December 6, 2011 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #601021BrainwasheDParticipant
Someone told a relative of mine that she was “davening to the Rebbe” for her. Assuming my relative’s poseik held that this was a violation of the 5th ikkar of the Rambam, if not Avodah Zarah, is she allowed to thank this woman?
Again, this isn’t a debate about Chabad. It’s simply a question about thanking someone for an aveirah done on your behalf.December 6, 2011 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #840938
never thank someone for doing an aveirah on your “Behalf”. THen you are m’chazaking it. Maybe rather, point it out that we are not allowed to daven TO a person and prayers should be directed to Hashem.
Since you opened a discussion here, may I ask a question. And please nobody get offended….is Lubavitch today considered Avodas Zarah? I am asking because there seems to be this trend within it of praying to the Rebbe and looking for answers from him and believing he was/is Moshiach.December 6, 2011 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #840939skiaddictMember
Right…. now were gonna find out who the loobies are..December 6, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #840940
Praying to the Rebbe is Avodah Zarah. Believing he is Mashiach is probably not, though people have other issues with it.
Can we close this thread now?December 7, 2011 12:30 am at 12:30 am #840941oot for lifeParticipant
For the sake of Shalom let’s take this in a different direction. Someone brings you food on Shabbos and there is no eiruv, do you use it? Do you tell them there is no eiruv? I think the best way is not to thank them, just explain what the halacha is in a seicheldica way.December 7, 2011 2:00 am at 2:00 am #840942
Oot for life: There are Halachos about Ma’aseh Shabbos.December 7, 2011 2:05 am at 2:05 am #840943
skiaddict whats a loobie? Since you’re so knowledgable.December 7, 2011 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #840944
I found this shaila so interesting that I asked the original question to my own rav. He said that while he wouldn’t tell someone to daven to the Rebbe, we can be dan the woman lekaf zechus and assume she was just asking the Rebbe to be a meilitz yosher to Hashem, not that ch”v the Rebbe runs the world instead of Hashem. So this person can be thanked, as it’s not pashut they did an aveirah. However, if someone did a vadai aveirah, they can’t be thanked. Years ago, I helped a feledgeling Orthodox shul that was located in the basement of a Reform Temple (yes, the shailos were asked in it was cleared by poskim). I went to use the facilities. A Reform kid came out of the bathroom and shut the lights. He saw me coming and turned them back on. I have no right to thank him. And when you hold a tinok up to the light and he, on his/her own volition, turns it off/on, you are not allowed to show any sign of happiness to the kid.December 7, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #840945BTGuyParticipant
I dont think the person is doing an aveirah on ‘your behalf’, meaning it is something you asked them to do.
We can be only so responsible for where any one person is holding, especially when it comes to how they observe Judaism. All of us have to stand before Hashem for doing wrong on Yom Kippur. I would say if they dont do something right or dont understand what they are doing wrong, but they intended to do something nice, then they deserve a “thank you”.
If there is a way to enlighten the person a little, then do so. But you know that matter is a very delicate thing to take on in this case since the person thinks they are observing properly.
Or tell them how you hold and the way they are holding is not how you hold and that you feel their efforts would be more effective by doing things differently. But again, this is a touchy thing to do.
I can appreciate your predicament. I have heard it said many times, that if someone does something wrong, but their rebbe told them it is ok to do, even though it is wrong, the very fact that they are listening to their rebbe, is a mitzvah for them. This presents interesting possibilities in this case that a rabbi has to address for you.December 7, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #840946nitpickerParticipant
amazing that someone could twist the woman’s words around in this way. and consider doing so being dun lcaf zchus.
I actually heard a radio program (over a year ago at least)
in which a woman from eretz yisroel described a minor life problem she had, and how she stood before the rebbes picture and began,
“Oh rebbe, I ….”.
I am not making this up.
The rebbe answered her prayer and appeared before her school age daughter and gave her a dollar and some advice, after which he disappeared! not avodah zara?!!!!!
of course that doesn’t say anything about the woman in your story,
but her words are bad enough. No practicing Jew would ever use such an expression and mean he should be a melitz yosher.December 7, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #840947mik5Participant
Imagine if your house is on fire on Shabbos c”v and you pasken that it is assur to put out the fire in order to save your property. However, another Yid puts out the fire and saves your property. Do you thank him?
Saying “thank you” is the polite thing to do. If I were the person, I would say: “Thank you for your concern and time, but don’t you think that it is better to pray to G-d than to the Rebbe?”December 7, 2011 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #840948
To sort of agree with nitpicker, 20 years ago Jothar’s Rabbi would have been correct. I think most people have lost Ne’emanus on this issue. It is not for us to judge whether she did it as a Malitz Yosher or not (we certainly hope she did), but unless we know for a fact that she did I wouldn’t encourage it.December 7, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #840949apushatayidParticipant
I dont think it is possible to have an “aveirah done on your behalf”, we have a concept ain shliach lidvar aveirah.December 7, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #840950
The shaila is not a shaila of if you get the aveirah, as ain sheliach ledvar aveirah. The shaila is if you should thank the person.
My own svara yeshara is like BrainwasheD, nitpicker and Sam2, but I am mevatel my daas to my rav.December 7, 2011 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #840951apushatayidParticipant
Thank them for thinking of you.December 9, 2011 5:43 am at 5:43 am #840952
jothar- why didn’t you sat to the kid “shabbos!”?December 9, 2011 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #840954
jothar: if you hold your child to the light and he turns it on, you have just been Over the Issur d’Oraisa of ????? ??? whether or not you thank him!December 9, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #840955
Mik5: You would thank a Jew for becoming Chayav Missah just to save your property? I’d rather lose the property. I wouldn’t thank someone for it.December 9, 2011 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #840956
hello99, shkoyach. No such issur, as long as the child is below a certain age and only has a maaseh kof. However, you can’t direct his movements or indicate to him what he/she should be doing.
One thing the OP proves is that this idea of davening to the Rebbe isn’t a rumor…it’s a fact.December 11, 2011 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #840957December 12, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #840958
The halacha is as you said- one cannot command a katan to do a melacha for an adult, but one is not mechuyav to be be mafrish a katan below the age of chinuch from doing a melacha.
You claim that a 1-year-old has the daas to understand a father’s ratzon is ee efshar leholmo unless your son is an ilui atzum. The halacha is a child can sleep in his parents’ room until 18 months old. Clearly, a child until that age has no da’as whatsoever. A 4-year-old is below the age of chinuch, but would understand what his parents want. My toddler has no clue what I want if I don’t tell him directly. Rabbi Simcha Buni Cohen brings down this halacha on pages 66-67 of his sefer “Children in Halacha” and writes it as a practical halacha, keneged your Daas Torah. He also brings down that, in cases of great need (but not stam), one may instruct a child to do something if it is for the child’s benefit. Not that I would rely on this unless I asked my rav, but it’s not pashhut to call it a melacha deoraysah in the case of a shul where the child benefits from it as well.
Here is Rabbi Zev Leff on the same point:
I will also add that in my house, all bulbs are fluorescent and not incandescent.
How old was the child in the shul? Was the power just for fluorescent lights or also for incandescent bulbs? Was it pashut that his child understood what it was for? Did the child benefit from the lights being on?December 12, 2011 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #840959
The Mishna Shabbos 121a states that if ones house is burning down on Shabbos and a Goy wishes to extinguish it for you, you need not stop him. However, a Jewish child must be stopped. The Gemara explains that the Goy does it for his own interest, but the child does it for his father.
From the context, it is obvious that there is no Heter if the child will benefit as well. The source in the Mishna and Shulchan Aruch is his house burning down too, and nevertheless it is forbidden to let him extinguish the fire despite the extreme loss of money and discomfort.
In conclusion, I cannot take responsibility for the words of Rabbi Cohen and Rabbi Leff, but the Gemara, Shulchan Aruch and basic Poskim all rule that any child old enough to understand when his parents are happy with his actions or upset, is forbidden Min HaTorah to do Melacha for the parent even without an explicit instruction or thanks. I think that any parent will agree this occurs well before the second birthday.December 12, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #840960
The heter mentioned was for a derabanan where it benefits the child, in cases of great necessity, eg telling a child to shut off a light.
I am at work now so I will need to get back to you on the halacha of a kid in the same room as the parents. Iy”h tonight I will check it up. I didn’t make this up though.
Fluorescent light bulbs- my rav paskens they are different than incandescent bulbs, and you can tell a goy to turn them on or off on shabbos, as opposed to a fluorescent bulb. He did his research, and he concludes differently. He’s not am “am ha’aretz” rav. His specialty is halacha and metzius.
Yes, my child of 18 months knows if I’m happy or upset with his actions. I wasn’t talking about encouraging him one way or the other. When he’s on his own, he spills things ,plays with phones, plays with light switches, makes noise, all without trying to please or upset me. It’s part of being a leibidikke child. It is clearly daas atzmo when he is near a switch or toy that makes noise. If your 18-month-old is obedient to you then I truly envy you. So yes, if he was three and my wife turned the light out, and he wanted to please me by turning it on, I would be mechuyav to stop him, even though he is under the age of chinuch. But if I hold him near the light and give no indication either way, then it is daas atzmo. I looked up the piskei teshuvos last night on siman 334, and he brings down a machlokes if you are mechuyav to be mafrish your katan below chinuch even when it is daas atzmo or by tinok she’ein lo daas klal.
He does bring a mishkenos yaakov that holds you are mechuyav to be mafrish a katan she’ein lo daas klal from doing an issur shabbos even tho it’s not a meleches machsheves.
That said, I was calling around last night after I read your post to find out what my own rav holds, and he holds like this, which is even more machmir than you- he holds is can NEVER be your own child, and if it’s someone else’s child it’s until the age of 2, and it can’t be a vadai he will turn it on. This is more machmir than Rabbi Simcha Bunim Cohen, who allows you to put a child right to the light, so if anyone has his number or can speak to him on this to get clarity, I would appreciate it. So yeah, I can’t rely on his sefer anymore as I must follow my own rov, but my own rav allows me to get the goytah from the building to turn off or on the the fluorescent lights so it’s a wash.
You are absolutely correct about a child of 3-4. At this point, I admit my ignorance. I studied these halachos but forgot them. I’m a balabos at work now and don’t have MB or SA-OC access. As the issur of being mazhir a gadol about a katan, the father did an aveirah beshogeig- he thought it was muttar. It is clearly assur for him to daven in the shul. Would it be muttar for everyone else in the shul as a shaas hadchak, or since the aveirah beshogeig was done for your benefit everyone would be mechuyav to leave the shul?December 12, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #840961
jother: “Fluorescent light bulbs- my rav paskens they are different than incandescent bulbs”
Would you mind asking your Rav the reason. According to my research, the cathode in a fluorescent lamp contains a filament heated between 1000 degrees Kelvin and 2500. I don’t doubt his knowledge, I would like to hear a reason to be lenient. BTW, Orchos Shabbos 16:7 also rules that they are Mavir due to the spark.
I’m glad we have narrowed our disagreement regarding using a young child. I think where we stand is that I only question your comment “But if I hold him near the light and give no indication either way, then it is daas atzmo”. I think that at 18 months a child would realize why you are holding him next to the switch. I don’t mind agreeing to disagree on this minor detail.
regarding Shul: since my opinion is that fluorescent lighting is d’Oraisa, there would be no grounds for leniency, even for the others.December 13, 2011 3:39 am at 3:39 am #840962
I lent my rav my copy of “Children in Halacha” in an attempt to get him to reverse his psak.
I will iy”h ask him about a fluorescent bulb tomorrow or Shabbos.
I asked him your case. He said there is room to be meikel for the rabbim in a case like yours, even if it was a shogeig of a deoraysa. The avaryan and his son would have to leave the shul, but there is room to be meikel for tzarchei Rabbim.
This is why I daven in a shul with a rav, and one well-versed in halacha at that. Othertise it’s ish hayashar be’einav ya’aseh.December 13, 2011 7:08 am at 7:08 am #840963YW Moderator-42Moderator
I was once somewhere on Shabbos and they were trying to get the baby to turn on the light that had gone out. The older sister saw what was going on and went and turned it on herself. We decided that even if we were technically allowed to use the baby, it shouldn’t be done if it will teach the older kid the wrong thing.December 13, 2011 7:09 am at 7:09 am #840964YW Moderator-42Moderator
Are mods allowed to approve posts that were posted on Shabbos?December 13, 2011 11:58 am at 11:58 am #840965jmj613Participant
Mod a big like on ur question!!!December 13, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #840966lolkatzMember
What kind of hypocritical person posts to a yeshivish site on Shabbos?
Delete all posts from Shabbos so there is no benefit to the sinner.December 13, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #840967
How do we even know all the posters are Jewish? What’s wrong with a Goy posting on Shabbos?December 15, 2011 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #840968
Jothar: just a reminder, we are awaiting your Rav’s explanation for fluorescents.December 16, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #840969
Correct. He was there yesterday but I was too wiped from shopping to hock him and get any kind of clarity. I will try again Friday night or motzaei shabbos kodesh. I do recall asking him or his son about this previously and being told it’s not true, but that’s vague and I want birur. So iy”h bli neder tonight or motzei shabbos kodesh.December 17, 2011 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #840970
I hope you see this in time. I don’t know why this would be “untrue”. The following is copied from Wikipedia:
The fundamental means for conversion of electrical energy into radiant energy in a fluorescent lamp relies on inelastic scattering of electrons. An incident electron collides with an atom in the gas. If the free electron has enough kinetic energy, it transfers energy to the atom’s outer electron, causing that electron to temporarily jump up to a higher energy level. The collision is ‘inelastic’ because a loss of kinetic energy occurs.
This higher energy state is unstable, and the atom will emit an ultraviolet photon as the atom’s electron reverts to a lower, more stable, energy level. Most of the photons that are released from the mercury atoms have wavelengths in the ultraviolet (UV) region of the spectrum, predominantly at wavelengths of 253.7 and 185 nanometers (nm). These are not visible to the human eye, so they must be converted into visible light. This is done by making use of fluorescence. Ultraviolet photons are absorbed by electrons in the atoms of the lamp’s interior fluorescent coating, causing a similar energy jump, then drop, with emission of a further photon. The photon that is emitted from this second interaction has a lower energy than the one that caused it. The chemicals that make up the phosphor are chosen so that these emitted photons are at wavelengths visible to the human eye. The difference in energy between the absorbed ultra-violet photon and the emitted visible light photon goes toward heating up the phosphor coating.
When the light is turned on, the electric power heats up the cathode enough for it to emit electrons (thermionic emission). These electrons collide with and ionize noble gas atoms inside the bulb surrounding the filament to form a plasma by the process of impact ionization. As a result of avalanche ionization, the conductivity of the ionized gas rapidly rises, allowing higher currents to flow through the lamp.
The fill gas helps determine the operating electrical characteristics of the lamp, but does not give off light itself. The fill gas effectively increases the distance that electrons travel through the tube, which allows an electron a greater chance of interacting with a mercury atom. Argon atoms, excited to a metastable state by impact of an electron, can impart this energy to a neutral mercury atom and ionize it, described as the Penning effect. This has the benefit of lowering the breakdown and operating voltage of the lamp, compared to other possible fill gases such as krypton.
Close-up of the cathodes of a germicidal lamp (an essentially similar design that uses no fluorescent phosphor, allowing the electrodes to be seen.)
A fluorescent lamp tube is filled with a gas containing low pressure mercury vapor and argon, xenon, neon, or krypton. The pressure inside the lamp is around 0.3% of atmospheric pressure. The inner surface of the bulb is coated with a fluorescent (and often slightly phosphorescent) coating made of varying blends of metallic and rare-earth phosphor salts. The bulb’s electrodes are typically made of coiled tungsten and usually referred to as cathodes because of their prime function of emitting electronsDecember 18, 2011 5:40 am at 5:40 am #840971
Hello99, the question is how hot does the metal get. I spoke to him Friday night, and he told me that the old bulbs had a heat element, but because that wasn’t the main part of the bulb it was a davar sh’eino miskaven, and therefore it would be assur for a Jew but you could ask a goy. He told me that today’s bulbs don’t get as hot, so he believes that it would only be a derabanan even for a Jew to turn it on. I will iy”h try doing my own research on this. It’s only bishul if it becomes red-hot like a filament. If it gets hot but doesn’t glow it’s not bishul.
I checked the dirshu M”b but nothing on the kids and holding them by light bulbs- I checked both 334 and 343.December 18, 2011 6:43 am at 6:43 am #840973
howstuffworks.com and other websites implied that today’s bulbs don’t use a hot filament as a starter anymore. They have something that works quickly to excite the gas and shuts off. Another webpage says today’s instant-on bulbs have the starter preheated, so turning it off and on just moves the circuit, so turning it on doesn’t generate the heat that early fluorescents did by turning it on. Where did you get the K temperature you quoted? I saw that for an incandescent tungsten filament, but not for a fluorescent starter.December 18, 2011 7:14 am at 7:14 am #840974
This link, page 7, says that on preheat, the contacts are heated to 1750 degrees for a few seconds. That said, this does NOT apply to newer bulbs. So as far as I can google, my rav is correct on this- newer bulbs do not use the preheat method.December 18, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #840975
Jothar: if the only issue was the starter used to heat the gas to the required temperature you would be correct on both points. It is both becoming obsolete and additionally incidental to the primary generation of light, and could potentially be termed Aino Mechavein.December 19, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #840976
If fluorescent bulbs operated at this temperature, why do many of them not work below 50F? And why can you put your hand on a fluorescent bulb without getting a burn?December 19, 2011 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #840978
Jothar: While the filament is very hot and generates electrons and visible light, the gas inside the bulb cannot conduct the electricity when it is below a certain temperature. That explains why some bulbs do not work outdoors in cold weather.
If you touch a straight fluorescent bulb near the ends, it is very hot to the touch. It is less hot than an incandescent bulb because the filament is shielded to protect the glass from blackening. Additionally, the heat can dissipate down the length of the bulb, unlike a rounded incandescent.December 20, 2011 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #840979
Jothar: are you there?December 21, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #840980
This topic requires more research than I can do during a work week. What I have been mevarer so far is that the filaments you refer to are the same ones used as the starter, in order to get the electricity to flow through gas. And not all hot cathodes are the same, and not all thermionic emissions are the same.In the interim I will trust my rav on this. That said, I have asked a frum friend who is on break from his doctorate and loves to tinker with a soldering gun and circuits to be mevarer the metzius for me. I will iy”h have more time over the weekend to do more reading on the topic. I will also report what my friend says. I have asked him to examine a cfl because those are the bulbs used today, until LED bulbs become practical.December 21, 2011 3:15 am at 3:15 am #840981
I also just submitted a query on gelighting.com. I did read through some of their catalog, and I see that the very small fluorescents still use preheat, but the bigger bulbs use the instant start, which don’t seem to need such high heat to start the ion flow. I didn’t mention any halachic nafka minas in the query in order to ensure mesiach lefi tumo.December 25, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #840982
Jothar: any update?January 2, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #840983
Jothar: any update?
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