May 17, 2013 4:01 am at 4:01 am #609341
So i’m talking to a coworker who is Muslim and he says that in the mosque during prayers if anyone attempts to talk he is thrown out of the mosque and banned from returning, maybe we should try this in some of the more talkative shuls. The talking during davening is really ridiculous.May 17, 2013 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1117142
Interesting. Regardless of how good the idea is, I feel like this is an actual violation Min Hatorah of “Eichah Ya’avdu Hagoyim Ha’eileh Es Eloheihem”.May 17, 2013 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1117143
Its become a huge problem and its a terrible chillul Hashem. Personally I think it is the Ravs Achrayis to do something about the talking and if he does nothing its on his head. I know certain shuls where talking is at a minimum and it is thanks to the Ravs of those shuls who make it a point that talking will not be tolerated. Its sad that some people have no feeling for kedushas beis haknesses u beis hamedrash.May 17, 2013 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1117144
Interesting…but everyone should be allowed in a shul as long as they are Jewish, a shul is a place to daven no matter who you are. Everybody should be welcome, if you don’t want the talkative speakers try to let them know talk isn’t accepted byvputting up signs or during speeches slip in mussar about it, if they wont feel so comfortable they’ll stop or they’ll leave.
Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates)
Please contact me to join.May 17, 2013 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1117145
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
That’s why so many Muslims go OTD.May 17, 2013 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1117146
DY- Post of the year.May 17, 2013 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1117147
The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public (apparently because they are endangering the community – the Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Chmielnitzky massacres on this). It would seem that the same would go fore those who bring small children who are incapable of being quiet (see Mishna Berura 97:3 and Kaf HaChaim 97:13 in the name of the Shela HaKadosh that this is a triple aveira: chillul kedushat bet haknesset, gezel tefilla and negative chinuch).May 17, 2013 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1117148
So you rather people don’t daven at all? I think there are better ways to solve this problem.May 17, 2013 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1117149
Let them know they are not welcome, slip in mussar during the speech (if your the one who gives the speech, if not ask the guy to do it) or start an awareness program or something
Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.May 17, 2013 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1117150
Brisker, yes it would be better if they daven at home or even not at all. Zero is more than a negative number.May 17, 2013 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1117151
people who talk during davening are not interested in davening they should not come to shul at allMay 17, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1117152
+1 dafyomi (who no like button?)
Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.May 17, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1117153
what? shopping i dont get it!May 17, 2013 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1117154
I meant who is there no like button here? My spell check does funny things and when I don’t catch the mistake before it gets posted…..
Shppping613 Founder, president, and awarder of SUC (single username certificates) Please contact me to join.May 17, 2013 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1117156
Avi K – Okay, and where in S”A can I find that?May 17, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1117157
yea I don’t think we should take advice from the most radical faction on the planet.May 17, 2013 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1117158
dafyomi – some people who talk in shul are very interested in davening but can’t stay focused for that long. Feel free to toss the baby with the bathwater, I’d rather encourage their coming quietly. There is a huge difference between advocating for the cessation of all talking, and advocating for the cessation of all talkers. The later is not a Torahdik concept.May 17, 2013 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1117159
cut it outMay 17, 2013 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1117160
There are halachos about when you can and can’t talk. There are many sefarim that say it is better to stay home then come and talk. We don’t understand the chutzpah it is to come to the King of all kingsls throne room so to speak and start talking to a human being and ignore the King. It would be rude to do this with anyone let alone a king and al achad kamah vkamah withHashem!May 17, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1117161
I would say whatever they do we should the opposite as lets look what they produce!!!!!!!!!!!May 17, 2013 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1117162
syag you cant stay focused knowing that your talking to the R”SO who controls your every move and needs! if you go to shul to talk where do you daven!May 17, 2013 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1117163
WIY – I think you misunderstood. My point was NOT whether or not people should be excused from talking. I personally don’t send my children to shul til they are older. What I said was that you can condemn the talking and work on putting an end to it, but some posters were asking to get rid of the people who are talking. Why not just find a way to help them stop? Why not daven that they should stop? Our job is to condemn and put an end to talking in shul. Our job is not to put an end to the people. That attitude that those who do something bad are bad is what has screwed up so many of our children for so many years. No talking should be allowed. Period. Anyone who talks is more than welcome to continue coming as long as they remain quiet.May 19, 2013 6:19 am at 6:19 am #1117164
Pardon my ignorance as I am but a simpleton, an Am Ha’aretz devoid of halachic wisdom, but… The ????? posted above all seem to have been written in a time when ????? ?????? was comparitavely a non issue. Are there any contemporary poskim (1990-present) that have adressed the matter with similar gravity? If do, pls share them… Perhaps these days, with shul being at the center of Jewish life, i can see why there’s a certain level of tolerance, in an effort to avoid ?????? and drive people away from the religion H”V. Of course it’s up to the rabbi to use his discretion as to what the threshold of tolerance is, and the method used to address the issue. You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.May 19, 2013 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1117165
Brisker, you can find it in the fifth section.
E-O-M, what about not pushing away kerovim? Maybe we can have special halfway-house shuls where people talk and there is a chazan to make them think that they are in a shul. However, IMHO (based on experience0 peopel are attracted to Judaism because they are looking for Judaism. They already have places to talk. If you want to read contemporary articles on this problem just google “talking in shul”.May 19, 2013 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1117166
I was once in a very “choshuv” shul in Brooklyn and it was chol hamoed and for chazaras hashatz for both shacharis and mussaf 2 guys sat underneath a poster with the Tosfos Yom Tov Tefilla for not talking during davening and they just would not stop talking. I didn’t have my phone on me or I would have videoed it and put on youtube.
edited for lashon haraMay 20, 2013 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1117167
sorry about thatMay 20, 2013 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1117168
Talking during davening is one of my pet peeves. Few things bother me more.
However, I don’t admonish people about it. I just sit there and bear it. The one time I actually said something to someone about it, I felt incredibly guilty and bad about it. I will not being doing so again in the future. Instead, I’ll just do what I usually do — sit and do a slow burn.
The WolfMay 20, 2013 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1117169
The Muslims also wake up around 5:00 AM (Neitz time) to pray, and some Yidden can not even get to shul on-time, which is at a later time.May 20, 2013 3:07 am at 3:07 am #1117170
Sam2, Islam is not an avodah zorah.
Syag le’chochmah, people who do bad things are bad. That’s the emes al pi Torah. Maybe, some people these days can not accept this, but that is the truth.May 20, 2013 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1117171
while agreeing witn the discussion
I must say, and others agree with me, that there has been tremendous improvement in many shules in this inyan.May 20, 2013 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1117172
I wish that were really so but all the shuls I daven in in my neighborhood seem to be getting worse one shul extremely worse to the point where I wasn’t sure there was a minyan responding amein at times.May 20, 2013 5:54 am at 5:54 am #1117173
I know a rav who stopped the davening whenever someone talked. They realized that the more they talked the later they would get out.May 20, 2013 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1117174
how can you dispute something I’ve seen just because you witnessed something else? I am sorry to hear that your neighborhood has not yet gotten with it.
Some shules where the talking was rampant and the talkers insolent when rebuked, are now mostly quiet. Others, though still bad, are not as bad as they used to be.
( perhaps a new thread should be started about gabboim and officers who think they have special dispensations, despite shushing others.)May 20, 2013 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1117176
mdd: So we can steal their religious practices? Whether or not it’s A”Z for their Dinim, it’s certainly K’firah for us and Eichah Ya’avdu should apply.May 20, 2013 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1117177
mdd: you are absolutely right. Sam2 is wrong…..again.
Perhaps we should do away with not allowing grafiti being written on the shule walls. I am sure muslims do not allow grafiti in their mosques so lehavdeel we should dafka allow people to spray grafiti all over the walls.
You should just ignore Sam2. For that matter, while we are at it, let’s not use light bulbs or have a shule president because they use light bulbs and have presidents in churches.May 20, 2013 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1117178
That’s actually a very smart mehalech. Props to that Rav.May 20, 2013 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1117179
Just because Muslims do it doesn’t intrinsically make the act bad- in fact, in this case it could be great by improving kavanah and yirah during davening, while making shul a serious place, without leitzonus.
Accept emes from whatever its source- kalus Rosh is bad in davening whether or not Muslims say its badMay 20, 2013 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1117180
yes, that’s why Sam2, as I said, is completely wrong.
real-brisker: “So you rather people don’t daven at all? I think there are better ways to solve this problem.”
They can daven at home beyachid. There are consequences for people’s actions. If someone yells fire in a movie theater, he is thrown in jail. Now imagine if someone said “but it’s not fair, now that guy who yelled fire wont be able to finish the movie!”May 20, 2013 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1117181
You guys are missing my point. I didn’t say it’s bad because Goyim do it. I said it’s Assur to specifically look at an act that non-Jews do in their religious services and say, “Hey, that’s a good idea for us to do!” It’s an explicit Passuk in the Torah. Thinking of the same ideas is fine. Taking an idea spicifically from them is Assur.May 20, 2013 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1117182
Sam2: Ha, no you didn’t.
You said “Interesting. Regardless of how good the idea is, I feel like this is an actual violation Min Hatorah of “Eichah Ya’avdu Hagoyim Ha’eileh Es Eloheihem”.
Avi: “The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public”
+1May 20, 2013 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1117184
there should be more consequences for talking in shule. Sam2 is wrong. In my community in brooklyn they are afraid to throw people out because they dont want to loose membership.May 20, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1117185
Baruch HaShem, in the Kehilla where I daven, most are sincere about Davening. Absolutely no talking is allowed from beginning to end. I thank HaShem for such an opportunity. I get to realize the great benefit of such a place, from the times I do find myself in another Shul.
Some places are REALLY a shanda! In one corner the chazzan is trying to come across with shiros vtishbachos to HaShem, in another corner (????? ?????), they’re socializing, shmoozing, laughing. Such chutzpah towards HaShem!! And sometimes the Chazzan, congregation cannot even compete!
More disconcerting is that when the Rav gets up to speak, or someone “makes an appeal”, all of a sudden the place gets hushed, quiet. THE GALL!! More respect for mortals than for their Creator?!? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????!May 20, 2013 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1117186
shrek- and you dont have taanoson those who stand fore the tfillah for the medinah, and sit during laining? ohhhhhMay 20, 2013 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1117187
Sam2, it might be not so proper, but I am not sure it is ossur — Islam is not an avodah zorah.May 20, 2013 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1117188
I don’t know why my comment was not posted, unless it ran afoul of the YWN thought police!! I’ll try again.
Talking in shul is bad, but it’s not the end of the world. Perhaps we should all just “tend our own gardens”. If somebody is talking and disturbing you, ask him or her to stop.
I, for one, am equally annoyed when people daven so loud that I can’t concentrate. I am also annoyed by the Yeshiva boys and kollel yungerlite who can’t stop “talking in learning” even when davening is going on. I do my best to daven in spite of what is going on and annoying me.
Let’s all stop trying to show how we are holier than those “other people” and just serve Hashem for a change.
(NOTE TO THE THOUGHT POLICE: If this is not mild enough for you, then just forget it)May 20, 2013 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1117189
“Let’s all stop trying to show how we are holier than those “other people”
Oh, is that what the posters are doing?
I think you should apply your own advice to yourself.May 20, 2013 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1117190
Yussel- its kinda funny that you have a live and let live approach to people talking during davening, but not to those who cant help but learn during davening? retarded.May 20, 2013 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1117191
Seforim too numerous to mention specify and outline the gravity of this sin. Sorry it’s not the end of the world to you. ?????? etc. is not by every other aveira. I’m not so knowledgeable in Halacha and Talmud, I’ll just suppose it’s a real grave offense.
And you’re EQUALLY annoyed by another person’s davening!! To you they’re equal? One is talking to his creator, the other is laughing to His face, and to you they’re equal?!?May 20, 2013 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1117192
those who cant help but learn during davening?
What the heck does that mean? Is someone holding a gun to their heads and saying “learn, or else?” Are their Roshei Yeshiva going around saying “I’d better see you learning during Chazaras HaShatz…?”
The WolfMay 20, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1117193
I DON”T have a live and let live approach to talkers. I ask them to keep quiet. But if I am not successful, I don’t stress out about it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.