Techeiles and Bal Tosif

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  • #1934538
    Rafael (Rafi) Hecht
    Participant

    Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today?

    Sorry, no links allowed

    #1934816
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Why would there be an issue of Ba’al Tosif? Technically, tzitzis (other than the required p’sil techeles) can be any color – there is no requirement for them to be white. As such, even if the current version of techeles is not correct, Ba’al Tosef would not be an issue. I could see that yuhara could be an issue, whether it is correct or not (though more of an issue if it’s not), but even that is questionable.

    As an aside – Rav Yisrael Belsky, Z”L, personally told me that he thought the current techeles from the Machon P’til Techelet is correct. He further told me that the only reason he did not wear it publicly was on account of yuhara – so he only wore it on Shabbos on his Talis Katan, when it would be hidden under his Kapoto.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1934825
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    People wearing techeles is based on the Radziner kabala. See mi yodeya website.

    #1934841
    HolyMoe
    Participant

    If you mean the Murex tcheiles, the question should be if you transgress Bal Tigra if you DON”T wear it.

    #1934870
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    Siman 9, Seif 5:
    There are some who maintain that tzitzis must be the same color as the talis, and those who are particular follow this practice.
    Note: Ashkenazim use white tzitzis even on colored garments, and one should not deviate from this practice.
    Mishna Brura 16: It is appropriate for one to make their tallis koton white, so that they will fulfill the mitzvah according to all opinions.

    #1934876
    Forshayer
    Participant

    There is a 3 hour Shiur that was given today by the Ptil Techelet people in Eretz Yisroel just on this inyan. It was given by the torah anytime people and i’m sure its available for viewing.
    These were the topics that were discussed.
    Rabbi Abraham Twerski – Divrei Bracha
    Video: Why did it take so long to rediscover Tekhelet?
    Dr. Israel Ziderman: Modern Scientific Discoveries Regarding Techeiles
    Rabbi Chaim Twerski: Halachic Issues Regarding Baal Tosif with Techeiles
    Rabbi Yehoshua Yankelowitz: The Yerushalmi as a Potential Source to Identify Techeiles
    Rabbi Bentzion Halberstam: Halachic Issues Regarding Techeiles Today

    #1934912
    Benephraim
    Participant

    As you may know the Baki Hador, Harav Herzog zl was an expert in marine biology having been the Chief Rabbi of Ireland.He discussed the kabalah of the Radziner Rebbe. BTW do you remember the Radziner shtible in Boro Park?

    #1934917
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think wearing five strands of tzitzis bound together would be bal tosif and three bal tigra and wear tzitzis put on five kanfus bal tosef and on three bal tigra.

    #1934920
    mobico
    Participant

    Yes, there could be.

    As someone who has spent many many hours researching the issue and has given a few Shiurim on the topic, I will say that there are about as many convincing arguments that the Murex dye is NOT Techeiles as there are that it is indeed Techeiles. (As an aside, this topic is almost Trump-like – it is very difficult to have a dispassionate discussion with knowledgeable people on the subject. Either you’re a Kofer is you don’t believe it is Techeiles or you’re a Kofer if you do.)
    Therefore – and I heard this directly from R’ Moshe Shternbuch Shlit”a – while it is true that one may wear colored Tztitzis threads, this is only if he is not Mechaven to be Mekayem a Mitzvah. If one wears the Murex threads believing them to be Techeiles and to fulfill the D’Oraisa and it turns out that they are not (and they absolutely CANNOT be according to ALL Rishonim), then he has transgressed Bal Tosif. (BTW, since there is no Mesora, there is def. no Bal Tigra here.)
    R’ Shternbuch holds that even if one is aware of the issues, then he ought not to wear this Techeiles since he will be Machshil others in thinking that it is Vadai Techeiles, leading to a Cheshash Bal Tosif. He conceded the point that there is no reason not to wear them B’Tzin’ah as long as one does so only Al ha’Tzad.

    #1934940
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Wearing Rashi and Rabbenu Taam tefillin together is that bal tosif?

    #1934949
    mobico
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    No. Mimah Nifshach you are only wearing one pair of Kosher Tefilin. However, to avoid APPEARANCES of Bal Tosif, the upper one should be covered.

    #1934950
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If wearing this tzitzis is bal tosif, are you wearing a beged without tzitzis or bal tosif is a seoarate issur?

    #1934959
    besalel
    Participant

    An Israeli Yid: Its funny because I know a number of american chareidi gedolim who wear tekhelet under their clothing and hide it away for the same reason R’ Belsky mentioned. I find it funny when I hear their talmidim go off the rails defending the (really nonsensical, imo) position that its assur to wear it. I do not divulge what i know in honor and reverence of the gedolim but i still find it hysterical.

    #1934953
    Yeshiv-ish
    Participant

    In regards to wearing the murex techeiles, there is no chashash of baal tosef if it happens to be the wrong one (even though it’s poshut the right one).
    Look at the Gemara Menochos (40a) which says, in regards to wearing Kala Ilan instead of real techeiles, “lo yehay ela Levan”. Meaning there is no difference between wearing the colored strings if it happens to be the wrong techeiles.
    From here the rishonim are medayik that there is no baal tosef in regards to wearing the ‘wrong’ techeiles. See tosfos (ibid 38a hatecheiles) and the rosh (hilchos tzitzis siman 6).

    Also, the minhag or halacha of wearing the strings the same color as the beged doesn’t apply to wearing the ‘wrong’ techeiles, rather only the strings that are bmekom the lavan strings. Ayin Chazon ish (OH 3:25).

    Its pretty clear that there is absolutely no downside to wearing the murex techeiles if it happens to be the wrong one. It’s also pretty muchach that it is the real techeiles. And even if it is a safek, we apply the ruling of safek doreisa lechumra.

    Slowly but surely, more poskim and rabonim are starting to wear the murex techeiles. Beezras Hashem, klal yisroel should be zoche to keep the whole Torah k’halacha.

    If anyone who is open minded and has any questions on the topic there are plenty of seforim and websites that discuss this topic in great length with real substantial arguments and reasons.

    #1934989
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    From Mobico:
    “it is very difficult to have a dispassionate discussion with knowledgeable people on the subject.”

    That by itself is a good reason to follow the Rema and only wear white tzitzis. The number of Aveiros one can get involved in by arguing unnecessarily are many and are D’oreisa. We are in Galus because of Sinas Chinam – not because of Techeiles. I fear that the individuals who wear techeiles might be considered Ba’alei Machlokes in Shamayim – even if they do it B’tzina.

    #1934993
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi says that bal tosif by tefilin nullifies the mitzva and when weaing it on shabbos becomes a burden to carry, so if there is bal tosif here, than it would be considered like wearing a talis with no tzitzis.

    #1935013
    refoelzeev
    Participant

    Rafi Hecht I’m surprised you’re asking considering you have a website devoted to techeiles. You seem to be holding.

    In any event HaRav Shlomo Miller wrote that one reason not to wear techeiles today is that there’s a chashash Bal tosif since according to the Rambam only one string should have techeiles. If someone only put on one string then it’s Bal Tigra according to other Rishonim. I mamash don’t get it though since the Mishnah Berurah already paskened like Rashi and Tosafos to have four strings of techeiles…

    #1935168
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Hershel Schachter actually holds that you are obligated to wear the techeiles. You can read his reasoning in the sefer R’ Schachter on the Parsha, Parshas Shelach.
    He says it’s not yuhara, because that only applies to something that is a midas chassidus. He holds this would be considered a safek d’Oraysa, and we should be machmir to wear it.
    He further quotes the Beis haLevi who says that bal tigrah is in a case where you knowingly perform a mitzvah l’chatchilah in a way that it is only fulfilled b’dieved. If it’s not such a case, it’s not bal tigrah, it’s a bitul mitzvah.
    Since we hold that wearing tzitzis without techeiles is a b’dieved, and we have a safek d’Oraysa with what may be the proper dye, not using it could cause you to knowingly fulfill the mitzvah b’dieved.
    He closes the piece by saying that since we wear a tallis as a midas chassidus (as the only obligation is if you are wearing a garment with 4 corners), then if you don’t use the techeiles (and it’s readily available), you’d be better off not wearing the tallis at all!

    #1935175
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Benephraim: Yes, I remember the Radziner shtiebel very well. My father davened there when he was younger, and still returned to daven there for the Yomim Noraim each year. I was there with him until I got old enough that I davened in my yeshiva.

    #1935203
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Turei Aven in the Avnei Miluim says about bal tigra that it has to be good bedaved otherwise it is null, no mitzva involved. There is a custom in Sopron, Hungary, my birth place, that on Simchas Torah the baal tefila took a potato and corn stalk as a lulav and esrug for Halel.

    #1935406
    Benephraim
    Participant

    RE , did you know the Soproner Rov? Rav Chaim Shpitzer always quoted from him? For example the etymology of country. So Rav Shpitzer said in the name of the Soproner that it comes from contra. Whatever צניעות you have in the city is now the opposite. Au contrare. Nice vort.

    #1935404
    Benephraim
    Participant

    To my landsman.DaMoshe.et Al.
    Do you remember the old Rav , Reb Yerucham, Reb Mordche Yosef, or Reb Yanki zatzal? There were heimishe Yidden from Radzin who knew the Avnei Nezer and Reb Shialeh Kutner. Do you remember when the Gaon Reb Chaim Zimmerman came? Or the Buffalo Rov who was a mechutan? The Bobover Rebbe’s nephew etc. and so many more? Please write about your recollection.

    #1935439
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a son in Williamsburg, Soproner Beis Hamidrash on 117 Hewes Street, Rav Pinchos Posen Shlita who looks like him. Rav Shimon ztz’l was supposed to come to my Bar Mitzva but he had another simcha, so he verhered me my pshetel. I was nine years when I left Sopron in February of 1957. His yahr zeit is Shvi Shel Pesach.

    #1935454
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Benephraim: R’ Yerucham was before my time. I do remember both R’ Mordche Yosef and R’ Yanki well.
    I really only davened there for the Yomim Noraim. What are my recollections? The old baal Shacharis there, R’ Hoch – his voice had a haunting quality to it. I remember that during Mussaf (with Mr. Bronfeld davening), they had the minhag for someone else to sing the piyut of Heyei im pipiyos. R’ Hoch sang it, to the most beautiful tune. Years later my brother found where the tune is from – b’nei heichalah, from Modzitz (sang by BZ Shenker).
    The Baal Tokeya, Mr. Vershlizer (not Jack, he was retired when I davened there, it was his son) – he was also a chazzan. I can still hear his Min Hameitzar so clearly in my mind.
    What else….
    There was a family who used to bring in a huge rug for bowing down, so that people wouldn’t have to use paper towels or newspaper.
    I’m sure other memories will come to me over time.

    #1935456
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    He was a talmid of the Minchas Elozor and he left Sopron before my time. My rov was Rav Aaron Meyer Krausz in Sopron.

    #1935612
    Jude
    Participant

    Back to Techeiles: I don’t see how it helps to wear it only on the tallis koton. If you hold that you can obtain techeiles, then you have a compulsory mitzvas asei to put it on every four-cornered garment that you are wearing. If your tallis godol does not have techeiles, then you are mevatteil mitzvas asei, even if you are wearing another tallis with techeiles.

    #1937286
    mobico
    Participant

    Jude – once again, there is no Mesora. No Rav I have spoken to or heard of maintains that this is a Chiyuv. How could it be, if there are big Machloksim among the Rishonim (Rashi – Rambam, for example), and this can only be Kosher Techeiles according to one at the most?

    Therefore, if one wears it b’Tzinah on one Beged, let’s say, while having in mind to be Yotazei Al ha’Tzad, then he has gained the possible fulfillment of this Mitzvah while losing nothing,

    #1937437
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    mobico: See what I wrote above, that R’ Hershel Schachter holds that one is obligated to use the techeiles if wearing a tallis (or tallis katan).

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