Tearing Families Apart

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  • #1543804

    laskern
    Participant

    Being an immigrant, my heart goes out for what is happening in our borders from Latin America. America is known from its humanity and this behavor is inhumane.

    #1543881

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    the only thing that’s inhumane is having those people come in illegally, and do terrible harm to the locals (rape, murder, etc.)
    a guest CANNOT take over the host’s home – PERIOD !!!

    immigration is a two way street – both sides have to abide by the rules

    #1543883

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Being an immigrant

    There’s a difference between immigrating in accordance with the law, and sneaking across the border illegally.

    #1543901

    laskern
    Participant

    Where is your rachmonus? These people are persecuted and forced to flee. Who knows how long it would take to come here legallly.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1543903

    laskern
    Participant

    I left Hungary in the1956 revolution. We snuck through the border as a child to Austria avoiding search lights. I can’t imagine how my parents would have felt if we were separated. We spent two and half years in a displacement camp. Let Trump do the same thing keeping families together in a displacement camp waiting to be evaluated to come here.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1543912

    akuperma
    Participant

    The parents are free to take their children and either enter the United States legally at a border crossing (if their papers are in order), or return home. No one is making them cross in the middle of a wilderness, knowing it is illegal. None of them are fleeing anything so horrible that they would qualify for asylum.

    Trump has asked permission to keep the parents and children together while they are being held pending a decision on deporting them, but Congress needs to pass a statute to allow it.

    #1543913

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Thank you, laskern, for showing the real Torah midah shwoing we’re rachamim bnei rachamim.

    Yes, we need border laws, but if you have been paying attention to the President’s tweets and announcements over the last few months, he ordered this policy because he hoped it would discourage people by separating them from their children, and because it would force Congress to pass an immigration law that he would only sign if it funded his wall. It’s deliberate cruelty in the service of a political aim. He wants his border wall and will do anything to get it.

    The world is looking at us with disgust, because harming children is the ultimate taboo. We will no longer be able to complain about human rights violations elsewhere, or be believed if we do. And if you’re paying attention, that means that the US, the greatest defender of Israel against the BDS people, is fast losing its ability to hold them off. It isn’t just crying toddlers who are at stake, it’s also Ariel and Ma’alei Adumim.

    BTW RBS: immigrants actually commit fewer crimes than those born here. Most of them work, and have payroll taxes deducted from their pay, so they actually contribute. Their children, American and foreign-born, go to school, learn English, and work at becoming proper Americans. And there are plenty of industries in the agricultural and fishing sectors who are having trouble finding workers, since Americans won’t take the physically difficult jobs they used to do. Don’t believe everything you hear on talk radio/television. Try reading a newspaper.

    #1543911

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    i’m sorry, but no rachmanus, even for 1000’s of people, can equal the loss of EVEN ONE INNOCENT LIFE !
    what you did in 1956 was much different. you were not b’chezkas rapists, murderers, drug dealers, etc – that are killing so many innocent americans, germans, french, and other people of the world

    #1543933

    dbrim
    Participant

    Kol hamiracheim al achzarim…introducing the US’s new immigration policy – jeopardize your kids by smuggling them across the border – they get free housing, food, medical treatment, and education, compliments of American citizens including legal immigrants, and then wait for hypocritical lying liberals to scream “reconciliation” – presto, you’re in. Or how about open borders – come one, come all – it’s not as though we have our own criminals or poor and needy citizens to help. And while we’re at it – shouldn’t we reconcile the families of incarcerated indiviuals? Let’s do away with the penal system – no borders, no laws – freedom for all. Endorced by liberal media news outlets everywhere.

    #1544016

    dbrim
    Participant

    Clearly you haven’t been paying attention because this policy pre-dates the Obama administration, but the media woke up now because they have a political agenda, which includes blame Trump for everything. I don’t know what world you live in but unforunately harming children is no longer taboo – Hamas human shields, British migrant grooming gangs of pre-teen girls, etc. These children are being harmed by their families who exploit them for US citizenship. All the other drivel about immigrants from 3rd world countries being exemplary citizens is a nice but false narrative.

    #1544020

    The little I know
    Participant

    It’s a true bizayon that no one here has heard the statement drom DHS on exactly which families are being separated. No, it is not being used as a measure to make immigration tough on Latinos. It’s not separating the children, taking them away from their parents, as pawns in the immigration battle. It is the parents who are problematic, with criminal records, etc. who would be detained anyway. Do you know anyone who was incarcerated in US who was able to bring their children along to prison? The kids are innocents who deserve to be fed. No, the media pictures of cages are not the places where kids are being held. They are the makeshift processing centers. The kids are placed in a facility that is more similar to a vacation resort, getting better care than they ever had in their lives. It is pure propaganda to spread the false pictures that are circulating the media, and has infiltrated the pages of the CR.

    First examine the facts, then comment about whether there is congruence with Torah value.

    #1544045

    laskern
    Participant

    As you have heard even Pres Trump realizes that this behavior is inhumane and will sign an executive order to stop this.

    #1544058

    laskern
    Participant

    The president would not sign an executive order if he would not see something wrong in tearing families apart by separating parents from children.

    Edited

    #1544102

    dbrim
    Participant

    Noone is arguing that the current law is humane – of course children shouldn’t be separated from their parents and hopefully policy change is imminent – it’s the blame game and disingenuous conflation and politicizing of children by the left that is being comdemmed.

    #1544116

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    This nation was founded by illegal immigrants who did terrible things to the locals.

    #1544152

    NOYB
    Participant

    The whole thing is sad and ridiculous.
    1. It is a law that they HAVE to be separated, since the 90s. Why?
    2. If the family comes to a border checkpoint and claims asylum, they stay together. If they try to break in and get caught, they claim asylum and are then separated. While we shouldn’t be doing it, it is also their fault.
    3. Most of the lone children here were sent alone by their parents or are human trafficking victims (10,000 out of 12,000 according to Homeland Security Sec Nielsen)
    Schumer said the Dems will reject a bill to fix this “to keep the focus on Trump”. THEY ARE HURTING KIDS TO MAKE TRUMP LOOK BAD!!!

    #1544147

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    No, Midwest, I’m sorry (and I’m also a Midwestern, shpitz rachmonus), but they are *not* as clean as you make them out to be.
    The young girl from Germany last week can prove it all. Was it worth her precious life?
    How about all the drugs that our southern neighbors bring in? And the murders and rapes they commit?
    Is it worth all those innocent lives, when applying rachmonus to those who take advantage, and bite the hand that feeds them?

    #1544254

    Midwest2
    Participant

    To be clear – re such lefty outlets as Reuters:

    1. The law has been in force for a long time and it leaves a lot up to the judgment of the current president. It does not require children to be separated from their parents.

    2. Until recently people caught trying to enter illegally were charged with a misdemeanor and released to come back to court.

    3. Trump decided that instead of a misdemeanor they should be charged with a felony, which requires arrest, and jail until the court hearing. Since children can’t be jailed, they must be separated and held elsewhere.

    4. Trump stated that he was doing this to force the hand of Congress, so that they would pass immigration legislation that would also fund his border wall.

    5. It was made clear that the crime these people committed was trying to enter the US illegally, not anything else like murder, rape, etc.

    And for those people who don’t think about what they just heard on the radio – the murderer of the German girl was from the Middle East. The Latin Americans trying to cross our border are usually Roman Catholic, not Muslim, and most are fleeing violence in their home countries with their families.

    According to Reuters just now, Mr. Trump has said he will change his policy back because, among others, his wife and daughter are objecting. Good for Melania and Ivanka!

    #1544341

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    Midwest, you’re saying that only Muslims kill, and not RCs?
    I’m sorry, too many lost lives from illegal immigrants from our southern neighbor, and they are RCs.
    Please keep in mind, that if someone from those countries operates a successful business, they won’t be moving to America. Only the ones with problems seek a new life, and “they’re bringing their problems with them (us) “, and, “they’re not sending us their best. ”

    #1544387

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Midwest2:
    immigrants actually commit fewer crimes than those born here. Most of them work, and have payroll taxes deducted from their pay, so they actually contribute.
    ———————————
    Most of those illegals who have payroll taxes deducted from thier salary are using fake or someone elses id. You know it and so dors everyone else.

    #1544587

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Tango – nevertheless the money is going into the US Treasury. Even if the ID is fake, we’ve still got the cash.

    Please note that the industries with the greatest illegal problems are things like meat-packing, where the work is hard, dirty and dangerous, and the employers don’t want to pay the going wage to get American citizens, so they “have” to resort to immigrants.

    Ask the farmers whose crops rot in the fields because they can’t get enough red-blooded US citizen workers to pick them.

    #1544614

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Rebyidd,

    So the want illegals to overrun the country and make a new one?

    #1544854

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    They don’t want to, but they have just as much right to.

    #1544958

    Joseph
    Participant

    How is separating a person who broke the law and was arrested for illegally breaking into the border from his children when he’s jailed for his crime any different than separating a person who broke the law and was arrested for illegally breaking into Walmart from his children when he’s jailed? Or any different than separating a person who broke the law and was arrested for drunken driving from his children when he’s jailed.

    #1544978

    frumtd
    Participant

    Joseph – Are you advocating that when parents are arrested for the various crimes you listed (never-mind any consideration as to equivalence) their children should also be locked up separately from them. Or perhaps as a US Citizen you have the luxury that if your commit a crime, (1) if you are not a threat you will get sent home pretty quickly once posting bail and (2) your children can remain home with the other spouse or family members. Your attempts to conflate an immigration violation (which often can be due to trying to escape violence or lack of ability to find work) with the type of crimes that US Citizens typically get arrested and convicted for is just stupid.

    #1544977

    frumtd
    Participant

    1. You say that to risk one 1 life we can’t help or save 1,000. Interesting equivalence.
    2. You call these people horrible things. Do you have any statistics for what percent of people who are apparently traveling with their children across the border actually commit the crimes you allege, or are you just repeating fake news.

    #1544989

    dbrim
    Participant

    There are ports of entry at the borders for those who need asylum to seek it legally. The vast majority of children entering the counrty are with adults unrelated to them – in other words, child trafficking. And because it is often impossible to verify whether the adult with a child is the child’s relative or guardian, separation was an attempt (a poor one) to protect the child from abuse by these non-relative adults. Kol HaKavod to President Trump – he diffused a untenable situation – now Congress needs to get to work and modify immigration laws to protect American citizens and illegal alien chidren.

    #1544986

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Because the children in this case are also jailed.

    #1545004

    Joseph
    Participant

    frumtd & RY23: I never advocated locking up the children in jail. But if the parent commits a crime, whether the crime is breaking into the border, drunken driving or breaking into a store, he’s jailed without his children. Especially if he’s a flight risk or risk he’ll never show up for trial, as experience shows is the case for the vast majority of illegal aliens who are released into the public conditioned on them voluntarily returning for trial or deportation. They usually never come back to the authorities and disappear into illegal alien underground communities throughout the US. So it is both sensical and correct to hold these illegal aliens until trial and/or deportation.

    The fact they brought their children with them on their illegal actions is no one’s fault but their own. No different than parents who commit other crimes and are jailed without their children.

    When parents are jailed and their children have no parents, the authorities place their children in a foster home or with relatives. Same as what’s happening to the illegal alien children. No different than anything else.

    #1545068

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DovidBT,

    “There’s a difference between immigrating in accordance with the law, and sneaking across the border illegally.”

    A lot of these families are coming to the border seeking asylum, surrendering themselves to border authorities immediately. This activity is not illegal.

    #1545069

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    akuperma,

    “The parents are free to take their children and either enter the United States legally at a border crossing (if their papers are in order), or return home.”

    A lot of these families are seeking asylum, and they actually seek out the authorities upon crossing the border.

    “None of them are fleeing anything so horrible that they would qualify for asylum.”

    Do you know anything about the situation in El Salvador and Honduras?

    “Trump has asked permission to keep the parents and children together while they are being held pending a decision on deporting them, but Congress needs to pass a statute to allow it.”

    Untrue, as proven by the recent executive order.

    #1545121

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram: Asylum laws in the US only cover government persecution and not leaving a crime-ridden country or seeking a better economic environment. I don’t think the governments in El Salvador and Honduras are persecuting citizens.

    #1545197

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, those legally claiming asylum at an official border crossing are unaffected by the recent policy changes. And are not subject to this new zero tolerance prosecution resulting in parents being separated from children.

    #1545317

    Midwest2
    Participant

    The situation in El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, etc. is very bad right now, economically and in terms of rule of law. In poor areas of the cities gangs rule, not the police, and people who don’t cooperate with them are at risk of their lives. The most effective way for us to stop people showing up at our border is to help those countries get their economies and governments back in order. Not only would it solve the problem at the source, it would be way cheaper than a 20 billion dollar border wall.

    Immigrants overrun the US? Get real. There are at least 320 MILLION Americans. How are they going to “overrun” us? WE ARE NOT VULNERABLE. We are a strong, rich country with very effective law enforcement. and anybody who tells you differently is lying to you to get your vote or your money. Yes, there are parts of the country with economic problems, but we have never stopped being great and this idea that we have somehow been victimized and need to be be great “again” is just a scam. We’re basically in good shape, but – like all countries throughout history – we have a few problems that need to be fixed. Don’t fall for the doom-sayers.

    #1545347

    Joseph
    Participant

    Midwest2, they said that about Rome too.

    #1545364

    dbrim
    Participant

    Have you never been to a black inner city neighborhood? Or the trailer parks, home to poor middle-America whites? As American citizens, these communities should be a priority over Hondurans – in some fantasy world we have unlimited resources but not in reality. And if law enforcement is so “effective” why are there millions of illegal aliens crossing our borders annually? And how come your concern with gang rule doesn’t extend to MS-13? The deception, delusion and hypocracy of the left would be laughable if there wasn’t so much at stake.

    #1545662

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the website of the National Agudath Israel about their statement for the moral obligation not to separate children from the parents and to reunite them.

    #1545673

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the illegal aliens and their children are immediately deported together to their country of citizenship, they won’t be separated.

    #1545946

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “those legally claiming asylum at an official border crossing are unaffected by the recent policy changes. And are not subject to this new zero tolerance prosecution resulting in parents being separated from children.”

    I wish your saying it made it so, but it is not so.

    #1545947

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    dbrim,

    “Have you never been to a black inner city neighborhood? Or the trailer parks, home to poor middle-America whites? As American citizens, these communities should be a priority over Hondurans – in some fantasy world we have unlimited resources but not in reality.”

    False dilemma. Who says that comprehensive immigration reform has to impact support for poor urban and rural American communities? And what are opponents of immigration reform proposing to do to help these communities?

    “And how come your concern with gang rule doesn’t extend to MS-13?”

    MS-13 is a huge problem, and part of the reason the gang has managed to get such a strong foothold in the United States is a lack of cooperation between law enforcement and the immigrant communities. MS-13 victimizes immigrants worst of all, and they fear going to the police because a call to them to report that they are being extorted or threatened by MS-13 gang members might get them arrested and deported.

    #1545969

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    You wrote: “False dilemma. Who says that comprehensive immigration reform has to impact support for poor urban and rural American communities? And what are opponents of immigration reform proposing to do to help these communities?”

    Wrong. You missed the point. There are several problems that we have due to the open borders. One is the MS-13 and other criminals who not only enter leisurely, but are able to get every version of support. The second is the sheer cost of managing all the immigrant issues. When the limited amount of money is diverted and prioritized to deal with them, we become unable to utilize resources to cope with our own citizens who are homeless, in poverty, and living in the inner city, etc. Until be turn into a surplus budget, we should take care of our own before the others.

    You are others have forgotten that there are legal means to enter the US. Who told them (besides the Democrats who are anti-American) to smuggle into the country? If they want to do things illegally, they lack the right to demand compliance with the law.

    #1546140

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    “Wrong. You missed the point.”

    I’m not sure you understood my point enough to be able to determine if I have “missed” someone else’s point or not. You restated dbrim’s point that I was responding to with increased verbiage but no new content.

    “There are several problems that we have due to the open borders.”

    I agree that there are big problems, but calling them “open” borders is a gross exaggeration.

    “One is the MS-13”

    Any response to my point about MS-13 above?

    “and other criminals who not only enter leisurely, but are able to get every version of support.”

    I believe this statement is rather misleading. Undocumented immigrants are barred from receiving government benefits.

    “The second is the sheer cost of managing all the immigrant issues.”

    Describe some of these costs, and tell me how covering the nearly 2000 mile US/Mexico border with a wall and drastically increasing border patrols wouldn’t also take money from the finite pie that is the Federal budget, or why it’s the poverty fighting benefits that would be cut due to these unknown “immigrant issues” costs.

    “Until be turn into a surplus budget, we should take care of our own before the others.”

    Given the tax cuts Congress passed into law, I don’t think we’ll be seeing a budget surplus any time soon. And any deficit reduction plans put forward by those who want the tax cuts and to stop immigration seek to reduce the funds available for “taking care of our own.” So forgive me if I see this argument as kind of hollow.

    “You are others have forgotten that there are legal means to enter the US.”

    No, for the majority of people there are not. Unless you are being sponsored by an American employer (rare), are a spouse, sibling, parent, or child of a citizen (and immigrating via this method can take 20-25 years!), or are granted asylum (which is the category most of the people involved with the family separation crisis are attempting to utilize), there is pretty much no way for most people to immigrate legally to the United States. Get in line? There is no line.

    “Who told them (besides the Democrats who are anti-American) to smuggle into the country?”

    Just because somebody has a different view of a problem or its solutions than you do, does not make him anti-American.

    “If they want to do things illegally, they lack the right to demand compliance with the law.”

    Say what?

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