December 17, 2012 1:10 am at 1:10 am #607459The FrumguyParticipant
Curious to know what kind of knot you have on the back of your shel rosh (men only). Is it a regular Daled or a square “Double Daled?”
I’ll start – I have a double daled.December 17, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1226086147Participant
Double DaledDecember 17, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1226087R.T.Participant
Single Daled.December 17, 2012 5:22 am at 5:22 am #1226088Derech HaMelechMember
Double daled. Although oddly, I wrap inward.December 17, 2012 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1226089The FrumguyParticipant
I also wrap inward with a double daled knot. Is there a Nusach Ashkenaz – Sephard significance to the kind of kesher on your shel rosh?December 17, 2012 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1226090R.T.Participant
The double Daled is mentioned in the Pri Etz Chaim and the Mishnat Chassidim that the double Daled is to resemble a Mem Sofit (or Stuma).
This appears to be the practice of Rav Natan Adler and the Chasam Sofer (& his descendants and Talmidim).
Also practiced by the Sanzer Chassidim (the Double Daled is sometimes called the Sanz knot).
It also appears to be practiced by some Mekubalim of Bet El.
The source is an interesting statement in the Zohar (Pinchas): to tie/knot behind a Daled reverse/upside down which some interpret as a reverse daled behind a straight daled.
It appears (my own observations) not to be practiced by mainstream Ashkenazim, mainstream Sefardim, Chabad Lubavitch Chassidim and even some Ashkenazim that daven Nusach Sfard.December 17, 2012 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1226091uneeqMember
Single Daled.April 29, 2013 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1226092
Sephardim have a Dalet shaped kesher. Among Teimanim there are 2 minhagim- some have a single dalet and some a double dalet. Non Chassidic Ashkenazim use a single dalet, other than yekkis, who have a double dalet. Most Polish and Russian Chassidim have a single dalet while most Hungarian, Romanian and Czechoslovakian chassidim have a double dalet.
There is extensive discussion as to which is the correct kesher. I heard that 2 seforim recently came out specifically discussing this matter, each one representing one of the sides. For the most part, each person should stick with his minhag. However what do those who have no minhag do? Rav Yaakov Meir Stern brings sources to show that the double dalet is the correct kesher and hence one without a minhag should do so. However, Rav Dovid Morganstern in Zichron Eliyahu concludes that the single dalet is the correct kesher. (It is generally accepted that this sefer follows the psak of Rav Elyashiv unless noted otherwise.) The same opinion is concluded in Hadar Tefillin by Rav Raphael Toledano. He brings down Rav Shraya Diblitzky, who goes so far as to say that than the Dalet is the correct kesher and one who switches from his minhag of a double dalet to a single dalet brings bracha upon himself! Of course, one must consult his rav if he is without a minhag or has concerns about his minhag.April 29, 2013 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1226093dafyomi2711Member
Ive noticed unfortunately all too often people are wearing their shel rosh too low on their forehead its supposed to be on your hairline and nobody has or had a lineline on their forehead! please be careful or your not yotzei also the knot in the back is supposed to be halfway up on the indentation leading to the back of your neckApril 29, 2013 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1226094YW Moderator-42Moderator
I think the knot in back is supposed to be opposite “bein einecha”, make a straight line from your eyes around to the back of your neck.April 30, 2013 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1226095
The entire bayis she rosh must be above the (original hairline). For the back, vertically it must be in the center of the head (like the bayis in the front- bein einecha, as pointed out by the moderator) and horizontally the upper part of the kesher should rest on the bone at the base of the skull and the lower part of the kesher should rest on the indentation/nape of the neck. Minimally, it needs to be entirely above the neckline.April 30, 2013 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1226096BenditParticipant
My sofer said (in the name of someone) that a single daled is our double and a double daled is much biger and has a hole in the middleApril 30, 2013 6:33 am at 6:33 am #1226097ItcheSrulikMember
I tie a single dalet because my father does though the fact that the Rambam says the knot is “square like a dhol” and that two communities known for best preserving ancient minhagim in both Ashkenaz and the Mideast use the double seems to suggest that was the original custom. It is interesting to note that the Yemenite/Yekke double dalet is tied differently than the Hungarian one. It has been suggested that the Hungarian knot changed because the inside of the Yekke/Yemenite double dalet looks like a cross.April 30, 2013 9:58 am at 9:58 am #1226098twistedParticipant
Sub thread poll: What is the size of your batim.April 30, 2013 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1226099mobicoParticipant
R’ Avraham Yitzchok Ulman Shlita is Rav of Givat Shaul, and was the youngest member of the Badatz Eidah ha’Chareidis when he became a Dayan a number of years ago. He is utterly brilliant. I heard from him that there is no such thing as the single Dalet knot; it is a relatively recent development based upon a mistaken understanding, disseminated by one individual who made it his life’s focus. He has multiple Rayos based on all of the sources, and a full explanation with knowledge of the history behind it all as to how this came to be.April 30, 2013 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #1226100shmoolik 1Participant
Single DaledMay 1, 2013 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1226101ItcheSrulikMember
mobico: Which version of the double dalet does he use?May 2, 2013 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1226102
As far as I’m aware, today everyone makes the double dalet the same way. A minor addition was added at a later date so the back side shouldn’t look like a cross. The front side looks the same. Perhaps this change wasn’t implemented by those in Teiman who use the double dalet due to being a muslim country.
There are many major poskim, on either side and this discussion is far from new. While Rav Ulman has very broad shoulders, Rav Diblitzky, for example, who is one of the senior gedolei haposkim differs. One should follow his minhag and must consult a posek how they should be noheg if they don’t have one or if there is basis to switch.May 2, 2013 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1226103ToiParticipant
i have a beast of a single dalet.March 14, 2017 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1226105ezrahoersterParticipant
Single daled. (Currently) However I am planning on getting some new tefillin and I was considering a double daled. But I don’t like how it looks both like a cross and a swastika at the same time. (Double daled does)March 14, 2017 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1226106MenoParticipant
The type of tefillin you get should not be based on whether or not you like the way it looks.March 14, 2017 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1226107Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
Meon, when I saw your post, my first thought was that someone must have ignored the instructions in the op. Then I saw the post before yours and it made more sense.March 14, 2017 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1226108iacisrmmaParticipant
My father and grandfather’s tefillin had the double daled therefore I and my son’s have the double daled.March 14, 2017 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1226109CTLAWYERParticipant
That’s what my zaidy bought me for my Bar Mitzvah and as I’ve bought new and bigger Tefillin over the years I follow that tradition. I never noticed what my father wore, and my brother’s tefillin were purchased by my mother’s father and are single.March 14, 2017 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1226110JosephParticipant
CTL, why have you bought new and bigger Tefilin over the years?March 14, 2017 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1226111iacisrmmaParticipant
CTLAWYER: My maternal grandfather bought my tefillin. The sofer insisted that I try them on. I told him that I couldn’t as the tefillin were nussach ashkenaz and has the single daled. The sofer took the tefillin and in two minutes the tefillin were nussach sefard with a double daled.March 15, 2017 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1226112CTLAWYERParticipant
I like to have a set at home, a set I keep in shul and a 3rd set for travel (I used to keep these in my Florida home, until I sold the home).
The straps on my Bar Mitzvah tefillin are not the length I require to be comfortable around the girth of my adult arms (quite bigger in circumference than they were at 13).
The batim that were in fashion 50+ years ago were much smaller than those typical today, and I have bought newer ones that are more in keeping with my general size.
Similarly, I now wear a bigger talis than the one that was purchased for use at my Bar Mitzvah (purchased by the German side grandfather).
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