October 23, 2009 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #590669A23Participant
Rabboisai, I would like to address a big issue I have recently noticed in the communities of Boro Park and Flatbush.
This past week, my car was in the shop and I have been taking the City Bus to go places and what I have seen is not an ideal situation. Our tyareh maidlech and bochurim, bnai Torah, who take public buses to travel (mostly to and from yeshiva), are mingling with elements that they should not be exposed to.
Crowded buses do not have mechitzas! Anyone who has taken these buses during rush hour would know that certain contact between the genders is unavoidable and yet the yeshivas are giving out free (city-subsidized) MetroCards to their talmidim. This is worse than giving them free movie tickets, because a movie at least is not real life.
Some might think that they’ve been on trains before during rush hour, but the bottom line is that the buses in BP and Flatbush are more tumedik than the B, D, F, or Q trains. Our bochurim intermingling with our girls is one thing. They know how to act and behave, but when public schools are on the same routes, there’s no telling what happens.
This is something that has flown under the radar for too long because, b’H many of the adults of our community have cars. Unfortunately, while we try desperately to protect our children inside the home, they are walking onto pritzus-mobiles every day. I don’t know what can be done about this terrible situation, but I think something needs to happen.October 23, 2009 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #665928AnonymousInactive
If they can’t take the bus, how are they supposed to get to and from yeshiva?October 23, 2009 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #665929
That is what he is asking. As he said, “I don’t know what can be done about this terrible situation, but I think something needs to happen.”October 24, 2009 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #665930starwolfMember
If, indeed, “They know how to act and behave”, then there should be no problem.
Otherwise, you have 2 solutions:
sequester them even more than you do now,
or subsidize alternative forms of transportation.October 25, 2009 1:41 am at 1:41 am #665932JotharMember
It’s definitely better to arrange alternative sources of transportation. I used to take the city bus to and from work, until I arranged rides. The rides are definitely better for my ruchnius.October 25, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #665933
Is the problem most pronounced in the morning, when the PS opens? Most Yeshivos and BY’s have different dismissal times than do the PS’s.
Jothar: You don’t drive?October 25, 2009 2:27 am at 2:27 am #665934hudMember
Ummmmm but no. It is not better to give a free movie stub (plus there is no seperate seating in a theater either!)…Public transportation isn’t the greatest thing but do you have a solution? That would be reasonably priced?…I’m all ears!October 25, 2009 3:17 am at 3:17 am #665936
yeah sure take a car service everyday for 30 bucks! what are they supposed to do, according to you buchrim should not be walking out in public since they might see a person of the other genderOctober 25, 2009 6:23 am at 6:23 am #665937
Any possibility of getting a private bus service?October 25, 2009 6:28 am at 6:28 am #665938yankdownunderMember
Perhaps separate busing needs to be provided by Yeshivas and BY Schools. This might cost some $’s, but at least the genders would not mix going and leaving.October 25, 2009 7:15 am at 7:15 am #665939bein_hasdorimParticipant
I can second this, I remember way back when I took the bus once past a
certain school, & i was sitting when these girls boarded from said school.
a goyishe one, filling up the whole bus. standing in front of myself & others.
I can’t elaborate, though what they were wearing wouldn’t be considered a skirt
on any planet, maybe a belt was more like it. this was my last time using this bus
route at that time (their school dismissal) this was in my day, I can only assume
it’s the same or worse today. I am a very down to earth person, on the ball type of guy & I was shocked. This is a real problem we face.October 25, 2009 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #665940
In NYC, Grades 6 and under can get school bus transportation, but all grades, 7 and up, can not, and must use public Transportation.
My sons yeshiva realize this is a big problem and really prefer the boys not use public transportaion. They offer a van service, at additional cost. Also, many mothers carpool.
Yank you don’t seem to understand how it works in the states. Some yeshivas do have their own private school buses and it is not an issue. Go to Williamsburg and Boro Park and see all the buses with the yeshivas name on the side. The parents pay extra to use that service.
The yeshivas also have the option to have the city pay for the childrens transportion to and from school, using the public transportation system which is free, which is great, but on the Ruchinus side, the adverts plastered all over the buses and trains are terrible and when the Public Schools get out, the kids are yelling obscenities, running, and fighting each other. I live on a block with a public school and do not like to be around when they get out.October 26, 2009 2:09 am at 2:09 am #665943
Only in NY would you worry that there isnt school transportation for all grades. In almost no other (outside tri-state) community is there state-supported transportation. Parents need to find ways for their kids to get to school. They can:
-learn to not associate with goyim and travel in groups of frum kids. they need to learn not to look and associate with those who you shouldnt be dealing with
– have a parent accompany the kids as a chaperon but this will not work out very easily. Parents work.
– have the PARENTS pay the school to arrange a private bus service. It should not be done by the state and it should be optional. If you cannot afford the service then you need to find alternative modes of transportation. No one should be forced to use it and no one should be forced to pay it. those who pay tuition can pay for this, but it is an EXTRA.October 26, 2009 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #665944WolfishMusingsParticipant
Am I the only one who thought the OP was being sarcastic and/or making an attempt at humor?
The WolfOctober 26, 2009 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #665945
does OP mean opening poster?
wolfish- you never can tell with some people/posters…October 26, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #665946WolfishMusingsParticipant
does OP mean opening poster?
The WolfOctober 26, 2009 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #665947Just-a-guyMember
The public bus problem described by the OP, is what I refer to as the “world problem.”October 26, 2009 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #665948SJSinNYCMember
Wolf, I think he was serious which is humorous in and of itself 🙂
Yes, everywhere adults and children are exposed to inappropriate dress/actions. We cannot cut out everything in our lives. It is just impossible.
…unless you home school and have groceries delivered. Then you never have to leave the house.October 26, 2009 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #665949
…unless you home school and have groceries delivered. Then you never have to leave the house.
And find a doctor who makes house calls.October 26, 2009 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #665950oomisParticipant
Wolf, I don’t think the OP was kidding. I think he or she might be a little unrealistic to think there is any type of solution to the “problem,” because our kids must learn to live in THIS world, no matter what their hashkafa may be. We cannot sequester our kids forever, and the only way they can strengthen themselves against the outside world, is to be innoculated with a little bit of it. If that means traveling in public transportation, so be it. The train transport of ONLY Jews, at one time in history, had far worse ramifications than standing on a bus with non-Jews, while trying to get to and from YeshivahOctober 26, 2009 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #665951
oomis1105: Very insightful!
When I first read the OP, I could relate to the issue, because I have children who travel that way. And on the first day he used the city bus, my son came home and said, “Mom, you should have heard some of the words being used on the bus! There was a bunch of kids talking really loud and whoa!…” Well, I began to re-think my decision to allow my children on the city bus.
But then, I thought again. Obviously, it was not the first time my son ever heard those words. Neither I nor my husband speak that way, yet my children are familiar with that type of phraseology. It seeps in, no matter how much you try to keep it out.
And yet, B”H, my children do not speak that way.
They have learned to deal with it in an appropriate way. They can be aware of it, hear it, and choose NOT to engage in the same behavior! They know they are different, and what they see and hear in the world out there just emphasizes that difference to them!
You know, I am more worried about what they learn and hear from their friends in Yeshiva than I am about what they hear on the city bus. Really, I mean it! C”V one of their friends convinces them that smoking is cool, or they decide that the guys who get drunk on Simchas Torah are cool. That is a much more likely scenario.
So my kids still travel the city bus, but now I’m OK with it. I have tried to educate them and continue to try to be mechanech my children to the best of my ability. And that, with Siyata D’Shmaya, is all I can do.October 26, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #665952Mayan_DvashParticipant
I recall that from 7th grade through High School we were required to come to Shachris in Yeshiva which started around 7:30. THis was strictly enforced.
;October 26, 2009 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #665953
BTW, as mentioned above by Mezonos Maven, Is the problem most pronounced in the morning, when the PS opens? Most Yeshivos and BY’s have different dismissal times than do the PS’s.
They do have different dismissal times and they also have different start times. PS usually begins at 8:15 – 8:30, while many Yeshivos start at 9:00. The older boys have to be there for minyan, usually earlier than PS start times. The older girls get out 4 – 4:30 while the older boys stay later than that, 5:45 or so, or even later, depending on the night.October 26, 2009 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #665954
NY Mom- why do the yeshivos start so late? Maybe they should all start at 8. This means traveling at around 7:30 or earlier so there would be a different crowd on the buses then. More commuters than public school children. Have all high schools, boys and girls, start at 8 or even 7:45. That way shachris will be said on time! Why do NY schools start so late- at 9? I have been in several communities and seen different schools. Many start at 8:30 or 8. Want to be different than the goyim? Start earlier, not later! I had to get up at 6 to get to school when I was in school. There was a public school nearby and the school was told that if they wanted to open, they had to start earlier than they were. why is NY so late????October 26, 2009 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #665955
havesomeseichel: I just found out the exact details at my sons’ Yeshiva, and I assume it is similar for other Yeshivas. Boys in 7th and 8th grade are required to be there for minyan at 7:30. They then have breakfast and begin learning bet. 8:45 and 9:00. I do not have HS kids yet, but I am assuming that their schedule is similar. Younger kids are allowed to travel on school bus transportation provided by the city, for them it is not an issue.
If the Yeshivos would start at 8 or 8:30 that would be the same time as the PS, 8:15 – 8:30. The Yeshivos are different. The point is they do, in general, travel at separate times than the PS kids. Also, PS kids get out at 2:30 – 3:00, so traveling home is NOT in conflict with PS dismissal for the boys or girls.October 27, 2009 4:16 am at 4:16 am #665957
blindfolds?October 27, 2009 5:30 am at 5:30 am #665958
Please note: If it’s as bad as you say; then it’s assur to davin or learn or talk in Torah on these buses. Same for subway trains.October 27, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #665959enlightenedjewMember
“Perhaps separate busing needs to be provided by Yeshivas and BY Schools. This might cost some $’s, but at least the genders would not mix going and leaving. “
As if tuition doesn’t cost enough $$$ in itself…October 27, 2009 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #665960JewessMember
These teenaged boys will grow up and they will be exposed to things worse than what they see on the bus.
Instead of making the bus or train taboo and not allowing them to go on it, it might be a better idea to teach your children self control.
Teach them that it is impolite to stare and teach them that sometimes they will come across things that are not appropriate to look at and when that happens they should remember that they are above that.
Teaching them to take charge of their actions will help them more in life than teaching them that everything is bad and that normal everyday things should be avoided.
You won’t be able to shelter them their whole life, and by not allowing them to go on the bus because they might see soemthing they shouldn’t will just cripple them.October 27, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #665961Jersey JewParticipant
This is nothing new and was a problem when I was taking the bus 35 years ago! Being a number of years removed from my teenage years I really wish the yeshivas and bais yaakovs are more up front with issues re yichid, n’giyah etc. They seem to think if they dont talk about it, thus NOT giving the bocherim / maydelach halochik guidance, there wont be a problem. When I have teenage guests they dont understand why they cant be here when I am not considered b’ir. This is not hard to teach in a yeshiva setting with proper hashkofos.October 27, 2009 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #665962komaMember
About visual exposure, things have really sunk in contrast to years ago. About inadvertent contact, Rav Moshe ruled it to be not a problem. Of course today, me must be frummer than Rav Moshe ztvgl.October 29, 2009 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #665963
I don’t know if anyone noticed, but on the home page, there was on alert to make sure to vote, because the Teacher’s Union want to eliminate funding for Bus Transportation to Private Schools. This would be a disaster. If parents have to pay for extra funding for transportation, it would be chaos. Please spread the word to vote, this Tuesday!! I just wish it would say who to vote for. Anyone know??!!October 29, 2009 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #665964
Also, tell your schools to make a copy of this alert and hand it out to the entire parent body and make sure they vote. The Teacher’s Union says this will save them 54. million dollars!! If this important service is eliminated, guess who will have to pay up??!!October 29, 2009 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #665965
Mazal: I think the main idea is just to VOTE – and not even for whom you vote.
If the electorate sees the Orthodox Jewish community as a strong constituency, they will take our demands/needs seriously. There are so many frum people who do not vote, it is terrible! It really weakens our political power and the influence we have on any issue! And especially one like funding for our schools, which is so important to us!October 29, 2009 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #665966
jewess, nicely saidOctober 29, 2009 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #665967
Someone once went to reb moshe and told him has to take a train everyday and he wanted to know what to do about all the pritsus, reb moshe told him to learn and that should help him not be focused on that stuff. About a week later he came back and said to reb moshe that its not working, reb moshe said he should try even harder to learn and forget all the stuff thats around him. A couple of days later he comes back again saying that its not helping, reb moshe pulls out a business card from his pocket for a psychiatrist.October 29, 2009 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #665968
pookie, what is the source of that bubbe maaisa? Reb Moshe has a psak allowing train travel, but the story as related above was never said by Reb Moshe.October 29, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #665969
Mezonos Maven, and you now thta for a factOctober 29, 2009 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #665970
and you know that for a factNovember 2, 2009 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #665971Proud JewMember
To Oomis & Jewess: stop this argument that it might be a better idea to teach your children self control.
If adults have problems controlling themselves, how can u send young children to such a war zone?
How should a child learn that day after being exposed on their way to all this garbage? of course when he will be an adult after having solid education for so many years they can go on a bus, & even than we needs much “SIYATA DISHMAYA”November 2, 2009 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #665972ronrsrMember
aren’t the teenage years supposed to be about learning to control your impulses? No one expects the young to be perfect, but we do expect them to learn.November 2, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #665975jphoneMember
Perhaps we should make sure that all riders are within 2 years of each other. This way, we can perhaps facilitate shidduchim.
I think I will discuss this with the bus drivers on the B11, a little shadchanus and these drivers might even cooperate. 1st 4 rows are for those 19-21. Next 4 rows for those 22-24 and so on.November 2, 2009 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #665976
Maybe it’s just time to get “mehadrin” buses in NY. Or perhaps, maybe it’s time for all Jews to move “out-of-town” to EY. Although, to be honest, you won’t like a lot of what you see on the buses here either. (And that goes for Yerushalayim too, not just Haifa.)November 4, 2009 5:49 am at 5:49 am #665979skatesMember
k, I know this may be off topic a bit…but since we’r discussing bus issues, in israel the bus situation is crazy!! i don’t know if you ever noticed, but the pushing that goes on in Guela to get on the last few buses is incredible!!
I mean forget shomer negia…I have seen grown adults push eachother…men pushing ladies…bochurim pushing girls to squeeze in…never understood why there hasn’t been some kind of a protest against that!
I remember in sem, during the first few weeks, some girls back late after curfew and explained to the aim bait that they couldn’t get on the buses back because of everyone pushing…especially the men/boys,
the aim bait said they need to learn to be israeli and push! i think thats funny but sad as well that this is what needs to be done to get on a bus!
and no, you can’t take a taxi everyday…its very pricy since the taxi drivers try at times to rip americans off( but thats for a different thread…)November 4, 2009 6:18 am at 6:18 am #665980
jphone: then everyone will know my age! (and everyone else’s…)November 4, 2009 11:39 am at 11:39 am #665981jphoneMember
The issue you describe getting on a bus is also true in any store before Yom Tov.
It is an issue of mentchlichkeit. Its something that seems to be lacking in great measure (in me too, at times).November 4, 2009 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #665982
hss: They can tell from the wrinkles anyways. And besides, you already sit in the back.November 4, 2009 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #665983
jphone – “Perhaps we should make sure that all riders are within 2 years of each other. This way, we can perhaps facilitate shidduchim.
I think I will discuss this with the bus drivers on the B11, a little shadchanus and these drivers might even cooperate. 1st 4 rows are for those 19-21. Next 4 rows for those 22-24 and so on.”
EDITEDNovember 4, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #665984
cherry, Actually I have to disagree with you and agree with the mods. The premise of your deleted “joke” was that frum guys are doing something to be more attractive to unknown girls on a bus. This premise itself is unacceptable, and indeed the issue the OP raised on this thread.November 4, 2009 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #665985
cherry, Actually I have to disagree with you and agree with the mods. The premise of your deleted “joke” was that frum guys are doing something to be more attractive to unknown girls on a bus. This premise itself is unacceptable, and indeed the issue the OP raised on this thread.
The reality is however, the reality. The male population, whether me or yeshiva bochrim or our elderly, when placed in a mixed setting we will be more attentive to our hygiene requirements.
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