December 22, 2014 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #614528
So I have this kid that I know who is not sure if he will be shomer negiah. (I know this is not a choice, and it’s strict Halacha but to him it’s not). I also know that once he gets older it’s going to cause problems and it’s going to be much harder for him to take it upon himself. Now he is surrounded by people that are going to touch girls, and I want to teach him the importance of it. Anyone know a book that is kid-friendly? Or anyone know how to teach this in a way that is not too open?December 22, 2014 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1049949popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Why not too open? Gonna pretend you’re talkign about something else?December 22, 2014 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1049950MDGParticipant
“Now he is surrounded by people that are going to touch girls, and I want to teach him the importance of it.”
You are trying to reason with hormones. It ain’t gonna work.
I think you’ll have better results if you change his environment, which may get him better friends. Get rid of pop culture influences. Give him something constructive to do, that he likes, to keep him very busy.December 22, 2014 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1049951kj chusidParticipant
I actually agree with MDG on this oneDecember 22, 2014 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1049952
How old is he?December 22, 2014 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1049953VogueMember
get him involved in a youth group like pirchei, camp nageela, chill zone (oorah). Maybe try to encourage him to do chessed once a week in a nursing home (like on sundays).December 22, 2014 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1049954Trust 789Member
brotherofurs: From your posts, I believe you are female and young? If that is true, unless this boy is your brother, you should steer clear. It is no mitzvah for you to teach him about this inyan at all.December 22, 2014 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1049955
“Now he is surrounded by people that are going to touch girls, and I want to teach him the importance of it.”
This is very poorly worded sentence, even IN context.December 22, 2014 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1049956
He is obviously surrounded with the wrong people.December 23, 2014 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1049957showjoeParticipant
i think the answer of mdg, among others is not applicable here.
from what i understand, brotherofurs can not change this kids lifestyle by dictating who he should hang out with or change what society he is part of. yet brotherofurs want to teach this kid that even though others are not shomer, he should be. the question is how to teach him.December 23, 2014 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1049958zahavasdadParticipant
Details arent given here, but if we are talking about a teenage boy hanging with teenage girls all I can say is good luck with thatDecember 23, 2014 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1049959simcha613Participant
Speaking of shomer negiah, I was under the impression that it is an issur d’orays (lo sikrevu legalos ervah). If so, how come Yaakov Avinu kissed Rochel Imeinu before they married? It is clearly derech chibah. I know that they didn’t necessarily keep the Torah outside of EY, but usually there was a reason.December 23, 2014 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1049960birdsonParticipant
I have absolutely no source for this, but one might distinguish between kissing and derech chibah in the times of Tanach (Lavan did the same thing to Yaakov…, as did Yitzchak to Yaakov). If true, this might have interesting applications for handshakes…December 23, 2014 2:18 am at 2:18 am #1049961☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Unquestionably, it was not derech chibah in the same sense it would be for any of us.December 23, 2014 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1049962
The two Pshatim Peshutim are that she was either a Penuyah Tehorah or that it was not Derech Chibah. The tiny problem with the second Pshat is that the Rambam seems to imply that Nishuk is categorically Derech Chibah, but it could still be that that wouldn’t apply to Yaakov (or one could be Mechalek between a kiss on the cheek and other kisses, e.g.).December 23, 2014 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1049963
Showjoe thanks for understanding 🙂 and yes, it is not in my power to change his circumstances, and he’s going to be bar mitzvah soon. so I was just wondering if anyone dealt with this type of thing before, but I guess not.December 23, 2014 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1049964catch yourselfParticipant
The Ramban explains Yaakov’s kissing Rachel with these words:
???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???”? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????
The first peshat could be interpreted as referring to the fact that she was ????? ?????, but I think it is more likely that both peshatim are getting at the idea that it was not ??? ????.
Either way, it is dangerous to draw inferences for practical halacha from the narratives in Tanach. As with everything else, if you have a legitimate query about shaking hands with people of the opposite gender, ask your Rav.December 23, 2014 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1049965zahavasdadParticipant
While this might be unpopular , sometimes in life you have to pick your battles and unless you are this boys mother (and even then) , If you attempt to teach certain things , it might backfire and it might backfire badly.
I know your intentions are good, but sometimes its best to stay out of it unless you are certain not only if the boy will listen but that it wont backfireDecember 23, 2014 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1049966
brother: It’s very difficult to give general advice, but just try to impress upon him the gravity of doing inappropriate things. Depending on circumstances, asking that things like high-fives and taps on shoulders and such be avoided is impossible (even though by teenagers any contact is almost certainly Derech Chibah, except under rare circumstances). But if you can get through to him that being inappropriate with girls is a huge no-no, he’s much more likely to come out of this okay.December 23, 2014 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1049967Chochom-ibberParticipant
Find stories of Gedolim that will impress upon him the severity of the issue at hand. Inadvertently and subconsciously have him realise that we are of the higher “club” with proper moral standards together with these Gedolim.
On SEED I was put in the common awkward situation of having a woman’s hand outstretched to welcome me with a normal social handshake. Politely and cautiously I told her that the only woman’s hand I shake is my wife’s. A bit taken aback she asked why. I bluntly told her that many poor-taste relationships have started by a public casual handshake, with a little extra squeeze or smile or wink that led to other future contact. An undeniable truth in today’s society. She immediately turned to her husband and said that is the most beautiful thing I’ve heard, why don’t you do that too?
Obviously each situation must be judged with saichel. Sometimes one must turn to the maikilim in such matters. However the point here is that as far fetch and extreme as shomer negia might sound NO ONE will argue that that is how immoral relationships begin.December 23, 2014 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1049968MDGParticipant
” Anyone know a book that is kid-friendly? Or anyone know how to teach this in a way that is not too open?”
“from what i understand, brotherofurs can not change this kids lifestyle by dictating who he should hang out with or change what society he is part of. yet brotherofurs want to teach this kid that even though others are not shomer, he should be. the question is how to teach him.”
Ongoing peer pressure and raging hormones versus some book (if it even exists) and a lecture. No contest. Try as you should, but don’t get frustrated or angry, not at yourself nor at him. You may plant seeds that will take hold eventually, but be patient and polite.
The best you can do is daven to Hashem to guide him away from bad influences. That is what Bruriah told her husband, Rebbi Meir, to do (B’rachot 10a).December 24, 2014 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1049970ED IT ORParticipant
If he is at a stage where he will need encouragement and help with these very regular yetzer hora’s you had better start treating him like an adult, no calling him kid etc… otherwise everything you say will be taken personally and condescendingly. Love and attention will do more than mussar and rants..
and dont forget to daven..December 24, 2014 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1049971
“and yes, it is not in my power to change his circumstances,”
So it is not your kid. My misunderstanding of the original post.
“and he’s going to be bar mitzvah soon”
Besides school, does this almost 13 year old hang out on nights and weekends? This is clearly, IMO, coming from the school that he is in. Perhaps speak to someone in the school. If they could care less, the kid is in the wrong school, if as you say you are powerless to change that situation, then dont get involved. Those who can change his situation obviously dont care to (and may not be careful about this either) so dont try to fight them, it will only make things worse. Just continue to be the positive influence that you can be be, and daven for siyata dishmaya.December 26, 2014 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1049972sayswhoParticipant
Coming directly from a 16 yr old guy: understand the difference between not touching girls and not talking to girls. Where I live, there are lots of girls and guys who hang out and are shomer. Then again I suppose there are an equal amount of those who are not. Me personally, my best friend is a girl and we’re super close and we’re both shomer. So make of that what you willDecember 26, 2014 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1049973TTDWRMember
There is a book about being shomer negia by Gila Manolson, called “The Magic Touch.” It is written with sensitivity and is not explicit, but is very educational in an extremely logical sense. It explains the practical benefits of being shomer, and the negative outcomes of breaking it.
IMHO it is teenager-friendly, and if this is something that this boy is struggling (or will be) with, then you should not worry about tiptoeing around… From what you said about his environment, I would assume he is not naive and you should be open and honest with him.
There are many, many people who read it and became shomer negia. It definitely helped me when I was younger… I would highly recommend it.
You can read it first yourself and use that as a guide for what to tell him, but I would suggest giving it to him to read himself. It is a very easy read; it’s thin and has no fluff.
Good luck, I would like to hear how it goes!December 28, 2014 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1049974
Thank you so much everyone! Yes, you’re definitely right that I need to keep davening and being the best influence I can be… so what I did was I read through Gila Manolson’s book for the second time(which I thought would be good except that it gears towards older teens in my opinion) and I picked out important points that he would be able to understand and read him some stories and he looked like he was really taking what I was saying seriously B”H!! Of course I don’t really know if he’ll take everything into account, especially with his peer pressure, but as least now he knows what the right thing to do is and why it’s right…and maybe one day when he wants to grow more, he’ll take it upon himself completely and he’ll respect people who do it B”H!December 28, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1049975ttkkMember
Unfortunately I have a friend who went down this path and it’s a dangerous path to walk on .But, that doesn’t mean that one can’t come back from it. My advice to you is daven. Daven for the answers you need, daven for your boy. God NEVER turns away from those who seek Him.
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