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- This topic has 24 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by Sam2.
October 22, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #610972dafyomi2711Member
I wonder if anyone in the CR would know: Why is the talmud Yerushalmi written in aramaic if they spoke hebrew in E”Y? (tha aramaic in shekalim is actually harder to understand then most of the aramaic in bavli!October 22, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1026609LevAryehMember
I can’t completely help you, but a starting point might be the Gemara in Bava Kama on 6a (by the two dots starting with ?????? ?? ?????:)October 22, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1026610Israeli ChareidiParticipant
They spoke Aramaic in EY too. Hebrew fell out of conversational use during golus Bavel. Written hebrew, as in the mishnayos prevailed much longer. However, as you pointed out, the dialect used in EY was very different from that used in Bavel.October 22, 2013 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1026611klazno4Participant
dafyomi2711 – Yidden in the second bais hamikdash era spoke Aramaic not hebrew.October 22, 2013 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1026612akupermaParticipant
1. I did some random word counts, and whereas the Babli is perhaps 70% Aramaic, the Yerusalami is at least 70% Hebrew (including Aramaic cognates).
3. The commercial language of the region was Aramaic and many when two languages are used together, words get borrowed (cf. Yiddish and Hebrew in Jewish Brooklynese)October 22, 2013 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1026613Avram in MDParticipant
I think during the days when the Talmud Yerushalmi was compiled, Aramaic was the common language in Eretz Yisroel as well as in Babylon. As for why the Aramaic might be harder to understand, perhaps the dialects are different?October 22, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1026614
The only reason why the Aramaic in the Yerushalmi is harder than the Bavli is that we’re used to that of the Bavli!October 22, 2013 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1026615
The Aramaic of the Yerushalmi is more difficult because we are used to the Shakla V’tarya of the Bavli, which the Savoraim and early Geonim went over meticulously to establish a Girsa and rules of Shakla V’tarya to ease learning. No such thing happened to the Yerushalmi. Therefore there is a much less uniform Shakla V’tarya and it’s much more difficult to understand.
(The same is true of parts of T’murah, M’ilah, and to a lesser extent Nazir.)October 23, 2013 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1026616
The Gemara in Eiruvin discusses the Aramaic of Yehuda and the Galil.
Like Sam said, the difficulty is more in the manner of talking than the words used. Also, according to some explanations of certain Sugyos, the yerushalmi can bring a Raaya from a Braysa, and if not for the whole Shakla Vetarya in the Bavli we would never know what was meant.
The truth is I have no idea who worked on the Yerushalmi. It is never referred to as a finished or atonomous Talmud, in the Bavli.October 23, 2013 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1026617
HaLeiVi: Are you sure? I thought the Gemara in Chagigah (second Perek, if I recall correctly) does. It talks about one Amora Davening to forget all his learning in one Shas so he could relearn the other.October 23, 2013 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1026618ChchamMember
The Talmud Yerushalmi is written in Aramaic because that’s what everyone in Israel spoke at the time. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East at the time, before it was replaced by Arabic. The Palestinian dialect was different than the Babylonian dialect because that’s what happens when people live far away from each other (Like British English vs American English vs Australian English). It is also harder to study because before it could be finished, everyone moved to Bavel (which is why we hold like the Bavli in case of a machlokes)October 23, 2013 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1026619
Maarava is mentioned plenty of times, but not as having a ready made Talmud. You are probably referring to Rebbe Zeira. That is pretty early on and the Gemara does quote things from him from after he went to Eretz Yisroel. In fact, it seems like that’s where he met Rebbe Yirmiya.
Rebbe Yochanan and Reish Lakish, Chizkiya, Reb Eliezer, Rebbe Hoshia are part of Bavli.October 23, 2013 5:20 am at 5:20 am #1026620Avi KParticipant
I heard that when Rabbi Yochanan redacted the Yerushalmi he deliberately used difficult language so that when the horaat shaah to write down Tora SheBall Peh was revoked (which he hoped would be soon) people would not use it as a crutch.As for the lingua franca, it was probably Greek as this was the common language of the eastern Roman Empire although different dialects of Aramaic were also spoken locally. Chachamim spoke Hebrew as we see in the Mishna. In fact, even Rebbe’s maid was an expert in it. The admixtures are mainly Greek and Latin and may have been used when speaking to baalei battim.October 23, 2013 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1026621
Greek and Aramaic are not related and we know what they look like. The Medrash is peppered with Greek and Latin but not so much the Talmudim.
The Mishna is Lashon Hakodesh because it is Torah. I have seen, though, that in Eretz Yisroel they spoke Lashon Hakodesh and purposely used Aramaic for these things. However, the examples in Eiruvin suggest that they spoke Aramaic. Perhaps it depends on the period.October 23, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1026622twistedParticipant
I was curious why yerushalmi Sheqalim was included in the Bavli daf cycle, and not say Kilayim, or the rest of seder Zraiim. Of course then the cycle would be way beyond seven years.October 23, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1026623berntoutParticipant
HaLeiVi: Latin!?October 23, 2013 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1026624dafyomi2711Member
twisted shekalim is in seder moed a very halacha lemaaseh seder and the cycle wanted to include a gemara on every mesechta in the seder to have a complete seder with gemara. We only do brochos in seder zeraiim.October 23, 2013 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1026625besalelParticipant
as the introduction in the artscroll says, the reason shkulim was included in the cycle was because the vilna shas used to print shkulim with bavli. the cycle is based on what the printer included in the volumes and what it did not.
with respect to yerushalmi aramaic versus bavli: (1) as stated before, aramaic was the language of israel in those days (see, mel gibson, passion of the christ) (2) as stated before, the dialects differed.
it is also important to note that both gemaras are essentially a collection of peoples notes. the notes collected for yerushalmi were reprinted in a form much closer to its original. there was less editing. hence, yerushalmi appears in shorthand.
as stated above, the bavli went through extensive editing over the years and evolved to what you see today. the yerushalmi is less evolved.October 23, 2013 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1026626
Twisted: There are various theories, the most common one is that R’ Meir Shapiro wanted to finish the entire Seder Moed, just as he included Tamid, Midos , and Kinim to finish the entire Seder Kodshim. This theory fails, however, when we consider Seder Nezikin, which is missing both Avos and Eduyos. The theory of R’ Mordechai Kornfeld of Kollel Iyun haDaf is that when we learn the Halachos of Korbanos and the Beis Hamikdash then it is as if we have performed the Avodah (Menachos 110a). Therefore, All Masechtos lacking Bavli that have to do with Kodshim were included. None of this has anything to do with why the Yerushalmi Shekalim is printed in the Bavli This has to do with that which it is not much longer than the Mishnayos, which would have been printed there anyway, and therefore it was included.October 23, 2013 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1026627
mobico: They did not do Shekalim (or Kinnim and Middos) in the first few Machzorim, so that theory falls through. The simple answer is that around 6-7 Machzorim ago we switched to include everything printed with the Bavli.
Shekalim was printed with the Bavli to just include the entire Seder.October 24, 2013 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1026628
Sam2 – Um, no. All of these Masechtos were always learned in the Daf Yomi cycle. You are probably confusing this with a different issue. Namely, Shekalim had no specific pagination unlike the Bavli. When R’ Meir Shapiro first established Daf Yomi , the common Gemaros then had a 13-Daf Shekalim in the back. That is why the first couple of Daf Yomi cycles were only 2,702 days long – nine days shorter than the present one, which is based on the common printing of a 22-Daf Shekalim. (There are also 12- Daf and 30-Daf printings of Shekalim. I personally wouldn’t mind the 30-Daf one!)August 8, 2014 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1026629Patur Aval AssurParticipant
In several shuls I have recently seen these new soft covered Yerushalmis put out (for people to take?) on the parts dealing with the churban. In the beginning they had several quotes from R’ Chaim Kanievsky about Yerushalmi.
One of them was:
?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ???August 8, 2014 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1026630sam4321Participant
Patur Aval Assur: An interesting gematria from the Gra which shows the importance of both the Yerushalmi and bavli,and its connection to redemption.We actually just read this passuk last week(last passuk of Chazon).
??????? ???????????? ????????? ?????????? ??????????. When breaking it up into ??????? ???????????? ????????? which = 1076 and ?????????? ?????????? equals 524. ????? ??????? equals 1076 and ????? ???? equals 524, they match the idea in the passuk,Tzion is Yerushalmi,and the exiled is bavali .August 8, 2014 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1026631yerushalmi in exileParticipant
did you notice the zohar is also in the eretz yisroel dialect of Aramaic,August 8, 2014 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1026632
yie: Actually, the Zohar is entirely its own dialect of Aramaic, one which is often much easier to read than Yerushalmis (mostly because it often uses full sentences).
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