- This topic has 57 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
DH wants a divorce. I won’t go into details right now unless necessary but suffice it to say that he is extremely resentful and has been pushed too far. I want to repair the marriage, he doesn’t. He just wants out.
The main thing holding me back from agreeing to the divorce is how serious it is in halacha and it’s so bad that it causes the “Beis HaMikdash to cry”, whatever that means. But that’s pretty serious. I also have this image of Hashem asking me why I gave up, when I die, and showing me why I should have stayed and fixed it.
I’ve been thinking about it and maybe divorce is the only solution. Can anyone help me with the halacha aspect of it? Not looking for therapy or communication advice; I’m trying those. I just want more insight into divorce in halacha, if anyone has it. I will speak to a rabbi as well but want some feedback on here.
Rabbeinu Gershom gave wives the right to decline to divorce for a reason.
I don’t think this is the right forum for advice in such a serious matter. That being said there are many halachos about divorces because sometimes there really is no other option. Good luck in everything you do
Are there children?
“The main thing holding me back from agreeing to the divorce is how serious it is in halacha and it’s so bad that it causes the “Beis HaMikdash to cry”, whatever that means.”
That’s not a halacha. If halacha is what you’re worried about,
you can put that out of your mind.
“But that’s pretty serious. I also have this image of Hashem asking me why I gave up, when I die, and showing me why I should have stayed and fixed it.
I’ve been thinking about it and maybe divorce is the only solution.”
That’s the important question. If divorce is the only thing to do
in your situation, Hashem will not take you to task for it.
“I will speak to a rabbi as well but want some feedback on here.”
If you want to know more about the halachos of getting divorced, such as what rights you have before accepting a divorce, and what rights you have afterward, you should definitely speak to a rabbi.
(A rabbi who is familiar with you and your situation as a couple may also be helpful in deciding whether or not to divorce. A rabbi who doesn’t know you might also possibly be helpful, if he is experienced in these matters.)
1) meseches gittin exists for a reason
2) that’s the only reason? Is that the only reason your want to stay?
3) asking my soon to be ex for a divorce was the bet thing I did
4) talk to a rav and marriage therapist
The idea of the Mizbei’ach shedding tears is about divorcing without her consent. The tears are for the wife.
Hashem should send you Shalom and you should raise a loving family.
EDIT: I hadn’t seen HaLeiVi’s post before writing this, but I will disagree with him until he provides a source for his statement. Note that the Gemara uses the word “alav”, meaning “over him,” not “aleha”, “over her.”
_____________________________________________________________
I hope this post will put at least some of your fear to rest.
First, my translation of the Gemara in question (Gittin 90b):
(The Gemara quotes a verse in Mal’achi, where the relationship between a husband and wife is used as a metaphor for the relationship between the Jewish People and Hashem, then gives two explanations of its meaning:)
Rabi Yehudah says: “If you hate her, send her away (that is, divorce her).”
Rabi Yochanan says: “The one who sends away is hated.”
[[Another version has Rabi Yochanan’s statement as follows:
Rabi Yochanan says: “If she is hateful before the Makom (Hashem),
send her away (that is, divorce her only if she is a sinner).”]]
(The Gemara explains:) They are not in argument – one speaks of a first marriage, the other of a second marriage (that is, divorcing one’s second wife is not considered as serious as divorcing one’s first wife), as Rabi El’azar said: “Anyone who divorces his first wife, even the Mizbeiach (Altar) sheds tears for him, as it says: (he quotes two consecutive verses from the same chapter in Mal’achi).
_____________________________________________________________
It appears that the situation of one who divorces his first wife is a sad one, but this does not necessarily obligate you, as his wife, to attempt to prevent him from doing so.
The section of the Gemara that the above quotation comes from is a discussion of when a man has the right to divorce his wife.
This Gemara was meant to be learned by men, of course, and its message is meant for them. The Gemara does not talk about when a woman should agree to divorce (although there is a discussion of her right to demand it). As Lior mentioned, Rabbenu Gershom gave a woman the right to refuse divorce – but as far as the Gemara is concerned, it’s a man’s decision.
(The following is speculation: Rabbenu Gershom also decreed that a man may not have two wives. Putting the two together, it appears that his concern may have been that a man should not be able to cast his wife aside at will in favor of another woman.
Forcing him to get his wife’s consent before divorcing her, and rendering him unable to marry another woman before divorcing his wife first, is an excellent solution to that issue. It might prove enlightening to read the actual proclamations of the new laws – can anyone link to them on hebrewbooks.org?)
This is not to discourage trying not to get divorced; nowadays, given that you do have the right to refuse divorce, it should certainly be exercised if it can be determined that that is a wise thing to do, for whatever reason. I’m just saying that you may not be too accountable for not saving your husband from himself, should that turn out to be the situation and its outcome – you’re not really meant to have to deal with this in the first place.
Here’s another argument someone made three years ago on this site (copied as is):
tuted:
I find it ironic that one should question divorce because this “mizbach cries”. If divorce is on the table rest assured that both husband and wife, and often the children cry. Given the choice, I’d rather have the mizbayach cry than all these people. Really now are we more concerned about this mizbayach of stone, that of our brother and sister that are crying so.
(Thanks to Popa_bar_abba for possibly giving me the idea for this post – I don’t remember if I had it before seeing his posts {from 3 years ago}.)
It’s worth fighting to preserve the marriage for the sake (and sanity) of your child’s spirituality. Among other reasons.
TakenUsername:
(I am not familiar with very much Gemara – I looked that one up specifically.)
A marriage is not either party’s sole responsibility – if one party is not a part of it, the other party cannot be expected to carry on regardless, though they can if they want to. Likewise, a woman may be a condition for her husband’s spirituality, but it cannot be demanded of her alone. Obviously, excelling in one’s own duties is commendable, but I assume it would be foolish to carry on in certain situations.
I would not advise someone as to whether or not they should demand a divorce – that is beyond me. In your case, however,
the question is more along the lines of “How guilty might I be for consenting to divorce?” In which case, the best course of action should be ascertained through consultation with experts,
and after that, I think you’re in the clear.
Lior:
(What you mean is “your child’s spirituality (and sanity),” right?)
A child who is a toddler at the time of the divorce will not be nearly as affected as an older child would be, and remaining unhappily married is no guarantee of a child’s future. It’s not about “staying together for the kids’ sake,” it’s about “learning to live with each other for the kids’ sake,” and if that’s not possible, you cut your losses and go.
I am very sorry to hear of your suffering. May Hashem help you get out of it and grow from it.
As others posted, try and find a trustworthy, understanding, and preferably an experienced Rabbi to speak to.
About your husband, if he is not honest with himself, then that is something you both will have to work on in therapy. However, he will probably need private therapy to deal with those deep issues, but it is worth a shot to go as a couple. Try to find the best therapist (experienced in marriage counseling) available. There are good rabbis who know of good therapists too.
Hatzlacha Rabba!
This is a very sad thread. I can understand why the mizbeach cries.
TakenUsername – I’m divorced.
“He went to a Dayan a few weeks ago and he was told he can’t get a divorce without trying therapy so he’s reluctantly agreed but only going so he can get it out of the way and get a divorce. I doubt he’ll participate, but it’s worth a shot.”
The Dayan is right!
Listen – only if the therapist tells you to get divorced, you Should! You should also go yourself for therapy.
I don’t think a competent therapist would TELL someone to divorce. They would help
you go through it so you can decide for yourself if divorce is right for you
Ivory, I tried marriage therapy. Long story short after I told her my decision to divorce, she told me I made the right choice. Granted she didn’t tell me to divorce but there are times a therapist does agree it is the right thing.
And what health said-find a therapist for yourself even if you don’t go for marriage therapy.
I agree with you. But I just wanted to point out that a competent therapist would not (or shouldn’t) tell someone to divorce
Honestly, if he doesn’t want to fix things, there’s not much you can do. He can leave a get with the beis din, and get a heter me’ah rabbonim to remarry. If you won’t be happy anyway, why do it to yourself? Hilchos gittin exist for a reason. Sometimes you have to do it. Yes, it says the mizbe’ach cries for a divorce, but do you think Hashem enjoys it when a husband and wife can’t live peacefully together?
Also, enough with the mizbeach’s and my tears. You should avoid divorce for your own tears and your own kids tears and the spouse whom you once loved’s tears.
ivory -“I agree with you. But I just wanted to point out that a competent therapist would not (or shouldn’t) tell someone to divorce”
1. Are you married? 2. Are you divorced? 3. Do you have a degree in Social Work or in Psychology?
I agree with DaMoshe. Chaza”l telling us that the mizbayach cries is to stress to us the importance of working hard to keep intact a marriage which has the potential to work.
However, if it’s not going to be a functional marriage, as sad as it is, a get is necessary.
I’m married. I’m not divorced .bh. I’m not a social worker. But what does it have to do with anything I said?
You should work very hard in keeping the marriage intact AND in making the marriage functional and satisfactory to both of you. You should never give up without putting in your absolute full and best effort to save and repair your marriage.
For yourself, for your husband and for your child. And for Hashem.
My source is the same source of the Gemara. Look at the Pasuk. Alav simply means because of him. It is not enough of a Diyuk to misconstrue a normal Pshat.
The Pasuk is saying that you brought tears to the Mizbei’ach because you hurt your first wife.
yentingyenta – : ,(
TakenU, I’m no Rebbetzin. (Not much of a golfer either.) But I know some of the relevant sources teaching that the women’s influence on her husband’s spiritual growth, and on the general state of the marriage, is substantial. And of course I agree that they’re correct. But there’s still a lot that’s not in her hands. There are circumstances where a divorce is the best Refuah for a marriage that is causing pain to all parties involved.
Just because you’re the woman doesn’t mean you have to beat yourself up over this. The husband and wife are both responsible for making the home a safe haven, and a place of comfort, love and sippuk hanefesh for each other and for their children. I don’t know all the details, but chances are there’s no reason for you to take the whole burden of guilt on yourself.
I felt sorry to hear there’s no Rav you feel you can speak to. It can be dangerous going to the wrong therapist. A Rav can be a great support under the circumstances, and can direct you to a reputable, competent therapist who will help you to see things clearly.
Wishing you the strength to get through this difficult time and to move on to better, happier days.
mod29-thanks
Edit to my previous post “go for therapy” not marriage therapy as I wrote
Lior, your post really bothers me. I am at the end of getting divorced and what you wrote feels so wrong. there are times when a woman has to look at who (or what) she is married to and realize that there is nothing left but to walk away. just my 2cents
I think Lior’s comment is probably correct but was applicable to you in the past. You’re up to the next step or two from there.
Years ago I knew someone who was married for a very short time and nobody could imagine why they got divorced. He said that he went to many different teachers, rabbis and counselors and they all agreed that he should divorce. I remember that I couldn’t possibly imagine a reason this early in the game that would warrant such drastic measures. Years later he told me that she had stopped keeping any mitzvos and told him she had no intention of changing her mind. She said that if he really loved her he would accept her for who she is.
Yentingyenta – you are so right in your final statement. I would hope everyone always gives it their all before giving up but as I learned from my friend, it is not always reparable.
Syag, Thanks for your words. What I went through isn’t post-able but irreparable just the same.
When I was still thinking about what I should do, none of the people I spoke to said “give it your all, then come back to me”. When I spoke to my rav, he said try marriage therapy to see IF there is anything left THEN decide if you will give it your all. What Lior said about giving it everything you have is wrong because if there is nothing left, you are fighting a lost battle. THAT is what bothers me. In my case, yes I left before fighting because there was nothing left. Only a therapist or very competent rav can see if there is something or nothing left to fight for.
SO LIOR, I “gave up” without trying to save the marriage. Because I saw and my support saw and my RAV saw and the THERAPIST saw there was NOTHING left. So yes, I think what you wrote is wrong. If there is nothing left to fix, there is nothing to fix
Syag: thank you.
Yenting: I will not say you took the wrong approach since you don’t want to post the details of your situation, something I fully respect, and there are those very rare situations where it may be obvious that it is both untenable and irreparable.
Nevertheless, in the majority by far of situations a marriage on the brink is repairable with the efforts by both parties. Sometimes it may take a whole lot of effort but it is doable. And it is very worth doing. Especially when there’s children. I’d even go so far as to say that by far most divorces were avoidable. We live, sadly, in a disposable society. Whether paperware, electronics, cars and in recent decades marriages are easily disposed of for the latest model and fads rather than being repaired as had always been the previous norm.
“Nevertheless, in the majority by far of situations a marriage on the brink is repairable with the efforts by both parties.”
BOTH PARTIES. you stated the most important part. If one party sees nothing to fix, or does not want to fix themselves, it will not work. THATS the important part of making a marriage work-BOTH sides have to work to make it last. If one side demands the other to change to the image in their head or to live them the way they are because they won’t change, is that really a marriage that should be fixed?
I thought the same thing when I read those words but couldn’t have said it as well as you.
I agree with Lior, but it could be Y.Y. situation is “both untenable and irreparable”!
Health, my (soon to be) ex believed that if I changed to be the way he wanted (including lowering my religious standards) then our marriage could be fixed, not if HE stopped his behaviors. According to the therapist we tried, he couldn’t see he was doing anything wrong so there is nothing to fix. So yes, my marriage was “untenable and irreparable”.
But I still don’t like what she wrote saying the first time because it sounded like something that my ex would say.
TakenUsername: Is there anything you can do to save the marriage?
yenting: First of all, I am very sorry for your situation. Secondly, ignore Lior on this. He has stated that his opinion is that if a husband (or wife) thinks the marriage is “salvageable”, he should refuse to give a Get so that they should fix the marriage. Quite simply, his opinion on these issues is clearly not relevant.
Sam: Simply said, you are disagreeing with Rabbeinu Gershom. Perhaps you are of equal stature to him. (Rabbeinu Sam Me’or Hagola?) He proclaimed that wives have the right to refuse to accept a divorce even if their husband wants to give her one.
Why did R”G decree as such? Because if the wife feels that the marriage is repairable and salvageable it is her right to insist that the marriage be saved and preserved. Even against her husband’s wishes.
Saving the marriage, in the vast majority of cases, will do more good than the potential damage to all parties by dumping the marriage. How far to push to save the marriage? As far as possible, as mightily as you can.
Of course every situation is different and this is general advice. No one can direct your personal situation through an anonymous medium, especially where all the facts and nuances are unknown to anyone but yourself, other than give general pointers.
Edited – While this may be good information to tell someone who is “on the fence”, for someone who no longer has that opportunity it is only rubbing salt in an open wound.
As far as the gemorah, suffice to say the degree of mental incompetancy that precludes a husband from issuing a Get is very high and something very very few men qualify for reaching. Standard clinical depression does not come close to that level. But if it is clinical depression that is pushing him to desire a divorce, that may be a very good indication that he isn’t making this decision of sane mind. (Though it is sane enough for a Get to be halachicly sufficient.) And he should work on the depression first,after which it is IY”H cured he may realize how foolish it was for him to even want to have divorced!
The yetzer hara is confusing you with guilty religious feelings. Don’t let him. You have to take care of yourself first. I’m going to be blunt: you sound like you are codependent on your husband (which is understandable), but you have to just let him go!
Try to fix the marriage. If it doen’t work, you have every right to divorce and find someone else. Your husband will have to get chizuk from other sources throughout his life and not be dependent on you for it. It is not your responsibility to change him or save his soul. Try it for the time being, but if therapy doesn’t work, then take care of YOU first. I would also suggest going to therapy now to work on becoming more emotionally independent.
If you really want to know halachik advice on how someone who may be a shoteh gives a get, speak to a Rabbi. As for your marriage, Hashem wants you to be happy first and foremost.
I’m sorry you are married to such a dishonest loser.
Be strong!
Talk to Rav and marriage counselor. Even if you think there’s no hope. A Rav can help you get the get if necessary, and visitation rights/ child support.
Shalom: You should not be speaking ill of a Yid you don’t know (or do know, for that matter), especially when you know precious little of the situation. Giving general advice is one thing; calling someone unsubstantiated names is uncalled for.
Lior – Although the post I have deleted is not in violation of any CR rules, I see that your words are “hitting the wrong buttons” of women who are going through some very difficult times, and your subsequent post is much stronger and harsher. You are under no obligation to be sensitive, but I don’t think this is the time or place for that post.
M-29: TY for your feedback. The post was rather substantial. Can you possibly edit out the portion that troubled you, to the minimal degree you find possible, and restore the rest?
I will see if I can. I have a feeling the substance you want in is the very part I will be editing though.
yentingyenta -“But I still don’t like what she wrote saying the first time because it sounded like something that my ex would say.”
I’m Not a mind reader, but I think Lior was posting because s/he had a prob with the OP. Some people don’t have the foggiest idea what a marriage is, let alone a religious one! Your posts sound alot different than hers!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.