Techeiles and Drinking on Purim

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  • #615064

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    For the sake of argument let’s grant that there is a chiyuv to get drunk until you mix up Haman and Mordechai. This level is obviously based on the incident with Haman leading Mordechai on the horse in which some people (most notably Hamans daughter) mixed up Haman and Mordechai. Mordechai was wearing Techeiles (as it says ???????? ??????? ???????? which includes Techeiles as per ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????????? ????? ????????? ??????????? ????? ????????????.

    Those who are pro-Techeiles can easily recognize Mordechai -obviously the one wearing Techeiles is the Jew. But those who are against Techeiles would say that obviously the one wearing Techeiles is not the Jew. Thus, even without drinking they would mix up Haman Mordechai. So clearly the chiyuv to drink only applies to the pro-Techeiles crowd.

    #1063167

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you at the same yoiser milimudoi party as popa?

    #1063168

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Why do you think Popa is so into the Rema’s shitta? It’s because he knows the Mechaber doesn’t apply to him.

    #1063169

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Furthermore, we have to ask why when distinguishing between Haman and Mordechai the lashon used is “?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????” whereas by Techeiles the lashon used is “?????? ??? ???? ????”.

    The answer is obviously based on Edmund Gettier’s chilluk between “Justified True Belief” and “Knowledge”

    (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/philosophy-question .)

    So it comes out that ?? ??? ??? just means that you can’t have absolute knowledge, but you can still have justified true belief. Thus, it shouldn’t take that much alcohol to reach such a state.

    #1063170

    theprof1
    Participant

    Go to sleep. You won’t know the difference. They didn’t have wild yeshiva bochurim driving cars during the days of the amoraim.

    #1063171

    theprof1 – it’s not so pashut to go to sleep especially if you’re driving.

    #1063172

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    When the Rambam said to go to sleep, they didn’t have “wild yeshiva bochurim driving cars”.

    #1063173

    FFBBT613
    Member

    Dunno if this is a joke or not but I really feel that the level that we are on, drinking should be reserved for true tzadikim. I feel a lot of people abuse the drinking on Purim to an unholy degree.

    #1063174

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant
    #1063175

    FFBBT613
    Member

    PAA- I’m aware of the Halacha, however it also says somewhere I can’t bring the exact quote that it doesn’t mean to get plastered off of Grey Goose and Patron, it means to drink more than the norm- so let’s say a normal person has a glass of wine with their meal, so on Purim they’ll drink two glasses… it’s when people start to get drunk off of vodka and the like- is when they start to chip away at the actual mitzvah.

    #1063176

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    For a number of years I had a bunch of Philly boys come to my house for the seuda. Ever one of them drank quite a bit of wine . Yet every year each one of them would say over beautiful divrai torah ( clearly and coherently), sing and dance with a simcha only found on purim , and , needless to say, behaved perfectly. It was beautiful. I continue to maintain my seuda in this fashion. I drink quite a bit ; say over as many pachad yitzchoks as I can recall, and try to be mesamach all those who come in during the seuda. I’ll stop drinking 2 hrs before maariv so that I can daven properly.

    And yes, I usually reach a point during the seuda where I can’t tell the difference between the white bottles and the blue bottles.

    My point is that while I realize that the excesses , particularly of bochrim, have led to necessary takanos( I won’t ever serve alcohol to boys collecting)there can be no doubt that for those who know they are able to drink at the purim seudah and retain the proper kovod for purim , they should do so and try to reach the madreigos chazal intended on purim.

    Anyone who remembers Rav Hutner on Purim will know exactly what I am talking about.

    #1063177

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Something tells me you didn’t read the quote. I was actually mostly agreeing with you. If you read it you’ll see what I mean.

    #1063178

    FFBBT613
    Member

    PAA- sorry, it downloaded funny on my phone.

    #1063179

    theprof1
    Participant

    Anybody who thinks that the mitzva of drinking on purim, as mandated by chazal until you can’t tell between boruch mordechai and orur haman, means drinking until you vomit all over your good suit, or drive and hurt yourself or another. You are a complete ahm ho’oretz. Rav Hutner ztzl would become fairly drunk and his best Torah came from that. but he sat in one place.

    #1063180

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    FFBBT613:

    Here is the relevant part:

    ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???”? ??? ??’ ???”? ??”? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ???? ?????’ ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? (???”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????) ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ??’ ?? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ??’ ????? ????? ???’ ??? ??? ???? ????????? ??? ???”? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??”? ???’ ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?”? ?? ??”? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ????? ?????? ???”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???’ ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????’ ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????”?

    #1063181

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So I’m reading an article by Mordechai Schmutter about drinking on Purim. As I’m reading it I’m saying to myself “whoa, this guy totally plagiarized my first and third posts on this thread”. Then I did a little research and it turns out that Mordechai Shmutter already penned such ideas in past years. So maybe I am actually the plagiarizer. But I hadn’t seen his article(s) until after I already posted. So I guess I can just say that I was mechavein. Though it wasn’t actually the same as what he said; it was similar ideas.

    #1063182

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    PAA, was not responding to you- just trying to tone down the negativity .

    Btw, with respect to the “pro techeiles crowd” I recently heard an interesting point from a R’ M. Joffen : The heter we rely upon to wear tzitis, even though by wearing a four cornered begged we are being mevatal the mitzvas asai of techailes, is based on rishonim who say that since we don’t know what techailes is , it is not called being mevatel an asai. However, those who believe that they know what techailes is ,would apparently have no heter to go up to the amud to daven with the shul’s non- techailes tallis!

    #1063183

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    dafbiyun:

    And I wasn’t responding to you; I was responding to FFBBT613.

    If we don’t know what Techeiles is then we can say ???? ???? ???? ?? ????. But what if there is a way to find out what Techeiles is?

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