July 4, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #884645
An aveira which can incur a death sentence is more chomur than others, which can’t — mevuar in Gemora and Rishonim.
Plus, I do not control the crooks either.
Stop covering up for the ba’alei aveira!July 4, 2012 3:18 am at 3:18 am #884646
yitayningwut -“Health – From a strictly halachic point of view there is no issue whatsoever. The issue would be Lifnei Iver, and you are too many steps removed from the actual issur for this to apply. See Avodah Zarah 14a and Shulchan Aruch YD 151:1 with the first Pischei Teshuva.”
You make it too easy. I was going to bring Rayos from Gittin, but you handed it to me.
Btw, I own a SA. I don’t need any links.
Back to the P.T. He got this from the Baer Haytiv. If you would have looked at the B.H. -you’d have seen if they are definitely going to use it for AZ -then it’s always Ossur.
I said buying Pride stuff is Zichur Ossur because they use the money to promote their lifestyle. In other words they use the money to promote legalization and other defenses. This isn’t L’fney D’lefney. This money is in violation of one of the 7. They are Mechuyav to pass laws and punish for the other 6. This money is used to fight this Chiyuv. What did you think they use this money for?!?!? So if you don’t know which products are being sold for this -then it would be Kmechza Oochemechza Domi.
But acc. to the OP they label it “Pride” products. So if this is true – you wouldn’t have a problem buying other stuff in Target.July 4, 2012 3:36 am at 3:36 am #884647
This is lifnei d’lifnei.July 4, 2012 3:38 am at 3:38 am #884648
I often find that the happies are pleasant non-anti Semitic people to deal withJuly 4, 2012 3:53 am at 3:53 am #884649
yitayningwut -“This is lifnei d’lifnei.”
No, it’s not. Using money to stop it from being illegal or to promote it would be Ossur as not keeping one of the 7 Mitzvos.
It’s no different than selling a product to be used for AZ.
Acc. to you that should also be L’fney D’lefney because no one forced them to use it for AZ. That was their decision. Using money to prevent Anti-Toeiva legislation isn’t Lifney D’lefney.July 4, 2012 4:02 am at 4:02 am #884650
Target is promoting nothing except their bottom line. If they felt that selling these items and advertising that all proceeds go to support the leprechauns and their rainbow did not increase sales in any way, they would drop it quickly.July 4, 2012 4:06 am at 4:06 am #884651
Health – Yes, it is. No one is changing any laws with my twenty bucks. It will go from one person to the next, to the next, to the next, and then together with a million other dollars it might possibly be one of many factors in what causes whatever legislation you are referring to to be passed. And I have no idea which one of the seven mitzvos it would break anyway. Last I checked it was already legal for two people to do whatever they want in that regard. This is just about pride, which may be offensive to Torah values, but is not one of the seven mitzvos. If you have a hashkafic issue with it, fine. There is no question of issur though.July 4, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #884652
The Lifnei Iver discussion is moot anyway. This money might be going to support and empower people who live a certain lifestyle, but the “lifestyle” is not the issue here. Your money is in no way directly helping someone perform an act of Mishkab Zachor.July 4, 2012 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #884653
mdd, and others, I’m not covering up for baalei averah. Their whole point, in this pride business, is to dafka NOT cover up. They don’t need or care for my “defense”, as you portray it.
I’m not arguing that it isn’t an issur. It is. I’m not arguing that it is not as severe an issur as other dinei nefashos. It is. If I gave that impression, I retract it.
What I am decrying is the reaction of the frum oilem to this while it ignores other problems closer to home. If the Torah describes business corruption with the same loshon as this, and it does, WHY IS THAT TRANSGRESSION ALL BUT IGNORED, while this becomes a cause celebre? And I might add – it is the secular law and the secular freedoms that are being criticized, the same ones that protect us from persecution. We do not live in a halachic state, and moreover we are not discussing the halachic ramifications of this activity – they are perfectly clear. We ARE discussing support for it in the public realm, and I am raising the issue of the fascination the frum oilem has with this issue to the detriment of addressing far more pertinent and pressing issues described with the same condemnatory loshon in the Torah.
And for those who like mdd say that it is because this is more chomur and incurs the death penalty that they deal with it more prominently, I have to ask – Are you adressing chilul shabbos (by non jews, no less, at stores like target or walmart) in the same way, or even BY Jews? It is dinei nefashos, and it happens EVERY WEEK right in front of you, so why aren’t you out there protesting or boycotting?
What about palmreaders and fortunetellers? also chayav misah. Are you addressing their transgressions? Have you tracked down every yid who ever hit a parent? Cursed a parent? Do you spend as much energy confronting the Jews for Jesus crew, who are definitely chayyav misha and are active in our communities? (I know that I do, this one especially). How about those who flout the authority of a beis din? Devarim yud ches calls for the death penalty. What about protesting in front of catholic churches, which transgress the first of the shevah mitzvos bnei noach?
All of these are mideoraisah. I am not even going to get into derabonon.
There is at least one reason you don’t, and that is that you live in a country with rational laws and you respect dina demalchusa dina.
So if you are not a hypocrite about what it is about this particular transgression that makes it a priority, it must be something else. Is it the way the Torah describes it, as a toeivah, an abomination? If so, I ask you to address my original question about other things described the same way.
Or maybe, just maybe, it isn’t that either, it is rather social and political motivation that impels you – and that is your prerogative, I won’t criticize you for it. Just don’t wrap it up in Torah to justify yourself.July 4, 2012 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #884654
Very well said Yichusdik!July 4, 2012 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #884655
yitayningwut -“There is no question of issur though.”
This is not what I think.
“No one is changing any laws with my twenty bucks. It will go from one person to the next, to the next, to the next, and then together with a million other dollars it might possibly be one of many factors in what causes whatever legislation you are referring to to be passed. Last I checked it was already legal for two people to do whatever they want in that regard.”
It doesn’t matter that it’s legal. They use the money to keep it legal and to get more “civil rights”. Even if they need lots of money to do this, every Prutah that is given to this cause is Meesiyah Leiday Aveira. This is such a simple concept -I don’t understand why you don’t Chap it.
“And I have no idea which one of the seven mitzvos it would break anyway.”
All Goyim are Mechuyav to have Courts and these Courts have to punish for the other 6. This money prevents any candidate to get into office that would illegalize their behavior. If we lived in a dictatorship then maybe the regular Hamone Am wouldn’t be Oiver on this Mitzva, but that’s not the way our Gov. works.July 4, 2012 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #884656
I’ll respond to the Yichusdik’s words later when I have time.July 4, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #884657
yichusdik, Nobody ever said we have to protest and confront everybody who is doing something wrong.
However here target decided actively support Toaivah which is a turned me off and perhaps other peopleas well .July 5, 2012 12:49 am at 12:49 am #884658
I think you are making too much of this. Target is not promoting or endorsing any social causes, all they are interested in promoting is their bottom line. They obviously feel that pandering to this community will translate into more $$$$$$ spent in their stores. They are making NO money on the sales of these items according to the snippet you pasted here. If they see that this is not boosting sales or worse, hurting sales, they will drop the line. Target would sell Chassidishe clothing and chulent on Thursday night if they felt it would benefit their bottom line.July 5, 2012 1:29 am at 1:29 am #884659
Is that chulent or cholent?July 5, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #884660
Health: You didn’t answer my point. I think that the Chiluk between supporting the “pride” lifestyle and the actual Ma’aseh Aveirah is obvious. Your money might support individuals and a lifestyle, but I highly doubt that your money in any way, shape, or form is used to promote or help a Ma’aseh Aveirah. Hence, no Lifnei Iver or Mesayeah is Shayach here.July 5, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #884661
Yichusdic,drei nit ken kup, as I said! Firstly about the chilul Shabbos. The Goyim are not obligated to keep Shabbos! If someone would encourage Shabbos desecration among the Jews, we would certainly boycott them, as is the case with the Reform etc.!Fortune tellers? The Goyim are not metzhuve on that according to the Rambam! The Catholic Church is muttar for a Goy according to the Ramo!Yidden do not usually hit or curse using the Shem their parents!Only a zaken mamre is chayav misa for disobeying the Sanhedrin!We do confront the Jew for j.! Mishkav zochur is one of the most chomur de’Oraysos, for crying out loud!! And we do not have control oner indivudual crooks! And we do not believe in the ”sanctity” of the Bill of Rights! What in the world are you talking about?!?July 5, 2012 3:59 am at 3:59 am #884662
Apushoteyid, who cares why they do it?!??July 5, 2012 4:49 am at 4:49 am #884663
I fully agree with Sam2 and the Beer Heitiv is talking about a situation where the money would be used for avoda zara not to promote avoda zara. i am assuming that no one here pays taxes because taxes go to the government which in turn gives that money to planned parenthood which supports abortions. You have a right to choose where you buy from but saying there are issurim involved is just plain silly.July 5, 2012 8:29 am at 8:29 am #884664
Sam2 -“Health: You didn’t answer my point. I think that the Chiluk between supporting the “pride” lifestyle and the actual Ma’aseh Aveirah is obvious. Your money might support individuals and a lifestyle, but I highly doubt that your money in any way, shape, or form is used to promote or help a Ma’aseh Aveirah. Hence, no Lifnei Iver or Mesayeah is Shayach here.”
That’s right -I didn’t. Perhaps you should re-read my post to Yitay. That wasn’t the Mitzva I was talking about. The one I was talking about – uses the money that you give to be Oiver it.July 5, 2012 8:32 am at 8:32 am #884665
jbaldy22 -“You have a right to choose where you buy from but saying there are issurim involved is just plain silly.”
You actually have to read the posts carefully before commenting -otherwise this makes you look silly.July 5, 2012 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #884666
Health: I read your post. That’s not what the Issur Mesay’ea is. There’s no Issur to buy from an Avaryan. The money has to in some way help them do an actual Ma’aseh Aveirah. That’s not happening in this case. There’s no way there’s any Issur.July 5, 2012 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #884667
Way to miss the point, MDD. I’m talking about motivation and comparative relevance and outrage. You are bringing rayos from the Ramo to contradict my assertion of what is A’Z. apples and oranges. No addressing of my central point, either. Ah, well…July 5, 2012 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #884668
@health why don’t you respond to things as opposed to just denigrating them – you misread the gemara. my rosh yeshiva gave a speech a year ago explaining why we are against toeiva marriage and abortions as public policy and that was not the reason he gave. what are you are saying is simply not true. you didnt respond to my other comment either. if we werent allowed to buy from anyone who supported things we sont beleive in (ie. things which go against the sheva mitzvos) you would not be able to do buisness with many large corporations or the US government. again Sam2 is right and any posek will tell you that.July 5, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #884669
The US Government also promotes this lifestyle. Feel free to take your business elsewhere. OR realize that we are in galus and be happy to be able to live your life without threatening boycotts.July 5, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #884670
Sam2 -“The money has to in some way help them do an actual Ma’aseh Aveirah. That’s not happening in this case. There’s no way there’s any Issur.”
And – jbaldy22
I don’t like repeating myself over & over, but I’ll say it One more time!
The OP posted – “helping support the “toaviah” community through the donation of 100 percent of the purchase price to the Family Equality Council”
You buy this product and they give the money to this group.
The Rambam Shoftim -Hilchos Melachim 14 says – “And How are they Mechuyav on Judges? They have to establish a Justice system where they judge up in every town on the other 6 Mitzvos.”
So how would this apply in the USA? The Goyim have to create such a system within our existing system. So how is something illegal here? Our politicians vote and then it is signed by the executive officer.
So I reiterate, your money that goes to this org. is used to oppose any politician who would make Toieva illegal and is used to support any politician who will vote for any of their so-called “civil rights”.
By buying these products -“Pride” – (hopefully they are clearly labeled as such -so other products in Target are Muttar;)
you are directly being Meesiyah Leiday Aveira!
I hope this time I was clear enough or should I put it in BLOCK Letters?July 5, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #884671
Yichusdic, the outraged ones are driven by the Torah, not by the political or social motivations. What in the world are talking about?July 5, 2012 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #884672
Health: By buying these products -“Pride” – (hopefully they are clearly labeled as such -so other products in Target are Muttar;)
you are directly being Meesiyah Leiday Aveira!
Toeiva isn’t illegal in the US. Giving money to these groups can only possibly change some marriage laws, not laws about personal preference. Whether you give these groups money or not, no one can stop the Ta’avtanim from committing their aveiros.
I personally, prefer not patronizing stores that support the advancement of Toeiva ideology. A Hashkafic decision, but not Halachic.July 5, 2012 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #884673
Health: I understand your point now. And I’ll have to think about it.July 5, 2012 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #884674
To those that are claiming that the aveira of Toeiva is similar to other aveiros with the same label: If you go through the Vayikra 18, basically the Parsha of erva, it ends off 18:26 that all the previous mentioned aveiros are “toeiva”. Though, it is interesting to mention that there is only one aveira in that parsha that also has the word “toeiva” specified in its own posuk-you got it, Toevia!
Now if you’d look in that Parsha you would see such chomur aveiros, such as incest, and bestiality, and none of these aveiros were considered (by God) as disgusting as Toeiva. That is the reason I believe that until today, people are more zealos against Toevia than other aveiros labeled as such.July 5, 2012 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #884675
Mdd: He said his own point wrong. His point is that if the only source of people’s outrage was the Torah, they would be this outraged against more things that the Torah is against. He’s saying that there’s some other catalyst to the outrage, in addition to seeing something the Torah views as deplorable.July 5, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #884676
MDD: Someone claimed they are promoting a certain lifestyle. I responded that they are not promoting said lifestyle, just their bottom line.
One need not purchase this specific line of clothing and not a single penny will be sent to the named cause.
If it bothers you that this corporation decided to earn a few brownie points and hopefully a few dollars by pandering to this group, dont patronize them.July 5, 2012 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #884677
@health the op was talking about boycotting target in general as opposed to buying those specific products – i have no problem saying not to buy those specific products – the crazy part is boycotting the whole company of which there is no chiyuv what so everJuly 5, 2012 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #884678
How come nobody wants to boycott and leave the State of NY
By Living in the State of NY you are helping promote the agenda and its Likely the next Mayor of NYC will be one (Christine Quinn) . Will she be invited to Borough Park and Williamsburgh
I am sure she will be very welcome in those communities as long as she can give out lots of goodies to those communitiesJuly 6, 2012 1:10 am at 1:10 am #884679
jbaldy22 -“@Health the op was talking about boycotting target in general as opposed to buying those specific products – i have no problem saying not to buy those specific products – the crazy part is boycotting the whole company of which there is no chiyuv what so ever”
Where in my posts did I say that I agree with him that it’s Ossur
to shop there?
I said I don’t like the store. I never said you have to boycott it – as long as those “Pride” products are clearly marked.
Don’t put words in my mouth.July 6, 2012 1:19 am at 1:19 am #884680
uneeq -“Toeiva isn’t illegal in the US.”
Really? And here I thought the good ole US of A was in compliance with the 7 Mitzvos.
“Giving money to these groups can only possibly change some marriage laws, not laws about personal preference. Whether you give these groups money or not, no one can stop the Ta’avtanim from committing their aveiros.”
Really? So I guess we can’t outlaw killing s/o in someone’s private home.
Since when can’t something be illegal, even if we can’t always catch them?
“I personally, prefer not patronizing stores that support the advancement of Toeiva ideology. A Hashkafic decision, but not Halachic.”
It’s Halacha – if your money goes directly to them.July 6, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #884681
I give up. It is clear that however justified the concentration on Toeivah ( as commonly applied here) issues might be, many people here and in our communities are happy to live in blissful ignorance of or denial of so many more pertinent and pressing problems to our communities, problems that the Torah expects us to address, but we have conditioned ourselves to say “what can I do? Its behind closed doors” or “Its not like we praise them or anything.” We do business with them. We buy their products or services. We invest our savings with them. We give them aliyos in our shuls. We take their donations for our mosdos even if the funds were ill gotten.
Maybe when the Torah describes such things as Toeivah, it isn’t even talking about their transgressions. Maybe it is talking about the way our communities deal with them. Maybe that is the real abomination.July 6, 2012 5:40 am at 5:40 am #884682
I dont like that America is becoming pro gay…i think im gonna stop paying taxesJuly 6, 2012 6:03 am at 6:03 am #884683
far east -“I dont like that America is becoming pro gay…i think im gonna stop paying taxes”
You’re probably being sarcastic, but there are many Halachic reasons you might not have to. Ask your LOR -I don’t give Psokim.
One -it says in SA if they treat Jews differently than Goyim you don’t have to. And IMO they do, but this point I’m not going to discuss now.
My other point is that there is a Shitta out there -that noone is required to pay income tax. The guy has written books and never has paid any tax. He spent a little time in jail -so this might be a good enough reason not to, but as far as Halacha -since this is a valid Shitta amongst Goyim -the Gov. either has to change the law or prove that they are right. I dunno -maybe a VAT tax could be legal or they have to prove in the Supreme Court that this guy is wrong -so far they haven’t. Right now the Halacha wouldn’t require it because Hamotzey M’chaveiro Olav Harayoh.July 6, 2012 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #884684
i was being sarcastic. But i guess you really dont believe in taxes lolJuly 8, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #884685
far east -“i was being sarcastic. But i guess you really dont believe in taxes lol”
I already said you were. But some of us are actually Torah Jews before we are Americana Goyim. LOL!July 8, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #884686
ouch…i dont think believing in taxes makes me an american goy before a torah jew. Just trying to follow the halachas of dinah dmalchusah dinahJuly 9, 2012 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #884687
far east -“Just trying to follow the halachas of dinah dmalchusah dinah”
You missed my whole point. I have nothing against any Jew who wants to pay taxes. I personally have paid taxes, but I’ve found many posters here who constantly berate those that don’t and don’t believe there is any other Halachic way.
So I posted 2 Halachic reasons and one of them questions if indeed this is the Din of the Malchus (federal law) to pay taxes.July 12, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #884688
The OP has based his anger against Target based on falsehood. I personally have not jumped on his bandwagon except to say -I dislike in general the store and it’s Ossur to buy the Toeiva products called “Pride”. I have nothing to be Chozer on. But the OP has drawn conclusions on falsehoods and I’m posting this article from Aol news to show the Truth:
“Frank Ocean’s album may currently be the most buzzed about disc in music, but Target isn’t interested. Billboard reports the discount retail giant announced it will not sell Channel Orange, claiming the decision was a reaction to iTunes’ one-week exclusive. Many are wondering, however, if the move was actually inspired by the fact that Ocean recently came out.
Ocean’s first studio album hit iTunes after the R&B singer’s surprise appearance on Tuesday’s “Late Night With Jimmy Fallon,” a full week before previously planned. Of course, this meant that brick and mortar retailers would lose out on that first week’s sales.
The brand has a complicated history with the LGBT community. Target first faced a strong backlash after donating $150,000 to MN Forward, a group that was backing Tom Emmer’s gubernatorial bid in Minnesota. Emmer was known for being especially conservative and not supporting equal rights for LGBT citizens. At the time, Target Corp.’s CEO Gregg Steinhafel said the company was merely championing a candidate who would be an advocate for its business interests. He later apologized.
Though the brand recently printed a run of shirts in celebration of Gay Pride Week, critics took issue with the fact that the shirts were only available online (not in stores). That fact struck some as a half-hearted attempt at erasing past offenses, but it should be noted that the company donated a portion of proceeds from the shirts to the Family Equality Council, an LGBT advocacy group.”
So we see that they are really against Toeiva and they did the shirt business to appease the criticism. They should be applauded for standing up against Toeiva, not criticized about their “Pride” shirts.
Btw, I still don’t like their store.July 12, 2012 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #884689
Since motivations dont matter, when will MDD et el make the trip to Target to support their decision not to carry Frank Oceans (he came out of the closet last week) new album or to give them a thumbs up for their 2010 donation to Minnesota Foward (a donation that prompted a boycott from moveon.org)?
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