Talking during davening

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  • #609341

    Dr Uri Bakay
    Member

    So i’m talking to a coworker who is Muslim and he says that in the mosque during prayers if anyone attempts to talk he is thrown out of the mosque and banned from returning, maybe we should try this in some of the more talkative shuls. The talking during davening is really ridiculous.

    #1117142

    Sam2
    Participant

    Interesting. Regardless of how good the idea is, I feel like this is an actual violation Min Hatorah of “Eichah Ya’avdu Hagoyim Ha’eileh Es Eloheihem”.

    #1117143

    WIY
    Member

    Dr. Uri

    Its become a huge problem and its a terrible chillul Hashem. Personally I think it is the Ravs Achrayis to do something about the talking and if he does nothing its on his head. I know certain shuls where talking is at a minimum and it is thanks to the Ravs of those shuls who make it a point that talking will not be tolerated. Its sad that some people have no feeling for kedushas beis haknesses u beis hamedrash.

    #1117144

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Interesting…but everyone should be allowed in a shul as long as they are Jewish, a shul is a place to daven no matter who you are. Everybody should be welcome, if you don’t want the talkative speakers try to let them know talk isn’t accepted byvputting up signs or during speeches slip in mussar about it, if they wont feel so comfortable they’ll stop or they’ll leave.

    Shppping613

    Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates)

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    #1117145

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s why so many Muslims go OTD.

    #1117146

    Toi
    Participant

    DY- Post of the year.

    #1117147

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public (apparently because they are endangering the community – the Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Chmielnitzky massacres on this). It would seem that the same would go fore those who bring small children who are incapable of being quiet (see Mishna Berura 97:3 and Kaf HaChaim 97:13 in the name of the Shela HaKadosh that this is a triple aveira: chillul kedushat bet haknesset, gezel tefilla and negative chinuch).

    #1117148

    real-brisker
    Member

    So you rather people don’t daven at all? I think there are better ways to solve this problem.

    #1117149

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Let them know they are not welcome, slip in mussar during the speech (if your the one who gives the speech, if not ask the guy to do it) or start an awareness program or something

    Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.

    #1117150

    Avi K
    Participant

    Brisker, yes it would be better if they daven at home or even not at all. Zero is more than a negative number.

    #1117151

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    people who talk during davening are not interested in davening they should not come to shul at all

    #1117152

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    +1 dafyomi (who no like button?)

    Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.

    #1117153

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    what? shopping i dont get it!

    #1117154

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I meant who is there no like button here? My spell check does funny things and when I don’t catch the mistake before it gets posted…..

    Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.

    #1117156

    real-brisker
    Member

    Avi K – Okay, and where in S”A can I find that?

    #1117157

    lakewhut
    Participant

    yea I don’t think we should take advice from the most radical faction on the planet.

    #1117158

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    dafyomi – some people who talk in shul are very interested in davening but can’t stay focused for that long. Feel free to toss the baby with the bathwater, I’d rather encourage their coming quietly. There is a huge difference between advocating for the cessation of all talking, and advocating for the cessation of all talkers. The later is not a Torahdik concept.

    #1117159

    sam54634
    Member

    cut it out

    #1117160

    WIY
    Member

    Syag

    There are halachos about when you can and can’t talk. There are many sefarim that say it is better to stay home then come and talk. We don’t understand the chutzpah it is to come to the King of all kingsls throne room so to speak and start talking to a human being and ignore the King. It would be rude to do this with anyone let alone a king and al achad kamah vkamah withHashem!

    #1117161

    YITZCHOK2
    Participant

    I would say whatever they do we should the opposite as lets look what they produce!!!!!!!!!!!

    #1117162

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    syag you cant stay focused knowing that your talking to the R”SO who controls your every move and needs! if you go to shul to talk where do you daven!

    #1117163

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    WIY – I think you misunderstood. My point was NOT whether or not people should be excused from talking. I personally don’t send my children to shul til they are older. What I said was that you can condemn the talking and work on putting an end to it, but some posters were asking to get rid of the people who are talking. Why not just find a way to help them stop? Why not daven that they should stop? Our job is to condemn and put an end to talking in shul. Our job is not to put an end to the people. That attitude that those who do something bad are bad is what has screwed up so many of our children for so many years. No talking should be allowed. Period. Anyone who talks is more than welcome to continue coming as long as they remain quiet.

    #1117164

    E-O-M
    Participant

    Pardon my ignorance as I am but a simpleton, an Am Ha’aretz devoid of halachic wisdom, but… The ????? posted above all seem to have been written in a time when ????? ?????? was comparitavely a non issue. Are there any contemporary poskim (1990-present) that have adressed the matter with similar gravity? If do, pls share them… Perhaps these days, with shul being at the center of Jewish life, i can see why there’s a certain level of tolerance, in an effort to avoid ?????? and drive people away from the religion H”V. Of course it’s up to the rabbi to use his discretion as to what the threshold of tolerance is, and the method used to address the issue. You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

    #1117165

    Avi K
    Participant

    Brisker, you can find it in the fifth section.

    E-O-M, what about not pushing away kerovim? Maybe we can have special halfway-house shuls where people talk and there is a chazan to make them think that they are in a shul. However, IMHO (based on experience0 peopel are attracted to Judaism because they are looking for Judaism. They already have places to talk. If you want to read contemporary articles on this problem just google “talking in shul”.

    #1117166

    Dr Uri Bakay
    Member

    I was once in a very “choshuv” shul in Brooklyn and it was chol hamoed and for chazaras hashatz for both shacharis and mussaf 2 guys sat underneath a poster with the Tosfos Yom Tov Tefilla for not talking during davening and they just would not stop talking. I didn’t have my phone on me or I would have videoed it and put on youtube.

    edited for lashon hara

    #1117167

    Dr Uri Bakay
    Member

    sorry about that

    #1117168

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Talking during davening is one of my pet peeves. Few things bother me more.

    However, I don’t admonish people about it. I just sit there and bear it. The one time I actually said something to someone about it, I felt incredibly guilty and bad about it. I will not being doing so again in the future. Instead, I’ll just do what I usually do — sit and do a slow burn.

    The Wolf

    #1117169

    yw613
    Participant

    The Muslims also wake up around 5:00 AM (Neitz time) to pray, and some Yidden can not even get to shul on-time, which is at a later time.

    #1117170

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, Islam is not an avodah zorah.

    Syag le’chochmah, people who do bad things are bad. That’s the emes al pi Torah. Maybe, some people these days can not accept this, but that is the truth.

    #1117171

    nitpicker
    Participant

    while agreeing witn the discussion

    I must say, and others agree with me, that there has been tremendous improvement in many shules in this inyan.

    #1117172

    WIY
    Member

    Nitpicker

    I wish that were really so but all the shuls I daven in in my neighborhood seem to be getting worse one shul extremely worse to the point where I wasn’t sure there was a minyan responding amein at times.

    #1117173

    Avi K
    Participant

    I know a rav who stopped the davening whenever someone talked. They realized that the more they talked the later they would get out.

    #1117174

    nitpicker
    Participant

    to wiv,

    how can you dispute something I’ve seen just because you witnessed something else? I am sorry to hear that your neighborhood has not yet gotten with it.

    Some shules where the talking was rampant and the talkers insolent when rebuked, are now mostly quiet. Others, though still bad, are not as bad as they used to be.

    ( perhaps a new thread should be started about gabboim and officers who think they have special dispensations, despite shushing others.)

    #1117176

    Sam2
    Participant

    mdd: So we can steal their religious practices? Whether or not it’s A”Z for their Dinim, it’s certainly K’firah for us and Eichah Ya’avdu should apply.

    #1117177

    letschmooze
    Member

    mdd: you are absolutely right. Sam2 is wrong…..again.

    Perhaps we should do away with not allowing grafiti being written on the shule walls. I am sure muslims do not allow grafiti in their mosques so lehavdeel we should dafka allow people to spray grafiti all over the walls.

    You should just ignore Sam2. For that matter, while we are at it, let’s not use light bulbs or have a shule president because they use light bulbs and have presidents in churches.

    #1117178

    WIY
    Member

    Avi K

    That’s actually a very smart mehalech. Props to that Rav.

    #1117179

    Just because Muslims do it doesn’t intrinsically make the act bad- in fact, in this case it could be great by improving kavanah and yirah during davening, while making shul a serious place, without leitzonus.

    Accept emes from whatever its source- kalus Rosh is bad in davening whether or not Muslims say its bad

    #1117180

    letschmooze
    Member

    yes, that’s why Sam2, as I said, is completely wrong.

    real-brisker: “So you rather people don’t daven at all? I think there are better ways to solve this problem.”

    They can daven at home beyachid. There are consequences for people’s actions. If someone yells fire in a movie theater, he is thrown in jail. Now imagine if someone said “but it’s not fair, now that guy who yelled fire wont be able to finish the movie!”

    #1117181

    Sam2
    Participant

    You guys are missing my point. I didn’t say it’s bad because Goyim do it. I said it’s Assur to specifically look at an act that non-Jews do in their religious services and say, “Hey, that’s a good idea for us to do!” It’s an explicit Passuk in the Torah. Thinking of the same ideas is fine. Taking an idea spicifically from them is Assur.

    #1117182

    thegra
    Member

    Sam2: Ha, no you didn’t.

    You said “Interesting. Regardless of how good the idea is, I feel like this is an actual violation Min Hatorah of “Eichah Ya’avdu Hagoyim Ha’eileh Es Eloheihem”.

    Avi: “The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public”

    +1

    #1117184

    thegra3
    Member

    there should be more consequences for talking in shule. Sam2 is wrong. In my community in brooklyn they are afraid to throw people out because they dont want to loose membership.

    #1117185

    Oh Shreck!
    Participant

    Baruch HaShem, in the Kehilla where I daven, most are sincere about Davening. Absolutely no talking is allowed from beginning to end. I thank HaShem for such an opportunity. I get to realize the great benefit of such a place, from the times I do find myself in another Shul.

    Some places are REALLY a shanda! In one corner the chazzan is trying to come across with shiros vtishbachos to HaShem, in another corner (????? ?????), they’re socializing, shmoozing, laughing. Such chutzpah towards HaShem!! And sometimes the Chazzan, congregation cannot even compete!

    More disconcerting is that when the Rav gets up to speak, or someone “makes an appeal”, all of a sudden the place gets hushed, quiet. THE GALL!! More respect for mortals than for their Creator?!? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????!

    #1117186

    Toi
    Participant

    shrek- and you dont have taanoson those who stand fore the tfillah for the medinah, and sit during laining? ohhhhh

    #1117187

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, it might be not so proper, but I am not sure it is ossur — Islam is not an avodah zorah.

    #1117188

    Yussel
    Participant

    I don’t know why my comment was not posted, unless it ran afoul of the YWN thought police!! I’ll try again.

    Talking in shul is bad, but it’s not the end of the world. Perhaps we should all just “tend our own gardens”. If somebody is talking and disturbing you, ask him or her to stop.

    I, for one, am equally annoyed when people daven so loud that I can’t concentrate. I am also annoyed by the Yeshiva boys and kollel yungerlite who can’t stop “talking in learning” even when davening is going on. I do my best to daven in spite of what is going on and annoying me.

    Let’s all stop trying to show how we are holier than those “other people” and just serve Hashem for a change.

    (NOTE TO THE THOUGHT POLICE: If this is not mild enough for you, then just forget it)

    #1117189

    nitpicker
    Participant

    yussel wrote

    “Let’s all stop trying to show how we are holier than those “other people”

    Oh, is that what the posters are doing?

    I think you should apply your own advice to yourself.

    #1117190

    Toi
    Participant

    Yussel- its kinda funny that you have a live and let live approach to people talking during davening, but not to those who cant help but learn during davening? retarded.

    #1117191

    Oh Shreck!
    Participant

    Rebbie Yussel:

    Seforim too numerous to mention specify and outline the gravity of this sin. Sorry it’s not the end of the world to you. ?????? etc. is not by every other aveira. I’m not so knowledgeable in Halacha and Talmud, I’ll just suppose it’s a real grave offense.

    And you’re EQUALLY annoyed by another person’s davening!! To you they’re equal? One is talking to his creator, the other is laughing to His face, and to you they’re equal?!?

    #1117192

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    those who cant help but learn during davening?

    What the heck does that mean? Is someone holding a gun to their heads and saying “learn, or else?” Are their Roshei Yeshiva going around saying “I’d better see you learning during Chazaras HaShatz…?”

    The Wolf

    #1117193

    Yussel
    Participant

    Toi:

    I DON”T have a live and let live approach to talkers. I ask them to keep quiet. But if I am not successful, I don’t stress out about it.

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