talmud yerushalmi

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  • #617575

    square root of 2
    Participant

    why do people usually learn talmud bavli and not yerushalmi?

    #1148344

    based on many reasons among them:

    1)it covers more of todays life & halachos then yerushalmi

    2)the Rabbonim for thousands of years have been following the Bavli & their talmidim continued following it

    3)its a much easier understanding & has more explanation on the topic being discussed

    #1148345

    Sam2
    Participant

    According to the Rif, because we Pasken by it over the Yerushalmi.

    Even without that, Pashtus is that the Savoraim/Stammaim and Geonim were learning Bavli much more. That’s why our Bavli has a clear Shakla V’tarya and more-or-less standardized Girsaos, which the Yerushalmi clearly doesn’t.

    #1148346

    square root of 2
    Participant

    So back the question up a little bit. Why has talmud bavli been learned for years, and not yerushalmi?

    #1148347

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. The Babli covers more interesting stuff, and covers it more thoroughly. This is largely a function of the fact that the Yerusalami’s development was interrupted whereas the Babli’s continued longer (goyim can be a nuisance at times, can’t they).

    2. Since the Babli is more respected and more widely studied, it was printed more often. There isn’t even a universal structure to a Yerusalami page, whereas the Babli has had a set “Tsuras ha-Daf” for 500 years.

    #1148348

    charliehall
    Participant

    “According to the Rif, because we Pasken by it over the Yerushalmi.”

    Did he say that even for the agricultural laws for which the Yerushalmi has much more detailed discussions? We just had such an issue come up today in daf Yomi.

    “Why has talmud bavli been learned for years, and not yerushalmi? “

    Maybe it is because the Bavli is much easier to learn? I just finished my seventh Yerushalmi tractate (siyum erev Pesach!) and only Berachot has been straightforward (and in that case it helped that I was learning Bavli Berachot in parallel).

    #1148349

    square root of 2
    Participant

    I find it hard to believe that the bavli is learned more because it’s more interesting.

    #1148350

    147
    Participant

    Maybe it is because the Bavli is much easier to learn? This was for the past millennia, but with the recent advent of the Yedid Nefesh translation of Yerushalmi into Ivrit by Rav Yechiel Avrohom Bar Lev shlita, & Steinsaltz on Peoh, and even more recently with Artscroll bringing out Yerushalmi tractate by tractate, the Din for someone today not learning Yerushalmi, shall be far more severe than for any past generation.

    I have already learned Shevi’is twice, once each past Shemita, as well as Berochos & Peoh, and IY’H more to come.

    #1148351

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Bavli was redacted later and takes the Yerushalmi into account. This follows the general rule of halacha k’batra. Rambam, however, sometimes paskens like the Yerushalmi.

    #1148352

    writersoul
    Member

    It was generally the gemara which was brought to other countries first, which meant it was learned first, became prominent before Yerushalmi was brought over, and therefore became preferred.

    As in, for example, at least some tosafos had Yerushalmi, but by and large preferred referencing Bavli because many didn’t have access to Yerushalmi and it seemed more “respectable” in a way to reference Bavli which was more “mainstream.”

    #1148353

    Sam2
    Participant

    Presumably (but this is a presumption) the Bavli was learned more because the two main Yeshivos that the Savoraim and Geonim were carry-overs from are the Yeshivos where the Bavli was redacted. We have a Mesorah directly from the Bavli. We do not have such a Mesorah from the Yerushalmi (though the Babylonian Yeshivos obviously had much influence from the Yerushalmi ones).

    There are those who wonder if there may have been a third major Yeshivah that some of the Ashkenazi Geonim came from (because some of their Psakim make no sense according to our Gemara) that wasn’t redacted in the Bavli. Some of the stranger Psakim out of Ashkenaz line up a bit more with the Yerushalmi than Bavli, so maybe that Yeshivah had more of a Yerushalmi Mesorah.

    #1148354

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    sam2, any examples of Ashkenazi p’sakim that don’t make according to the g’mara?

    #1148355

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Three hours between meat and milk?

    #1148356

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    There are no poskim who say to wait three hours.

    #1148357

    Joseph
    Participant

    How do the Yekkes do three hours, then?

    #1148358

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    How? The Rama says that 1 hr is ok.

    Why? is a better question.

    There’s actually a letter from R’ Hirsh advising they wait 6 hrs.

    #1148359

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There may not be any written psakim to that effect, but plenty of gedolim and poskim did wait three, and maaseh rav = psak as far as I’m concerned.

    #1148360

    writersoul
    Member

    That doesn’t make sense, but I don’t think it goes back as far as the era about which Dr Soloveitchik made his thesis- you wouldn’t need it to explain that. I haven’t read the essay in a while so I don’t remember exactly what he was referring to.

    I’ve heard people say that the three hours thing is based on a typo or misreading but I could be mixing that up.

    #1148361

    nanonino
    Member

    just bec artscroll came out with it in english doesnt mean that everyone sld be lrning yerushalmi nonthing against artscroll but its not meant to be a crutch for the person using it to look up the occasinal question or tranlastion is ok but to always use it that not the way to lrn

    #1148362

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I have already learned Shevi’is twice, once each past Shemita, as well as Berochos & Peoh, and IY’H more to come. “

    Mazel tov, Mazel tov, Mazel tov, and Mazel tov!!!

    #1148363

    charliehall
    Participant

    “any examples of Ashkenazi p’sakim that don’t make according to the g’mara? “

    Women reading Megillat Esther for a man. (Although Rashi had no problem with it and he was an Ashkenazi.)

    #1148364

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    DY, which poskim waited 3 hours?

    charliehall, the bahag’s source is the y’rushalmi.

    #1148365

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I am assuming some of the German gedolim did, although I don’t know this for a fact.

    The Darchei Teshuvah discusses this minhag.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40536&st=&pgnum=275&hilite=

    #1148366

    Sam2
    Participant

    Women reading Megila is a good one. The Bahag has many others, though. Which is kinda the point.

    #1148367

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Sam2, the bahag’s source is the y’rushalmi.

    #1148368

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    DY: As mentioned earlier, the Rema said that the German custom was to wait 1 hour, but he recommended doing 6 (I think the 1 hour might also be mentioned by the maharil, but I don’t actually know). The 3 hour custom really came out of nowhere.

    Everyone agrees that if one is in the habit of waiting 6, he cannot switch to 3 even if it’s more in line with the customs of his ancestors, probably because the 3 hour has no source. I follow western Ashkenaz minhag, so I am, by no means, ‘out to get it’ or anything.

    #1148369

    Sam2
    Participant

    The main source for 3 hours is a typo in the Rabbeinu Yerucham. There are other, minor sources, or so my Yekkish friends tell me.

    #1148370

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I thought it was a typo in a kitzur version of Rabbeinu Yerucham that disagrees with the main text; otherwise, how would we know that it’s a typo? I could be wrong, however.

    Anyway, what does this have to do with the Yerushalmi? I thought the only time when the gemarra spoke of waiting after meat, it mentioned waiting a full day, and clearly nobody holds that way. Any minhag in this department could be said to be different than the gemarra.

    What about washing before kiddush? I was told that this is how beis Shammai held. If that’s true, then it’s kind of weird we (some of us) hold that way. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

    #1148371

    square root of 2
    Participant

    So basically it seems that yerushalmi, for one reason or the other, is less accepted in halacha than bavli is. IS that a fair summary?

    Sam2, that’s very interesting (that there may be a third gemara). Does anyone have any proof one way or the other?

    #1148372

    Sam2
    Participant

    NC: Because he quotes Rashi as saying 3. And we know Rashi says 6. And we have manuscripts that say 6 (or so I’m told).

    The washing before Kiddush thing is a misunderstanding of the Gemara in Brachos, IMO.

    #1148373

    Joseph
    Participant

    Doesn’t shtim that the masses of Yekkes follow a mistaken minhag based on a “typo”.

    #1148374

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Sam: Washing before Kiddush does have a source, the Rema. I would like to believe he understood the Gemarra pretty well. I’m not sure why the Eastern Ashkenazi poskim started going against the Rema here.

    Joseph: I imagine the 3 hour custom exists independently of that typo. One theory is that 3 hours is a chumrah(!) on the previous 1 hour German custom.

    I’m curious as to the actual demographics of people waiting 3 hours. From being around the block, it seems like the people who are just doing it out of minhag lazy far outnumber the people doing it because of an established yekkish tradition.

    #1148375

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think DY posted previously on another thread that there is an active legitimate minhag, even today, of waiting only one hour. Dutch minhag, if I recall?

    #1148376

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Amsterdam Sphardi, yes.

    #1148377

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    Ari K is correct. However, it is critical for serious student to learn Talmud Yerushalmi because there are topic and laws that are not mentioned in the T.B. The general rule is that where the T.B. and T.Y. argue we follow the T.B. BUT where the T.Y. states a law not mentioned in T.B. or not argued with it, we follow the T.Y. when you learn Hilchos Berchos, the Rosh mentioned many laws from T.Y. That is why I’m on my second cycle of T.Y.

    #1148378

    Sam2
    Participant

    NC: You misunderstood me. The idea that the current Minhag of some to wash before Kiddush is related to Shittas Beis Shammai in the Gemara in Berachos is a misunderstanding of that Gemara. I apologize if I wasn’t clear.

    1.4: No proof. Nor any real way to prove it. It’s not that there is a third Gemara. It’s that there was a third major Yeshiva that is more Yerushalmi-based than Bavli-based. It has no proof. It’s just a theory that answers a lot of questions.

    #1148379

    Joseph
    Participant

    Most Sephardim hold 6 hours?

    #1148380

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Most do, yeah. Not all. Some do the 5.5/into the 6th also.

    #1148381

    Joseph
    Participant

    How does the the 5.5/into the 6th work and is it legit and the minhag by any non-Sephardim?

    #1148382

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’m sorry, Sam. I did misunderstand that; that was my fault.

    Joseph: Correct. Why are these Sphardim different from all others? 😉

    #1148383

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    from “dose of halacha .com”:

    #1148384

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    1.4: No proof. Nor any real way to prove it. It’s not that there is a third Gemara. It’s that there was a third major Yeshiva that is more Yerushalmi-based than Bavli-based. It has no proof. It’s just a theory that answers a lot of questions.

    A lot of unasked questions.

    #1148385

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: What do you mean, “how does it work”? I don’t know where they came from, and I haven’t seen it mentioned in old Seforim, but the Minhagim are at least (from thirdhand testimony) well over 100 years old, for whatever that’s worth.

    #1148386

    Joseph
    Participant

    I mean what does the 5.5 into the 6th mean? They start eating milichigs 5.5 hours after the last bite of fleishigs? Who has this minhag?

    #1148387

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Yes, they start eating dairy either 5.5 hours after or a little over 5 hours after. I have seen this Minhag lots of places, including among some in Chareidi communities in Eretz Yisrael.

    #1148388

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph: It comes from the Rambam who apparently said to wait “about” 6 hours. If you’ve waited 5 full hours, that means you’re in the sixth hour. Just like if you’re 25 years old, you’re in your 26th year. Some Sphardim I know wait 6 full hours for beef, and wait “into the sixth hour” for poultry.

    So, yes, it means they start eating milchig 5 hours or 5 and a half hours after fleishig. I don’t really know with what area the minhag would be associated. I’ve never actually come across anyone who only wait into the sixth for all types of meat.

    #1148389

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    neville- those sefardim you know seem to be mixing shitos (rambam and s”a). Rambam specifically says “bein basar beheima bein basar ohf” you have to wait “kimo sheish shaos.” And s”a specifically says 6 hours for all types of meat.

    #1148390

    charliehall
    Participant

    “the bahag’s source is the y’rushalmi”

    Actually it is a Tosefta. We don’t usually pasken by Toseftas that contradict an explicit Mishnah, especially when there is an unopposed Bavli that supports the Mishnah. But who am I to argue with the BeHaG? (Rashi, Rambam, and the Shulchan Aruch do.)

    #1148391

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    charliehall, ‘??? brings the ??????, the ??”? and ????? bring it from the ???????.

    We don’t usually pasken by Toseftas that contradict an explicit Mishnah,

    there isn’t any explicit ???? regarding this; there’s at mosst a ???? in ????? (explaining a ????) which the above ??????? reconcile with the ??”?’s position.

    especially when there is an unopposed Bavli that supports the Mishnah

    if you’re referring to the ‘?? in ?????, it doesn’t say anything explicitly; the ????? actually brings an alternative ????? which supports the ??”?’s position.

    Even ?????? that there is an explicit ???? not like the ??”?, the legend about a 3rd ????? during the talmudic era will do nothing to resolve his position.

    #1148392

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Zogt: You might be right. It could just be that there were people holding like the Rambam who decided they’ve already waited almost 6 full hours so they might as well go all the way, but did not do the same for poultry since it’s rabbinic.

    In other words, you’re probably right about the mixing of sources.

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