The constant protests in eretz yisroel need to be addressed.

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  • #1831601

    simon p
    Participant

    I am constantly getting news items and videos about protest, whether it be about the light railway or draft Dodgers being arrested etc. Why are parents letting their children go and protest when the biggest thing they could do is to sit in the beis hamedrash and learn? Maybe take an extra mitzvah to do or daven harder. The gedolim will say sure it’s a mitzvah to protest, but I am sorry, it’s a bigger mitzvah to daven to for yeshuosh then to sit blocking roads and causing others to be late for shul, kollel, etc. There’s no halachic justification to cause financial loss or time loss at the expense of what that are doing! Go back to the beis and learn!

    #1831638

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This was an argument in Europe between the Chasam Sofer and students of Volosion against the reform movement. The Chasam Sofer has his students fight by separating from the reformed and they saved the yeshivas whereas the Volosiion students sat and learned and at the end reform movement took over.

    #1831666

    BMG
    Participant

    “The gedolim will say sure it’s a mitzvah to protest, but I am sorry, it’s a bigger mitzvah to daven to for yeshuosh”
    I’m also sorry for you
    It’s one thing to thing you know better than the gedolim in worldly matters but how can you thing you know better than them regarding what’s a mitzvah? Do you also think you know more about heart surgery than a heart surgeon ?

    That’s not just a question of emunah it just make any sense to think that
    Btw it is true that all the gedolim have said in the past to protest including R Elyashiv R Shteinman and R Chaim Kenievsky however not all agree in the specific case of the draft issue
    Also I’m sure you yourself would have a point were you feel an injustice is great enough to protest for example clear anti Semitic acts by a government or the like despite that protest inconveniencing others it’s simply a question of values for these people spiritual persecution is worse than physical (that also happens to be the Torah’s view as the Gemara states: it is worse to cause one to sin than to kill him

    #1831675

    simplesense
    Participant

    Very well put BMG. However your name sort of gives away your biases on the matter 🙂 (not that I disagree with your point chv”sh)

    #1831680

    simon p
    Participant

    BMG I am not saying chas vesholom the rabbonim can’t give a psak for people to follow, however we say every morning אלו דברים….. that’s they proof enough there. We need help from The One Above, sitting on a floor in a road inconveniencing other yidden, causing bittul zman especially those trying to get back to kollel is not acceptable. As a parent whose son is in yeshiva I wouldn’t expect to my son to be allowed by the yeshiva to leave his learning for political reasons.

    #1831694

    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    To my mind, the big mistake with these protesters is that they are staging thier protests in the midst of the general public, who have no power or authority and who are just like the protesters – average citizens. The protesters thereby only aggravate and alienate the general public and do little or nothing for their cause. They ought to be protesting at the seat of government – block roads to the Kenesset, go to Netanyahu’s house, as well as every Minister who supports anti-Chareidi measures. That has two effects – it confronts the actual government authorities with the consequences of their actions and it generates support amongst the public, who are always somewhat inclined to resent the governent over some matter or another.

    #1831705

    Avi K
    Participant

    With their fighting spirit they should be in IDF combat units.

    #1831712

    Gog Umagog
    Participant

    Well, protesting things like Busses running on Shabbat in Eretz Yisrael, which would prevent other Jewish people from at the very least somewhat publicly desecrating Shabbat may be a worthwhile protest if effective, even to a small degree.

    After all it is in fact Eretz Yisrael itself…

    #1831733

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Simon
    Don’t bow to the revisionist history being put out by peleg and apparently their mouthpiece here BMG
    Rav Shteinman did not support these protests, neither did the vast majority of rosh hayeshivos in EY who viewed Rav Shteinmans derech as the proper one
    Unfortunately he isn’t around anymore

    #1831741

    simon p
    Participant

    Mentsch1….I am not that naive to know that what the rabbonim say and what people do are two different things. In my humble opinion, just like last week Sedra, h-shem wanted to hear our cries so we had the yam suf after yetzias mitzrayim, so to the sanctity of eretz yisroel is always at risk yet instead of combating it with learning more Torah and davening harder it’s seemingly easier to go park oneself in front of a bus or road and protest. If the charedim did more to elevate the level maybe it wouldn’t be going down so much. H-shem created opposites of everything…..

    #1831740

    akuperma
    Participant

    If you don’t like protests. there are countries that don’t have such a problem Germany was very successful in banning protests for a 17 year period (until the Americans conquered them and undid the ban). Today, North Korea is world famous as a protest-free zone.

    #1831751

    simon p
    Participant

    Akuperma…. having been caught up in protests before there is zero justification for the rabbim to be caught up and penalised because of some jealots who should be sitting learning instead of doing bittul Torah and bittul zman. Like ‘someone in Monsey’ wrote, go to kenesset or bibi residence. Not in the middle of the neighbourhood’s, the people living there are the ones that suffer.

    #1831826

    poshiteryid
    Participant

    You sound lik Lieberman. That is his whole tayne on the chareidim and thats one of the big things he claims he will put an end to and stop giving money to all these yeshivos

    #1832001

    BMG
    Participant

    Mentch1 why not read what i wrote i specificaly said other gedolim argue regarding protesting here i just wrote that all inc rav shteinman have said in the past to protest over spiritual maters for example see rav Shteinman’s letter years ago signed by R Chaim Kenievsky as well that everyone should dedicate 3 days a year to protest with asrah kadishah and those protest were worse than these look it up

    #1832004

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Why are posters assuming that it is true that gedolim support protesting? How many gedolim support protesting vs. how many have spoken out against it? Please show me which gedoilm support these protesters. I would be very curious to see the list.

    Reb Eliezer’s comparison to the Chasam Sofer makes absolutely no sense and proves nothing.

    #1832010

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Peaceful disobedience means being prepared to take the consequences for your violations of the law. However, the Likud-led government seems unable/unwilling to enforce the law and allows these Peleg hoodlums and their leadership to disrupt the tzibur with impunity, perhaps out of fear of alienating the religious parties who are part of their coalition.

    #1832035

    simplesense
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah, Peleg isn’t, and hasn’t been for a long time, part of the coalition. They don’t even vote.

    #1832043

    simon p
    Participant

    PoshiterYid….. this wks sedra explains the attitude of the protesters perfectly. On the פסוק- ולא תעלה based on Rashi, perhaps we can say that the posuk is alluding to a deeper machshava. A person can be so preoccupied with a mitzvah, rushing with alacrity and zeal, that he may inadvertently “step” on another yid. His haste may cause him to ignore the dignity and respect of a spouse, sibling, or child. Says the Torah, as you ascend my mizbeach make sure you don’t offend your fellow Jew – because then the whole mitzvah is rendered posul. As we know the two sides of the luchos, bein adam lamakom and bein adam lachaveiro, were given as one – they are inseparable. I once heard a vert’l. Why is the letter צ called tzaddik? A Yerushalmi yid at the kosel once told me, because it carries a yud – (a yid) on its shoulders! But then he continued: So why is an
    א which also carries a yud, not called a tzaddik?
    Because at the same time that he’s carrying a yid, he’s also stepping on a yid! (An
    א has a yud in the bottom left too.)
    What a profound thought! One cannot carry and trample on another yid! So although we may be passionately enthusiastic
    in our avodas Hashem, let’s make sure that we are just as careful not to chas v’shalom slight a friend in the process!

    #1832051

    akuperma
    Participant

    Neturei Karta engages in peaceful protests – note the great approval one hears of them from the people complaining about Peleg. Whether peaceful, non-violent protests (cf. Gandhi in British India, Martin Luther King in the American South under Jim Crow, the “White Rose” in Nazi Germany) are effective is a matter to debate.

    Remember, the alternative to protests is repression, i.e. gestapos and camps, gulags, “re-education”, When you look at it that way, democratic tolerance of disorder doesn’t seem all that bad.

    #1832158

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Simon
    Aruch Hashulchan 53:22
    A mitzvah that comes about through machlokes is not a mitzvah
    It is not possible to sit down in , and stop traffic without creating tremendous machlokes, thus I don’t see how it can be a mitzvah
    I was at plenty of protests in EY, the ones supported by the gedolim. They involved preplanning, the public being made aware and thus able to plan accordingly. Hundreds of thousands showed up
    These protests involve handfuls of teenagers who take it upon themselves to cause tremendous tircha dtzibura. The ones being effected are usually fellow yerushalyimites. And for what goal? for what purpose?
    Does anyone take such a protest seriously? or does the public just see them as the hooligans they are?(albeit dressed differently then the hooligans we have in our country)

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