Tension based on spouse's change in tznius

isnt the halacha that if a wife stops covering her hair, her husband should divorce her? so if it is even a worse aveira (like shabbos or kashrus) wouldnt it logically mean he certainly should not tolerate it?

“Really a case for divorce?”

Not according to many contemporary poskim. The fact is that there ARE a few opinions that haircovering is minhag not halachah.

????? ???

???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???

?? ???

?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????

?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????

?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????

??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???

????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??????:

“I thought covering hair is a Halacha”

According to the overwhelming majority of sources, it is. It is a machloket whether it is d’oraita or d’rabbanan and among rishonim the d’rabbanans have a majority. There are a very small number of Acharonim who say that it is minhag.

What kinds of haircoverings are permitted (i.e. are wigs ok?), and how much hair must be covered, is a real machloket. My wife decides to be machmir in both areas; she wears hats and scarves that cover everything. I had the sense to keep out of her decision-making process. 😉

Charliehall, stop bringing up far-off shittos. One can find those on many shailos. The Gemora states explicitly that if a wife does cover her hair, the husband should divorce her.

Harri, the divorce applies to the aveiros that could affect the husband. If she dresses not tzniusdic, we are worried it may come to worse things r”l. Still even about other aveiros, he should be moche.

“The Gemora states explicitly that if a wife does cover her hair, the husband should divorce her.”

Source? I was taught, with a source (which I don’t remember as it was years ago), that a man CAN (not should!) use that as a grounds for divorce. However if when they got married she didn’t cover then he cannot use that as a reason. If you can find a source I’ll retract this.

It really depends on what the standard is, and what the expectations where at the beginning.

If it’s something that is a basic, required halacha (such as hair covering in 99% of cases), it is likely different than something which is a chumrah (such as always wearing tights, or wearing sleeves down to your wrists.)

In any case, when it comes to matters of religion, a Rav should be consulted. If it’s causing tension, it’s helpful if the Rav is knowledgeable in counseling. If not, ask him for a recommendation for a good counselor who is knowledgeable in halacha, as it’s a main part of the tension.

My Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender shlita, told me the following when I was engaged (probably not word for word): “Don’t get too caught up in chumros! I once had a talmud who got married, and had an issue. His wife decided to be machmir and always cover her hair even when they were alone in the house, based on the Gemara that says it’s praiseworthy for the walls of a house to never see a woman’s hair. She even covered her hair at night, sleeping in bed. What was the issue? The husband thought his wife’s hair was beautiful, and enjoyed looking at it. Her always covering it bothered him. They came to me for advice, and I told her that being beautiful for your husband and maintaining Shalom Bayis is more important that not allowing your hair to be uncovered when alone with your husband in the house. It’s a bigger zchus to make your husband happy!”

Of course, this applies, as I said, in cases of chumrah, not basic halacha.

People do change over time, for better or worse. Part of the beauty of marriage is that you accept the person regardless of their changes, because you are now serving Hashem together.

Coming from ostensibly religious people, I am surprised at the attitude that if someone changes even slightly there is a possibility of dissolving the marriage. There are physical changes, there are emotional changes, and intellectual changes over time, is it so shocking that there will be spiritual changes too?

DaMoshe, I’ll bet none of their sons became Kohen Gadol.

Torah

Theres no beauty in a spouse becoming further from Hashem and then being stuck in a situation where you must tolerate this. I think it’s actually not only a betrayal of Hashem but a betrayal of your spouse because your spouse married someone who was looking to grow spiritually and here you went and did the reverse and are causing a rift in the marriage. I also think that if one member wants to be frummer and it won’t affect the marriage as a whole the other spouse has no say in the matter on the other hand if it will be a change that will affect the family as a unit and will affect your spouse you must discuss it and get his or her approval first.

1. I know people change. But deliberate changes that will affect the marriage must be discussed.

2. Its not controlling when both sides have to ask each other that’s called a relationship. No side will go ahead and do something drastic without discussing with the other first. Controlling is only when its one sided. You didn’t read my post carefully enough.

3. In a healthy relationship things are discussed and people ddon’t act rashly and make big decisions with disregard to the rest of the family. Yes I think in a healthy relationship you get permission from your spouse before making big changes. For example if the husband used to always be home at night to help out do home work with kids and what not and now he decides he wants to learn with a chavrusa every night during those hours it may not be the right thing to do and a wife has a right to say I’m a person too and I need your help in the house and without it I will collapse. Don’t you agree? Or do you think people can just do what they want and kill their marriages for Hashem (which He definitely doesn’t want in most cases)?

4. Betrayal is betrayal whether it’s deliberate or not. When someone becomes less observant usually it is a conscious decision. A man will consciously decide to stop going to minyan the woman will consciously decide she wants to start dressing differently or other changes. Humans make changes with thouht we aren’t robots. Yes one time by accident a woman can wear something too short. But ifa trend starts tthat’s a decision. Missing minyan once n a while can happen. Once it’s once a week or so it’s a trend. That’s no accident.

Kissui harosh is very important, obviously. If a wife reduced her tzniut standards, than al pi din, that’s a dealbreaker. If a wife increases her level of tzniut to the point where a husband is not attracted to her, than that is a problem requiring pastoral and marital counseling.

Agree with Torah.

WIY: I’m particularly intrigued that you assume that one spouse becoming less frum will always negatively affect the marriage, but that becoming more frum will usually not. In both scenarios you end up with a mismatch, so why do you assume a difference?

One other thing, is it really good to get a divorce and all that entails just for someone moving up, or down, the ladder WHILE still being frum, just not as frum as you want?

I assume most people mare with the intent to grow. Not stay the same or get worth.

I assume most people discuss that while dating. If they don’t, they are retards anyway so who cares what they do.

However when making a personal change that will affect your spouse I agree that it must be done with his or her permission.

Permission? You don’t need permission in a marriage. There are no veto’s. You need to talk about things and take one another’s interest into account.

And you make it sound like these are big bold decisions. Like the guy comes home from work one day and says from now on he is only going to shul on shabbos. Or she comes home one day, rips her sheitel off and says she is never wearing it again. That isn’t how life works.

mdd,

If the wife suddenly starts wearing denim is that really a reason to divorce, even if it’s “less” frum than you are/were?

I also imagine that many of the people saying to get divorced for any violation is not/has not been married.

Truthsharer, “denim” is no violation at all. I do not hold of that shvere chumra. I was talking about the violation of the minimum standards of tznius — wearing short skirts, low necklines etc.

Yehudahyonah, the Gemoarah does not say it is an absolute requirement for a mother of any Kohen Gadol. It just says it is a zechus to get there.”

We have had this discussion numerous times. I never read the Gemorah, I only learned this story in Yeshivah. It was the woman HERSELF who in RESPONSE to being asked why she merited to have so many sons who were kohanim gedolim, stated that it was due to the walls of her house never seeing her hair uncovered. That was HER belief. Did Hashem Tell her so, or did she make an assumption about something?

The Gemorah retells this maaseh to teach us about the great importance of tznius, yes, but IS what she said mamesh Halacha? I was not taught that it was. And perhaps she was mistaken in her belief in cause and effect. Hashem does not require a woman who is frum and ehrliche to cover her hair in the privacy of her home when alone with her husband (unless he is making a bracha). It is not meritorious for a woman to deny her husband the pleasure of seeing her hair, especially when it is ONLY permissible to him above all other males. It is not only a chumrah, but one which can cause marital discord, unless both husband and wife are on the same page about it.

BTW, we have been over this again and again. The story of Kimchis is well-known. But no one here has ever been able to prove to me that the story is meant to be taken as an Halachic imperative, but rather as a lesson of value.

Oomis, you are right — Kimchis’s behavior is not required al pi Halochah. A woman is not allowed to do it against her husband’s will (PBA, do you hear?). But she was right — Chazal agree that it was in the zechus of that chumrah that she merited what she did.