October 24, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #822271
Boro Park Mensch: lol youre complaining about shmini atzeres maariv?! one day later we had 50 lubavitchers there to make a ruckus 😛
and i agree with everything you said. what do you think of Ms Critique’s idea of an open forum to suggest ideas? i know the current situation with the board and all that but once that gets sorted i think it might be a good idea if the rav and board held an open forum to hear ideas from mispallelim. the shul has a lot of board meetings but ive never been invited to a member’s meeting (even though i am a member as well) lol soliek maybe it wouldnt be such a bad idea.
also what kilobear said was spot on. if you want to start that type of shul…go ahead. but there is no need to suggest that we give up our beautiful makom torah utefillah!
OH! and if you happen to be a board member…get them talking about a website. i know the doctor choir guy (the guy who davened simchas torah mussaf) used to do that…but the shul really needs a website up and runningOctober 24, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #822272
No, i don’t agree with the last post to rent the shul.
The shul should stay with the Rabbi and board becoming realistic and open to changes suggested to make the shul more vibrant.
I understand that the current board members may be somewhat wary and rightfully so. But, when having a meeting it should be done at a time when notes can be taken and reviewed and thereafter all should be typed up in black and white to protect those who are long time members. Yes, they must be careful of who wants to jump in because they may take over slowly as has been done with one such shul in the mountains. One relative of the people who built the shul and are no longer among the living and their children are not affiliated was hurt to see the shul officially becoming a Chabad site. No, the Rabbi is very nice and devoted but by officially becoming a Chabad site, he receives funding and can survive even if there is no minyan many a time. It is not fair to the oldtimers, to those who contributed and if the same would be done to Beth El that too would not be fair and correct.October 24, 2011 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #822273
Attention all others who think BP sorely needs a new Shul that excites young and old with its geshmak davening, along the lines of a good Chazzan or Carlebach davening, with a Rabbi with loads of personality who would inspire, offering ongoing Shiurim for men and women in English, with right wing YU type leanings with old-time values and upholding Tznius, that attracts BT’s, singles and young families, striking at the heartstrings of potential OTD’s, and isnt old-time Chassidish/Rebbe style but with a varemkeit, but respects them nonetheless, that would be located in BP and attract those from inside BP looking for something different, and also those from outside BP for its warmth and hislahavus, that would almost unite all like family (there are Shuls like that), (a combination of Aish Kodesh, Hineni, Rabbi Fund’s minyan and many others known to have some of the qualities mentioned above), I wish we could all get together. Does this speak to anyone?October 24, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #822275
make a new thread for thatOctober 24, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #822276nitpickerParticipant
I have only read a few of the posts on this thread and will offer
no opinion on what bp needs now.
I am offended by the thread itself.
The very idea of saying what they should become and asking
others for opinions! What gall!October 24, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #822277
I’m old enough to remember BE in its heyday. Yom Tov, it was THE place to be seen if you were a frum modern single.
That scene is still quite alive and vibrant. But it has moved to places like Ohav Tzedek on the UWS.
Its just a matter of time before the BE building gets taken over by one of the chassidim.October 24, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #822278
bpt, Its just a matter of time before the BE building gets taken over by one of the chassidim.
And the most stunning Shul in the world attacked by angry bulldozers for need of more space.October 24, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #822279
thats lovely…but only if it comes from a decision by the board and the members. the chassidim can come and daven there and they may be in the majority but the minhagim and derech of teh shul will remain the same unless its decided by the members and the board that they want to change. whatever happens in the future happens…October 24, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #822280600 Kilo BearMember
Rental can pose problems – but how does the shul keep the lights on? The old architecture is not energy-efficient in any way and the heating and AC bill must be nightmarish. If they can rent it out as a hall that is always best – a second kehilla does result in problems at times even as a renter.
Regardless, there is no reason for a new, alternative shul to start with a huge building. That is a recipe for failure – it means they will have to depend either on a big organization (unlikely in BP) or a big donor (more likely) who will in the end want things his way – and that means his rav and his hashkafah.
The best thing is for a grass-roots shul to start small and build itself up from the roots. Alternately, someone needs to find another Lipa in BP – that is a businessman or professional who is not a rov but can take care of the gashmius of an informal shul at least in the beginning. Someone like that can keep it open to all who are interested and let it develop as necessary because he himself is not a rov or a representative of any organization.October 24, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #822281
soliek, who ever said anything about changing the derech and minhagim of the shul?
I have only read a few of the posts on this thread and will offer
no opinion on what bp needs now.
I am offended by the thread itself.
The very idea of saying what they should become and asking
others for opinions! What gall!
You’re right, nitpicker! Hashem will decide the fate of the Shul. Hopefully it wont go the way of Emanuel, but if it does it will be decreed from above.
Are you offended at all by my new thread about a new type of Shul in BP? Just wondering.October 24, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #822282zahavasdadParticipant
I am surprised the Shul has not been declared Apikorsus and put in Cherem by some people in BPOctober 24, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #822283
” attacked by angry bulldozers “
Sad, but quite possibly, the way it might end. Its what happened <lehavdil> to Menorah and <lehavdil> to EmmanuelOctober 24, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #822284
” unless its decided by the members and the board “
If they put their minds (and $100k) to it, the chassidim can install a new board by having “new” members join. Most likely, membership is open to anyone orthodox, and once a member in good standing, have the right to vote.
It happened in shuls before, and could happen here too.
The only way to possibly stop it, would be to apply for landmark status, but that might open up the shul to photo snapping sighseers (dressed less than frum).
Sad state of affairs, but one that the membership of the 1960s 70s set the stage for, all by themselvesOctober 24, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #822285
well that wouldnt be very nice now would it
btw thats what shomrei emuna was thinking of doing. they didnt because it would have been disgustingOctober 24, 2011 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #822286Dr. SeussMember
Sad state of affairs, but one that the membership of the 1960s 70s set the stage for, all by themselves
bpt: What do you mean by that?October 24, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #822287
“What do you mean by that?”
Simple. If you were there in those days, you’d see the crowd and understand.
There was only one G-d those folks worshipped, and only one message the kids were fed: the American Dream. College is a must for success, and the quicker you integrate with the USA, the sooner you can be assured you have made it out of the shtetle. Yiddishkeit is nice, but if you have finals coming up, its a given that you study on Shabbos, Tom Tov, whatever.
The hypocracy of going to shul in the morning, but watching the ball game after the seudah, being a member of a frum shul, but kashrus was determined on an as needed basis one of two things happened to the membership’s offspring:
* As a result of living with this hypocracy for so long, the next gen of kids / grandkids are too off the D to go to shul, so what happens to BE, happens.
* As a result of seeing the side effects of this hypocracy, for so long, the next gen of kids / grandkids realize there has got to be more to Judaism, than just lip service. So, off they go to find some true meaning to all the plastic they’ve been fed, turn yeshiva frum, and feel uncomfortable in a place like BE. So as sad as its sounds, whatever happens to BE, happens.
Like I said, been there, seen it. Doesn’t taste good, but its just the way it is.October 25, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #822288
bpt, you don’t know my shul or the people in it so why do you speak such authoritative loshon horah?
soliek, yes, I enjoyed the Chabad people lending a hand with the hakafot. They are definitely welcome.
Ms. Critique, on what planet are you living? Where did it come to you to start giving advice on how MY shul should or should not have meetings?
Moderators, YW Editor, why is this offensive thread allowed on here? Would you allow the same thing about Bobov???October 25, 2011 2:54 am at 2:54 am #822289
Boro Park Mensch
Calm down, i mamesh can hear you screaming like the Rechnitzer Rebbe. No one is speaking loshon hora, it is ledivrei toeles to try and help your shul. Sometimes people look at life through a mirror(where they see themselves only) rather than through glass/window, where they can see others.
Like i mentioned, i enjoy coming to the shul and contribute nicely and will continue doing so even for the few times i may attend.
Listen and be realistic or else you’ll need a box of Kleenex for your tears of mourning(the Shul), chas v’shalom.
Tell me where you sit and i will say hello when i come next time!October 25, 2011 4:17 am at 4:17 am #822290cherrybimParticipant
Boro Park Mensch – It’s the quality of the mispalell not the quantity. Why would any shul seek people who have no kavod bais ha’knesses and talk throughout davening.
And find me a Rov or Rebbe in Boro Park who can compare with the erlichkeit and learning ability of Rabbi Snow. You can’t.
Unfortunately, the demographics are working against you and hopefully soon the shul will be transported to Yerushlayim ir hakodesh b’vias hamoshiach and will once again shine in its full glory.October 25, 2011 4:35 am at 4:35 am #822291
BPM, Moderators, YW Editor, why is this offensive thread allowed on here? Would you allow the same thing about Bobov???
If Bobov would have had to import Crown Heightsers to liven up Hakafos, and
If the bulk of Bobov Mispallelim would be 60+, and
If Bobov membership would be steadily declining, and
If the Bobov shul would be a masterpiece of art, the most stunning in the world,
it WOULD BE A Mitzvah to be posting ideas to lessen the chances of the shul going the way of the bulldozers .
The handwriting is clearly on the wall, wake up and smell the coffee, BE members! Do everything in your power, utilizing all your Hishtadlus, to guarantee the Shul wont be destroyed and then we’ll know you really care.
If the Shul got destroyed for lack of the members’ efforts, it would be a sad day for all.October 25, 2011 6:31 am at 6:31 am #822292
see…its funny cuz people who dont daven there think they understand the place…October 25, 2011 8:13 am at 8:13 am #822293commonsenseParticipant
sorry bpt, but I beg to differ, I think you are generalizing tremendously! Maybe the reason the next generation does not daven there is because in our frum world you are either right or left wing and therefore there is no middle ground anymore. the children of these mispallim are either more right wing or left wing than their parents and therefore do not fit in with the shul. in my relative’s case they raised their children so well that their children are more comfortable davening in many other boro park shuls, but they became that way because of the chinuch they received from their parents who still daven there.October 25, 2011 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #822294
this thread is really beginning to annoy me.
unless you daven at beth el either daily or at the very least weekly dont claim to understand the shul. i dont care if you were davening there when koussevitzky was in diapers. unless you daven there regularly now please dont pretend that you understand the shul.
secondly…anonymous. your agenda is not leshem shamayim…what is it.
thirdly. you wanna know why boro park mentch and i are so annoyed by your collective suggestions? because you think we want them. you think it would benefit the shul. people who dont daven at the shul, and people who dont understand the shul are jumping at the opportunity to provide unwanted advice. so the response of course would be “well if it were my shul and it were floundering i would LOVE these ideas and all teh advice!” well guess what. so far 3 members of the shul (mexipal BPM and myself…by the way did i mention that mexipal and i are both young? idk about BPM)have stated their disinterest in your gratuitous advice.
fourth and final. if you pop in once a month to hear chazzan miller on shabbos mevarchim, or you pop in for the carlebach concert (which is coming up november 18th…GET TICKETS!) or you pop in occasionally to show your kids how beautiful the building…dont pretend to understand the membership at the shul. you cant. really…you dont know all the families that daven here you dont know all the young people who daven here…in fact you dont know anyone who davens here. so please…stop. the shul looks empty because it can hold 2000 people but were it downsized to your average boro park shteeble youd think it quite full. so stop with the patronizing advice. we arent interested.October 25, 2011 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #822295
“bpt, you don’t know my shul or the people in it so why do you speak such authoritative loshon horah?”
Sorry, BPM, I DO know your shul (If BE is where you call home) and if you are any older than 45, you should know first hand what I’m talking about.
“I think you are generalizing tremendously”
Commonsense – While your relatives may be the exception to the rule, (or possibly, they are from the YI crowd, which tended to be frummer than the BE folks) the fact is, BE now serves a market that is not to be found in significant numbers in BP.
Had the cards been played differently, they may have had more to speak of. My parents were lucky enough to jump ship before we got lost to the American Dream.
Sad to say, that was not the case for many of the folks who remained.October 25, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #822296
Only fiscally thriving Shuls, occuring as a result of large and/or very generous membership, can stay afloat. What will happen when the first offer of millions come in and the Shul cant pay its bills?
If the Shul got destroyed for lack of the members’ efforts, it would be a sad day for all.October 25, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #822297
Why are you typing in bold…and you didn’t answer my question.October 25, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #822298
Sorry soliek, do I have your permission to be passionate about a stunning Shul that if it were destroyed, would be an affront and a black mark on/to all Jews/Jewish history?
Sorry soliek, whats the question?October 25, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #822299
you have my permission to be passionate just dont be annoying. my question was what your real agenda is. you obviously dont daven there very often so it couldnt possibly be for the shuls sake so what is your real agenda?October 25, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #822300
also you people do realize that comparing YIBE to emanuel is unfair. emanuel was conservative whereas YIBE has always been is and always will be orthodox…emanuel had been closed for many years because it was conservative so to make the comparison is grossly unfair.October 25, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #822301
My dear soliek,
you obviously dont daven there very often so it couldnt possibly be for the shuls sake so what is your real agenda?
You dont live in Israel, I assume, do you have opinions on Israel, nevertheless????
Do I have to type in bold for you to notice (what is your real agenda)?????????????????????????:
I’m passionate about a stunning Shul that if it were destroyed, would be an affront and a black mark on/to all Jews/Jewish history.
soliek, will you be selling tickets to the demolition show, ch”v????? People stood around and watched in horror the demolition of Emanuel. But it was TOO LATE.
My dear soliek, our love and concern for the future of BE should unite us, not divide us.October 25, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #822302
When did Temple Beth El and Young Israel merge? What prompted the merger?October 25, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #822303
” comparing YIBE to emanuel is unfair. “
You are correct, in as much as BE and YI are orthodox by charter. That’s why I said <lehavdil> on each of the examples I cited.
But the sad fact remains, if a bldg is not in use, it either gets turned over to someone else, or gets torn down.
But let me change directions for a moment. In 10 years from now, if no new members are signed on, which would the current membership of YIBE prefer:
Preserve the bldg as is, but vacant?
Subdivide the bldg, and turn in into classrooms?
In which way would Hashem’s glory be better served; having a magnificent bldg stand like a monument to what once was or the sounds of children learning be heard?October 25, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #822304
“soliek, will you be selling tickets to the demolition show, ch”v????? People stood around and watched in horror the demolition of Emanuel. But it was TOO LATE.”
“also you people do realize that comparing YIBE to emanuel is unfair. emanuel was conservative whereas YIBE has always been is and always will be orthodox…emanuel had been closed for many years because it was conservative so to make the comparison is grossly unfair.”
need i say more?
israeli politics are open to the public becfause all necessary information is readily available. a shul is different. if you dont know the people you cant have an opinion. the new york times dowsnt regularly post status reports about YIBE on its website so you don tknow whats going on there. i can tell you that what you think you know is wrong. and the reason why you dont know is because you have no source. it doesnt get posted anywehere, its not reported, and you dont daven there. so comparing israel to YIBE is also invalid.October 25, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #822305
In which way would Hashem’s glory be better served; having a magnificent bldg stand like a monument to what once was or the sounds of children learning be heard?
Sheesh! Thats a question thats not a question! Definitely the sounds of children learning!!!!
BUT, children learning dont need that kind of artistry. That would necessitate destruction of the Shul. Whereas turning the Shul into a popular, beloved and growing place of worship, where people of all backgrounds would be inspired to bring forth children who are learning, a little less cookie-cutterish than what BP offers now, would be a far better purpose for this gem in our midst, which is also a remembrance of the post-Holocaust population in New York and their love for beautiful Shuls, (who were not Chassidish, but heros nevertheless, and I dont envy anyone who judges them) rather than gutting it to make classrooms out of the museum building.October 25, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #822306
soliek, do people who appreciate the importance and beauty of the Shul, and leaving it in its present state physically, have your word (if youre really involved in the Shul politics and have input, otherwise asking you is irrelevant) that those with the power to make major decisions, will do anything in their power to make sure the building doesnt get demolished?
What is there to lose by fighting for irrevocable landmark status?October 25, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #822307
first of all if all youre worried about are the aesthetics then your priorities are misplaced. there is a congregation there now and you are ALL showing callous disregard for us. we are well aware of where we stand and if the time comes to make a decision demolition vs selling or landmarking then obviously the decision would one of the latter. but we are nowhere near that point and i resen tthe implication.
as for why we dont apply for landmark status yet…because then we lose control of the shul. forget it being about chassidish vs the current crowd…it could become orthodox vs reform or worse. landmarks are open to tourists and it would be a terrible bizayon to the shul if it were simply a tourist spot with tefillos there essentially for show.
the shul is NOT dead. not even close. dont worry…Young Israel beth El of Boro Park will be open and standing for many many more years to come.October 25, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #822308
by the way you people are assuming that its one or the other. torn down or us. its not like that. i find it WILDLY offensive that everyone assumes that the congregation currently in charge of the building is dead. i resent that assumption and im telling you its wrong. i can assure you that if it came to the point where such a decision was necessary the building would either be landmarked, sold, or rented to someone who would maintain it as it is. but we are nowhere near that point. so please…stop making that hurtful and offensive assumption.October 25, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #822309
Landmarks are open to tourists? I don’t think so.October 25, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #822310
they can be. it depends what the city wants to do with it. if you landmark a shul you lose control over it and thats the point. whatever happens to it…policy…congregation…affiliation…has to be fought over with the city. it would be a terrible situation.October 25, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #822311
I believe the only control you lose is you must first get approval before making any significant construction or demolition to a landmarked building. That’s pretty much it. You do not have to allow the public unto the premises.October 25, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #822312
idk…either way its not that simple because remember we ARE a member of YI and idk if unilateral decisions like that can be made…they have money invested in the shul soliekyea…by the way the only reason to landmark would be to prevent alteration or demolition, neither of which are even on the table at the moment becuase there is no way the shul is selling. please see my posts above.October 25, 2011 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #822313
soliek, please, would it be possiblefor you (or others) to share some of the history of the shul?October 26, 2011 1:31 am at 1:31 am #822314
“calm down.” “Screaming.”
Ms. Critique, where is your real shul? I would like to know where they teach such chutzpah? You don’t know me so have some derech eretz. And while we’re at it, stay out of the men’s section.
bpt, despite the disclaimer under your name to the contrary, you are being extremely caustic here and it’s not appreciated. I don’t care where you daven. Just stay out of my shul and my life, please.
Anonymous, (How many people is this, anyway?) The question about Bobov was rhetorical because obviously the YWN would never allow criticism of a chasidish shul here. There should be no double standard.
For the person who started this thread as well as others, let me be clear, The Young Israel-Beth El of Borough Park is not Hefker.” We ARE makpid.
WE will decide what happens with our shul and we don’t need or desire your unsolicited advice, especially when you use our shul and contribute nothing.
While we’re on that subject, glad you like taking your yeshiva pictures on our front steps, especially since none of you has ever obtained permission to do so. May I assume that since you are doing so, if G-d forbid, one of your kids slips on the steps you will not sue us since you are trespassers?
By the way, who gave you the heter to use our property without permission?
Oh, and as to the genius advice to flood the shul with charedi dues-paying members, take it over and kick us out, there is a word in the secular world for such behavior which any rasha who proposes such action will surely be familiar with–RICO.
Mods, please close and delete this obnoxious thread.October 26, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #822315
“the shul is NOT dead. not even close”
You (and the other YIBE members) are right. I should should not make statements without taking the time to see what is going on right now. Perhaps BE was one way back in the days of the Trustees patroling the aisles, but now things are at a turning point.
Sometime between now an Channukah, I’ll (B”E) daven there to see what you see.
Who knows? Some of the old timers might even remember me.October 26, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #822316
“Just stay out of my shul and my life, please.”
OK, maybe not EVERYONE will be thrilled to see me.October 26, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #822317
We welcome fellow Jews who wish to fulfill the mitzvahs of davening and listening to kriyat hatorah, not those with ulterior motives who are on “reconnaissance missions.”
Enough already!October 26, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #822318
davening in a shul once a year hardly gives you the authority to judge the validity of our existence.October 26, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #822319
And staying locked in your cocoon, unwilling, or unable to see how time is not standing still, while you stay convinced that your way is still a good venue in terms of building the next generation of yiddishkeit is equally as hurtful.
Need I remind you, BE was MY SHUL. And when it became clear that to stay, was to pretty much guarrantee that my kids would never daven with me, we (meaning, me and my father) left.
I lost a whole slew of friends to the plastic Judaism BE was famous for in the 70s. So yes, I think I have a right to speak on its behalf.
See you on Shabbos!October 26, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #822320
There is “off the derech” and then there is “off the rails.” LOL.
bpt, by no stretch of anyone’s imagination except your own do you have any right to speak on behalf of my shul, which I remind you once again is the Young Israel–Beth El of Borough Park.
Mods, again, I beg of you, lock and delete this thread.October 26, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #822321
bpt…you left. LEFT. i daven there now. now i ask you…who is more qualified to decide the future of the shul that I DAVEN IN?
i dont care how many years ago you davened there, i dont care how many friends you lost…quit dwelling in the past. it WAS your shul. previously. and im sorry you feel that BE didnt represent the kind of judaism you believe in, but by your admission you left a while ago. so you really have no idea what kind of jews daven there now. i daven there now, my friends daven there now. families that i know who are extremely sincere daven there. baalei teshuva daven there. families and people taken in by the shul daven there. people who have gotten married through the shul daven there. people who now learn more than they ever have in their lives daven there.
with all due respect you know nothing of the shul you left. so please…dont claim you do.
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