Thank You President Joe and VP Harris

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  • #1954799
    jackk
    Participant

    Many Jews will benefit tremendously from the $1,400 direct payment to individuals (for many , this is already $2,800), extended expanded unemployment benefits, food stamp increase, expanded child tax credit, small business grants, education funding, unpaid rent aid, and COVID-19 funding (including for COVID-19 vaccines, testing, and contact tracing) and other healthcare-related funding.

    This was also a phenomenal win for putting America and the American people first.

    Not a single republican in the house or senate voted for the American Rescue Plan. For them – America will always be last.

    Foremost , we thank Hashem for getting this bill passed.

    It will go back to the House and then Biden’s desk and be signed into law.

    וְיוֹסֵ֗ף ה֚וּא הַשַּׁלִּ֣יט עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ ה֥וּא הַמַּשְׁבִּ֖יר לְכָל־עַ֣ם הָאָ֑רֶץ

    PS: This is a first reminder for all those who voted for Trump out of Hakoras Hatov, that you will be voting Democratic in 3 1/2 years.

    #1954805
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Trump was in favor of the $2000 stimulus payment

    #1954810
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Jackk, the reason no GOP voted for it is because in the great tradition of is former boss Obama he refused to negotiate with the GOP, so much for the bipartisan drivel we heard so much from el presidente

    #1954811
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1954813
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was never about Trump. It was about the Senate.

    That’s probably why the two seats in Georgia went to Democrats – because it’s hard to not vote for someone who you know will deliver $1400 per family member to you.

    The GOP voted on principle, because you can’t keep giving away endless $. That cost them the Senate.

    I won’t be giving back the money they send me, but I really don’t know that the stimulus giveaway is a good move in the long run.

    #1954824
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >PS: This is a first reminder for all those who voted for Trump out of Hakoras Hatov, that you will be voting Democratic in 3 1/2 years.<

    They have Hakoras Hatov for the things he has done for the jews specifically.

    Also I think it’s wrong to vote for a candidate because he gives you cash. That would turn politics into a pay-for-votes game.

    #1954828
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They have Hakoras Hatov for the things he has done for the jews specifically.

    Also true.

    All in all, the OP makes a very weak point.

    #1954832
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Common
    You post a lie,
    President Biden had 10 Republican Senators into the White House to discuss/negotiate the bill. They weren’t interested in what 70+ percent of the American People wanted.

    Those 10 are 20% of the Republican Senators…………..
    All are afraid of the trouble Trump may cause come reelection time

    #1954843
    follick2
    Participant

    For a family with 6 children, with a father working as a rebbe in school, and a stay at home mother, this bill is worth around $20,000. With the $1400/person stimulus payment, the expanded child tax credit and expanded EIC payments. Not to mention making ACA health insurance cheaper.

    Circumstances vary, but this will be a huge infusion of cash into many heimish communities, especially given how it is particularly beneficial for large families.

    #1954844
    robertw
    Participant

    Many families in need will benefit from the stimulus.
    There is however no such thing as free handouts.
    The government will need to fund the stimulus whether in the form of cutting back on funding for certain services, increasing taxes,etc.

    #1954846

    follick2, so you will increase dependency of your community on welfare payments and hope that this will last?

    Not exactly a direct comparison, but I see a lesson here: when a new PM Menachem Begin offered full subsidy to yeshivot, R Schach advised against taking it. His reasoning: yeshivot will come to fully rely on government funds, and when a new government comes and reduces subsidies, they will go bankrupt.

    Similarly here, relying on government to support you because you are poor will keep you poor for the time being. People who could have paid your Rebbe directly will have less omney too. Then, when someone else’s money will run out, you will not be able to support yourself.

    #1954847
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Yes, Trump wanted to look good by suggesting the idea of $2000 payment with conditions of investigating voter fraud and provide liability protection for big tech companies that he knew the Democrats will not agree to.

    #1954854
    Health
    Participant

    Robertw -“increasing taxes”

    Even though I personally will benefit, but it isn’t Moral!
    They love to take other people’s money, in the form of Taxes, that will make them popular.

    #1954860
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @CT Lawyer, the 10 Senators who Biden met with offered a middle of the road more moderate option without the insane add ons that the Democrat bill had and they were promptly shown the door.

    #1954877

    common – indeed. That proposal covered $600B, so at least $1.3T of the bill is partisan payout.

    I wonder whether those who support these $1.3T for policy or political reasons are OK with the policy making via “emergency funding”. Anyone concerned about the integrity of the system? ends justify the means?

    #1954918
    smerel
    Participant

    Even though I will benefit I remain opposed and think it is a VERY bad idea.

    Even assuming the predictions of inflation and other problems this will cause don’t pan out these welfare programs have a terribly destructive impact on the people on it.

    I’m an accountant. People tell me that they would love to work but can’t afford to ALL THE TIME!!!

    Or as some people put in “work is a luxury that I can’t afford…”

    Even worse I used to work at inner city tax preparation place. These single women used to tell me point blank that they had their multiple children to an equal number of unknown fathers only because of the lifetime government support they would get for them

    #1954934
    EmEmC
    Participant

    ViNa Al Tatzricheinu, Hashem Elokeinu Lo Liydai Matnas Basar Vidam….

    Perhaps the OP doesnt eat bread.

    #1954935

    smerel >> assuming the predictions of inflation and other problems this will cause don’t pan out

    it does not matter what will be exact path that borrowed money take. The money has to come from somewhere.

    Economy is a complicated thing, so it is easy to develop a magical view – yes, we can borrow, but then we have new means to control inflation, etc, etc. If there is a magical way to print money for nothing, then print this money to return them to the rightful owners (aka as tax cuts) or save this capability for the next “unexpected” event. If some insist on new or changing social programs – fine, just have a public discussion about it rather than running a candidate that does not say anything and then pretend it is “emergency spending”.

    #1955020
    bored guy
    Participant

    i don’t want any money. this is 10% of our gdp.
    there will be huge inflation.
    and who do you think is paying all this money? all of us in our taxes.
    the only people who can hold these politicians accountable is us the people with our votes.
    and we will hold them accountable for ruining our country.

    #1955030
    charliehall
    Participant

    There was no inflation with Trump’s huge tax cut for the wealthy. Or the larger first COVID relief bill. Or the much larger printing of money by the Fed to prop up the stock market. It is about time normal folks get some benefit from the printing of money.

    The child tax credit has long been a Republican priority. But when a Democrat proposes it the Republicans all vote against it. The Republicans have no principles.

    #1955041

    I have a great idea, why don’t we just give 1,000,000 stimulus to everyone? Let’s even give the “undocumented” immigrants! Heck, let’s just give the whole world!! Best idea everrr!! In all seriousness, why don’t we discuss the other things included in the bill, and why it has nothing to do with “rescuing america”, and everything to do with promoting the democrat agenda?

    #1955042

    charlie – first COVID bill was smaller and it was during an actual emergency. It might have been better if it were targeted, but there was no time to do that. It achieved the goal. Current bill is developed after month of careful planning and the emergency is not there. You know that and post the opposite for some reason I can not fathom.

    #1955064
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    $1400 even if given to every single US citizen (about 328M) comes to about 0.46 Trillion. So, that still leaves over about 1.44 Trillion dollars! I haven’t looked into the details of the bill at all, and I am assuming that obviously a decent chunk of that is to go towards relief for stores and renters etc.

    But still, 1.44 Trillion after every citizen gets their pay-out is a tremendous amount and I shudder to think what portion of that amount is just bloat for the politicians to use to fund their side agendas under the cover of ‘Covid relief’.

    #1955118
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why did no one questioned the Trump tax cuts for the rich which increased the deficit tremendously?

    #1955119
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why did no one question the Trump tax cuts for the rich which increased the deficit tremendously?

    #1955125
    charliehall
    Participant

    “it isn’t Moral!”

    Taxes are not only mutar they are mandated by the Torah and the Rabbis. See what Rambam says about what happens to people who don’t pay their taxes.

    #1955129
    charliehall
    Participant

    Never in the past 40 years would I have thought I would see a Democratic Congress vote to spend $2.75 billion on aid to non-public schools, and to have every single Republican vote against it. It has been almost a half century since there has been significant Democratic support for aid to non-public schools in large number.

    #1955147
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    Never in the past 40 years would I have thought I would see a Democratic Congress vote to spend $2.75 billion on aid to non-public schools, and to have every single Republican vote against it. It has been almost a half century since there has been significant Democratic support for aid to non-public schools in large number.

    Wow, that is some a way of looking at reality.
    So if a bill were to be passed that gives one million towards a border wall and two billion to funding abortions you would be surprised when ‘Trumpies’ vote against it.
    Interesting.

    #1955209
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“Taxes are not only mutar they are mandated by the Torah and the Rabbis. See what Rambam says about what happens to people who don’t pay their taxes.”

    And what does the Torah say about a government that Levies Immoral Taxes?!?
    Either you know very little Torah or you’re trying to Manipulate E/O!

    #1955225
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Many jews also failed their means test along with 17 millions of Americans.

    #1955230
    bored guy
    Participant

    yes borrow money and make younger people like me pay it back.
    McConnell said pretty clearly how there never was so much spending in the history of the country.
    the economy is only down a few hundred billion dollars and this bill is triple that.
    a tax break is you keeping money you earned, stimulus check is money for sleeping in your moms basement with Cheetos dust on your fingers, basically grade a window lickers.

    #1955237
    smerel
    Participant

    <i>Taxes are not only mutar they are mandated by the Torah and the Rabbis. See what Rambam says about what happens to people who don’t pay their taxes.</i>

    And see what the Gemorah says about politicians who stay in office by taking money from one person to give other people to gain the recipients support. And what the Gemorah says about the non-Jewish mindset that forcibly taking money from the rich to give to the poor is “chesed”

    And see the gemorah about how you can not tax people for things they have no personal benefit from.
    And see te Rishnoiom about what measures were in place ot make sure the 99% doesn’t use ttheir power of mmajority to gang up on the one percent and make them pay for who knows what

    #1955246

    Reb e, mainly because the Trump tax cut wasnt just for the wealthy, and it didnt increase the deficit tremendously…
    Charlie, we’re not talking about not paying taxes, we’re talking about implementing them in the first place…besides, there’s a difference between taxes given to the government where they use it for security, roads, ect, and taxes where they’re given to those who figure its just not worth working based on what they can get if they dont work; to abortion programs, to gender studies… Im not saying im against aiding those who need help, but the l’fi the torah, you are supposed to give between 10-20%, and even thats not technically mandated. The taxes that some democrat governments impose is ridiculous. Doesnt even help those who receive the money, just makes them dependent on the government. Which is what democrats want, I guess…

    #1955262
    bored guy
    Participant

    i love these people “there’s no inflation”.
    really?! there’s no inflation??!!!
    so why are prices keep going up?
    in 1980 a gallon of milk cost a dollar.
    everything is going up clothing, cars, houses.
    just google inflation numbers.

    #1955417

    Charlie, $2.7B in private school money from D-s is indeed remarkable

    to compare, 2020 bill had $42B for schools,
    of K-12, 70 percent went to public schools and 30 percent went to private or charter schools

    here are some items in the bill, as reported by covidmoneytracker:
    Expand Child Tax Credit from $2,000 to $3,000 ($3,600 for children under age 6) and make it fully refundable for one year $110 billion
    Expand Earned Income Tax Credit to childless adults for one year, tripling the credit, and include those aged 19-24 and over 65. Permanently allow recipients to have more investment income and expand the EITC in territories $23 billion
    [ 2 policies above – for children for childless people, basicly to anyone]

    Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules $58 billion
    Expand Affordable Care Act subsidies by reducing the maximum cost of insurance plans $34 billion
    Increase base Medicaid match to states that newly expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act $16 billion
    Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years $9 billion [no breakdown between these 2 groups 🙂

    #1955482
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Trump tax cuts should be repealed somewhat to pay for the COVID relief. It did not affect the economy to invest in capital enhancements by increasing jobs but used for stock buy back.

    #1955649
    Participant
    Participant

    I don’t get the “it causes inflation” argument. of course it will cause inflation. what’s so terrible? in essence they want to even the playing 6field between those who worked during the pandemic–essential workers–and those that didn’t. the easiest way to do it is to print money and give it to everyone. the decrease in value of the dollar is a replacement of the tax they otherwise would have taken from the working class to give to the unemployed.

    not commenting on whether it’s moral, well thought out, or anything else. just that I don’t see the inflation argument.

    #1955738
    bored guy
    Participant

    smerel please give sources for all your gemeras

    #1955744
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Participant, what are the poor going to gain by getting devalued money because of inflation who don’t pay taxes as they have no jobs?

    #1955753

    RebE: It did not affect the economy to invest in capital enhancements by increasing jobs but used for stock buy back.

    Look, I think we need to be humble here. I am not an economist, and possibly you are none also. And even if we were, “best of the economists to Gehinom” ^BS^BS, I mean, “predicted 10 out of last 5 recessions”. So, any smart economist can convince us with some magical thinking about “no inflation”, “just buying back stock”,”invest in the future”. We have no idea whether this arguments are true or they simply highlight one part of the picture, while ignoring another, on purpose or not.

    So, I am always trying to look at simplest fundamentals: when you “tax the rich” in US, you forcibly take money from those who earned it, mostly thru business, rather than just inheritance, and give it to someone else who (a) needs it, (b) is not so productive. So, you want to take as little as possible and also give it to the right people who need it with right incentives.

    With that said, Trump’s policies achieved improved employment for many disadvantaged groups – that is better help than welfare [omit nonsense that improvement was at the same rate as during Obama – Obama’s rate was from peak of unemployment to good economy 2 times longer than usual, and worse if you count broader measures due to many people going off-market, while Trump took it from nominally good employment to below “natural rate” of unemployment and into pockets of long-term minority unemployment. Just to illustrate the idea – decreasing unemployment from 10% to 8% is not very helpful, but from, say 2% to 0% would be a miracle].

    So, now, government is taking a big chunk of money (and we’ll pay for that somehow, of course) and starts giving them away to all kind of interest groups, despite a diminished need for help. How is that good? Why would a long-term senator Biden is better in “investing” money than all businessmen he is taking them from. If he was “on the wrong side of every issue” in foreign policy (al pi Bob Gates), do you think he is better at domestic?

    #1955887
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The rich do not grow the economy, if they don’t do capital investment to provide jobs. The multiplying effect has to take over. How many yachts, airplanes, cars and houses, not consumed, can one need? Consumption comes from the middle class and the poor, if provided money.
    Economy = Consumption plus Investment plus Government Spending

    #1955906

    RebE: The rich do not grow the economy, if they don’t do capital investment to provide jobs.

    Agreed. And, presumably, that is what they do. You are quoting someone who tries to convince you that “at this moment”, rich are not using their money productively (buybacks?!) – and thus we should take it from them and do better. I know Hashem decides who is rich, but I don’t think he delegated this to the federal government.

    Either this is “partially correct” information – do we fully know where money goes – or, for some reason, investors temporarily are not investing. Maybe they feel that it is too risky or there is less incentive due to anticipated taxes, or there are less taxes in other countries. Either way, it is either a temporary rational decision, or something that can be fixed by better economic policies. For example, Obama was threatening companies that moved headquarters from US with no effect, Trump reduced corp taxes and companies came back.

    #1955918
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As a reforming economist, I think it is fair to say that in the current environment, you could justify just about any economic program or government policy by manipulating the discount rate plugged into your economic model. That is the case whether you are debating the “social cost of carbon” in energy related investments or the “savings rate” in allocating stimulus funds across income groups. At a time of sustained historically low or zero interest rates, the absence of significant discounting of future cash flows is the “new math” of public policy. Even this AM, with the Feds about to drop $2 trillion in new cash from helicopters, the inflation rate is flat and gold prices relatively flat.

    #1955921
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The rich use more government infrastructure, so they need to pay more taxes.

    #1956128
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The stimulus will jump start the economy by investing in capital enhancements thereby creating more jobs and increasing the number of tax payers and paying off tbe increase in the deficit.

    #1956198
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >The rich use more government infrastructure, so they need to pay more taxes.<

    They also create more jobs and boost the economy.

    #1956281
    catch yourself
    Participant

    Why not list all the features of the new law?

    How much money is in there to bail out cities like San Francisco from mismanagement that predated the pandemic? How much money is in there to provide special treatment to unions and other Democrat special-interest groups? How much money is in there to provide special perks to government employees? How much of the nearly $2T in this emergency spending measure is actually scheduled to be spent this year?

    70% of the American people supposedly support this legislation, including a clear majority of voters registered to both parties. Yet the Republicans in Congress unanimously opposed it. Perhaps the truth is that a lot more of the American people oppose the real details of this law. I wonder exactly how the poll questions were phrased.

    #1956284
    smerel
    Participant

    To put things in perspective.

    The stimulus is costing about six thousand dollars for every single man, women and child in the United States. The most anyone is getting is 3600.

    And next year when the Democrats will be pushing to make some of the provisions permanent (you saw it here first) all the talk about what this stimulus is going to do for the economy will either be out the window, or they will point at the economic improvement from opening up businesses post corona as “proof” that the stimulus did such a great job so we nee more of it

    #1956303
    smerel
    Participant

    If the stimulus was really about putting money into the economy and helping the disadvantaged it would do something for struggling seniors. They are the least capable of helping themselves and it the biggest need of help. How $3,600 per senior making less than $80,000 instead of per child?

    But why would the Democrats care about or help seniors? After a lifetime of life experience they no longer vote for Democrats and anyone the Democrats focus on the younger voters. For the seniors the Democrats focus is on legalizing euthanasia and getting rid of them

    #1956476

    RebE >> The rich use more government infrastructure, so they need to pay more taxes.

    I agree, this is a great way to estimate. Well, rich would pay more in taxes even without progressive taxation, just as a percentage of their higher income. What do we want from the government? some protection is per person – and that should be a “hetzi shekel”, same amount for everyone. Life has the same value. Other protection is for property – and that should be progressive: the more property someone has, the more he benefits from the government.

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