there is a more accurate Tekufa of Rav Ada Which was shortly before midnight Sunday Sep 25 which is obviously closer to 9/22 than Oct 7 is *
The Chazon Ish explains that the reason why we don’t use it for vesein tal umatar is that it is too complicated for the massess. We all need to figure out when to say vesein tal umatar, same goes for birchas hachama. So we use a simpler albeit less accurate calculation that is “close enough” (He explains that Shmuel isnt arguing on Rav Ada, of course Shmuel new his calendar was innacurate in Berachos he says he knew the paths of stars like the roads of Neharda)
However for the calendar which is given over to chachamim we use the more complicated tekufa of Rav Ada
*
The reason why this is off by more than you might expect, is that Jewish Tekufos assume 4 equal periods
That of Shmuel assumes 365 days & 6 hrs or 365.25 days a season is 1/4 of that = 91 days 7.5 hr
That of Rav Ada assumes a year lasts 365.24682 days a season is 1/4 of that
(For comparative purposes The Gregorian Calendar assumes a year lasts 365.24250 days (Note this too is a bit too slow and will eventually need to be adjusted as the calendar is sliding forward by one day every 3323 years))
However the astronomical seasons are not of equal length. This is becasue the Earth’s trip around the sun is not a crcle it is an ellipse so the seasons are not equal I found these values online: Spring = 92 days, 19 hours; summer = 93 days, 15 hours; autumn,= 89 days, 20 hours; winter= 89 days, zero hours. Thus while the Gregorian and Astronomical YEARS are very close to that of Rav Ada. The SEASONS are off by a few daysNovember 30, 2022 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #2143797ubiquitinParticipantRE
point of clarification
you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”
Those two Septembers are not the same
To be consistent The question should be
Using Gregorian dates:
” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”or
Using Julian dates
” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Oct 5)? Is science incorrect here?”(I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it )
November 30, 2022 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2143818ubiquitinParticipantOops made a big mistake in my last post
corrected here:
RE
point of clarification
you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”
Those two Septembers are not the same
To be consistent The question should be
Using Gregorian dates:
” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”or
Using Julian dates
” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sep 9)? Is science incorrect here?”(I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it, and in fact in my first version of this post I made a mistake with the Julian date )
November 30, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2143819Reb EliezerParticipantubi, thanks for your explanation.
November 30, 2022 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2143816Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantI never knew that summer is longer than winter! (in northern hemisphere). one more thing to thank Hashem for.
December 1, 2022 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2143918ubiquitinParticipantRE
Sure, my pleasure
it is a topic I find fascinatingDecember 2, 2022 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2144238 -
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