May 27, 2018 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1526603MilhouseParticipant
Joseph, I have never seen a reliable source saying that the expiration date was after 1000 years. The only two opinions I’m aware of are that it expired in 5000 and continues to this day merely as a minhag, or that there was no expiration date. But my point is that this machlokes can only exist because NOBODY KNOWS, because the original text does not exist, and did not exist even in the Rishonim’s day. So the claim that the original text gives a reason to do with conforming to Xian practice CANNOT be true.May 28, 2018 9:33 am at 9:33 am #1526810yitzchakmbaParticipant
Hi Avi K, I have seen this faulty logic before the absence of discussion does not mean absence of them having more than one wife. In a culture and environment where it is normal to have more than one wife it’s not even a Halachic discussion point which is why we dont see it discussed at all virtually. It’s only when Judaism is in conflict with the Churches war against Polygany in the late 10th century and beyond that this is even discussed. The Tenach has hundreds of references and inferrred Polygounous families especially if you read through NaK only a few are troublesome as we know that’s for us to learn and understand how not to do Polygany. Additionally the Culture of Polygany was a normal part of the Jewish landscape for non European Jews until the Modern State of Israel, Polygany is very pragmatic solution to many Marriage and Halachic issues for family situations, however because of the West’s Catholic/ Protestant bias against Polygany it’s an Issue. As an ex Catholic boy I am more than familiar with this issue in fact the truth of Marriage laws of HaShem in contrast to what I learnt and was raised in as a “good catholic boy” was one of that caused me to dump xtianity and eventually choose to become Jewish. Its sad to see that Polygany is disparaged and constantly portrayed as bad when in fact it’s a very Holy and has many Tikun aspects to it. The GRA is quoted as saying that if he was to stop learning Torah he would first go from Town to Town to get the Ban of Rebenu Gershon overturned, because he said that it would lead to many more Jewish souls being born and that in turn would hasten the coming of Mashiach.May 28, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1526946
1. Hundreds? I dispute that.
2. The only polygamous Tanna was Rabbi Tarfon – and as the number given is 300 it could be that they were only pro forma marriages so that they could eat terumot and maaserot as he was a cohen. In fact, Chazal call a co-wife a tzaara.
3. One can also say that polygamy among Sephardim (which was actually very uncommon) was influenced by Islam.May 28, 2018 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1526952It is Time for TruthParticipant
“Joseph, I have never seen a reliable source saying that the expiration date was after 1000 years”
R’ Akiva Eger may something like thatMay 28, 2018 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1527782👑RebYidd23Participant
If a society has 100 men and 101 women, should that woman remain single?May 28, 2018 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1527786
Avi, the Gemora doesn’t tell us who the wives are for most Tanaaim. It’s not telling us one way or another is no indication that any particular Tanna did or didn’t have more than one wife simultaneously.May 29, 2018 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1527818
RY, maybe she should look into other societies. Today with Internet shidduch sites it is not a problem.
Joseph,The Gemara calls a co-wife a tzaara. Chazal also say (Tanhuma Ki Tetzeh 1)
כי תצא למלחמה – שנו רבותינו: מצוה גוררת מצוה ועבירה גוררת עבירה.
וראית בשביה וגו’ וגלחה את ראשה ועשתה את צפרניה – כדי שלא תמצא חן בעיניך. מה כתיב בתריה? כי תהיין לאיש שתי נשים וגו’. שתים בבית – מריבה בבית, ולא עוד, אחת אהובה ואחת שנואה, או שתיהן שנואות. מה כתיב אחריו? כי יהיה לאיש בן סורר ומורה. כל מאן דנסיב יפת תאר – נפיק מינייהו בן סורר ומורה, שכן כתב בדוד, על שחמד מעכה בת תלמי מלך גשור בצאתו למלחמה – יצא ממנו אבשלום, שבקש להרגו, ושכב עם עשר פילגשיו לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני השמש, ועל ידו נהרגו מישראל כמה רבבות, ועשה מחלוקת בישראל, ונהרג שמעי בן גרא ושבע בן בכרי ואחיתופל, ולמפיבשת ולאיש בשת הרג, והשליט ציבא על כל בית שאול.May 29, 2018 6:55 am at 6:55 am #1527831
Avi, that doesn’t refute my last point which refuted your point about the number of Tanaaim who had multiple wives.May 29, 2018 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1527996
Joseph, I think that they would have been very surprised to be called Yidden. In any case, one cannot learn from what was done there. They also married off pre-pubescent girls whose fathers died (in order to keep them from being given to Moslem families by the authorities). This was also why boys married at very young ages. Rav Kapach was married at fourteen because he had been orphaned several years earlier and was thus in danger (BTW, he only had one wife).May 29, 2018 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1528461
Avi, all three of my Teimani friend’s wives disagree with you.May 29, 2018 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1528545
Joseph, why not marry another one? Then you can have mothers-in-law on all sides telling you how much you are not good enough for their daughters.
BTW, two women argued over whose daughter got the shidduch. The suggested dividing the boy into two. One mother agreed and the other said not to hurt him. The first woman was ruled the real mother-in-law.June 4, 2018 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1531777yitzchakmbaParticipant
Joseph you are a lucky man wish I could have such mazal!June 4, 2018 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1531794
Why, thank you, Yitzchak. I feel very blessed. I wish you the best of mazal in this inyan. (Though I obviously only advocate this for non-Ashkenazim, in deference to the Ashkenazic takana, unless the Ashkenazic Gedolim decide to start permitting it again.)August 13, 2020 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1891958misslydiaParticipant
Besalel, it might not be pritzus in halacha, but it’s called lust and infidelity in the language of common sense.August 14, 2020 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1892128n0mesorahParticipant
I do not know of any regular yid (Not a king.) from after Elkanah to Rabbeinu Gershom that had multiple wives.
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