January 23, 2019 5:36 am at 5:36 am #1666168
DaasYochid made a point that the reason the Chasidish “dating” system (i.e. a ton of research before anyone ever meets, followed by a very small number of short meeting(s) between the guy and gal, followed by a long engagement where the couple has little if any get togethers [if even any contact at all] before the wedding) works well for the Chasidish, whereas DaasYochid claims it wouldn’t work well for the Litvish/Yeshivish oilem, is because of “different expectations for what a marriage is supposed to look like” by Chasidim versus to the Litvish/Yeshivish velt.
This thread isn’t intended to debate whether Chasidim have better marriages (as some claim) or whether Chasidim and Litvish in general both have just as good marriages (as others claim) albeit in different ways or if the Litvish/Yeshivish have better marriages. Such a debate could go on ad nauseum. Nor is this thread intended to debate which of the two dating systems is better, another very worthwhile topic that deserves its own thread.
Rather our topic of the hour under discussion here today is how marriages of American Chasidim so greatly differ from that of marriages of American Litvish/Yeshivish, to the extent that they require radically different dating systems — and any proposal or suggestion that the Litvish/Yeshivish oilem adapt elements of the Chasidish system to potentially reap benefits that would be very helpful (i.e. to reduce the age gap or to encourage guys to get married younger) results in comments such as DaasYochid’s assertion that for some reason those elements are good and work for American Chasidim but wouldn’t work for the American Litvish/Yeshivish. When asked why he says it would cause shalom bayis issues (though he hasn’t been clear why that would be so.)
It should be pointed out that the Litvish/Yeshivish velt in Eretz Yisroel has a system closer to the American Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish world. And it works for them.
To get right down to it, why would such a system cause issues with shalom bayis? In what ways, significant and small, do marriages (meaning after the chasuna) differ between these two groups? How do their marriages line up with the very Yeshivish oilem in Eretz Yisroel? And how do their marriages line up with the marriages of our zeidas and bubbes (many of whom are B”H still alive) who were born in prewar Europe or in the prewar Mizrachi world?January 23, 2019 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1667065
Could you just tell us which side you’re going to take, Joseph, before anyone wastes time posting their opinions for you to “correct.”
I don’t want to offend DaasYochid, because this might not be what he meant. But, usually when people say stuff like what is mentioned in the OP, they are implying that Chassidishe marriages are a purely pragmatic instrument for fulfilling a mitzvah, whereas Litvish marriages have an actual romantic component. I don’t necessarily believe this to be true at all, but I do think it’s what people are implying when they talk like that.January 23, 2019 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1667135
Neville, you believe that very Chasidishe marriages (not just Rebbishe marriages — as well as very Yeshivish marriages in EY) by and large have notable romance, beyond what any long term marriage has? Why do you think some say otherwise?January 23, 2019 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1667143
“It should be pointed out that the Litvish/Yeshivish velt in Eretz Yisroel has a system closer to the American Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish world. And it works for them.”
Maybe their expectations of marriage are more similar to Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish worldJanuary 23, 2019 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1667145
The little I knowParticipant
I disagree with the premise.January 23, 2019 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1667174
TLIK: How, then, do you explain the reason why Chasidim and the Litvish/Yeshivish have a vastly different dating/engagement system from each other?
i.e. beshows/one-two meetings in home/engaged with little contact till the wedding versus dating one on one 8-10 times/restaurants and outside venues/much more contact, etc.January 23, 2019 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1667175
“Maybe their expectations of marriage are more similar to Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish world”
ubiq: Can you please define what each of their expectations of marriage is and how they differ from each other?January 23, 2019 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1667203
While you are clarifying, perhaps also distinguish between “Chassideshe” and “Rebbishe” kiddushin.January 23, 2019 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1667208
“by and large have notable romance, beyond what any long term marriage has?”
No, I believe they have the same as any long term marriage. I think that others tend to believe that they have none.January 23, 2019 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1667209
I’m hesitant since DY’s response to your question might be right.
but here goes…
first a few questions if you don’t mind
1) Which (of the two) are you familiar with and how do you define their expectations of marriage?
2) Have you heard sholam bayis vaadim/shmuzin/misser shmisen from either group?
3) Are you familiar with the song “do you love me” from fiddler on the roof? (the lyrics are available on line) which (if any) of the 2 groups does that description of love/marriage describe?January 23, 2019 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1667293
As someone who has friends from both groups, the premise is beyond ludicrous. I would even go out on a limb and argue that Chassidim have happier marriages. (I am not Chassidish.)January 23, 2019 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1667296
1. Both. But Litvish better, perhaps. My definition of their expectations is to build a bayis ne’emen b’yisroel, with all that details. A bit vague, no doubt, which is why I’m asking you for your definition of it and description of the differences between them.
2. From the Yeshivish side.
3. I just read it. I think it could be applied to long term Litvish and Chasidish marriages. I also think it could be applied to long term secular and Catholic marriages.January 23, 2019 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1667311
The little I knowParticipant
Chassidishe and Litvishe also tend to daven different nuschaos, have different levush and values of that levush, and follow minhagim and piskei halacha that also differ. So what? The variability in expectations of marriage may well have nothing at all to do with these artificial groupings, and more to do with the role models experienced by these young people prior to marriage. And these role models certainly involve one’s parents and family of origin, but likely others to whom one has been exposed. I am familiar with marital discord among all types of families, and I do not detect mechanisms that distinguish these groupings, nor any meaningful statistics.
I believe that having inadequate preparation for marriage leaves one with unrealistic expectations, and this is unrelated to whether one wears a shtreimel or a bend down hat. It would be curious to hear the assessment of the toanim that represent couples in beis din, who get to hear a good bit about the factors responsible for the problems. Do they second the motion on the hypothesis that the approach to marriage is any different, and does that matter?January 23, 2019 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1667361
Trying to generalize about whether chassidishe or Litvishe marriages are more or less “successful”l, “happier”, or characterized by any other objective metric that can be reverse-engineered to derive a strategy for shadchannus seems a bit absurd. People are people and the individuals will ultimate determine marriage outcomes. Of course there are some obvious differences in minhagim and stylistic attributes but at the core, the choson/kalah are the key, not as someone said their lvush or whether they include va’yatzmach purkanei in kaddish.January 23, 2019 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1667384
gadol: Do you think Bucharian Jews conduct martial life the same way Modern Orthodox Jews do?
Of course there are differences. Some are rather very significant differences, even when speaking very generally.January 23, 2019 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1667440
“Trying to generalize about whether chassidishe or Litvishe marriages are more or less “successful”l, “happier”, ”
I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but in no way did I suggest that. They are “different”
“My definition of their expectations is to build a bayis ne’emen b’yisroel, with all that details. A bit vague, no doubt”
A bit vague, certainly. The question is also how that bayis ne’eman looks. You say ou are familiar with “2. From the Yeshivish side.” I’m familiar with both. There are many pesukimmamarei chazal that describe the husband-wife relationship. Yeshivish shmuzin put more of an emphasis on “building a home together” looking for an “ezer kenegdo” describing the couple in terms of “rayim huahuvim” To a certain extent the Yeshivish world is looking for a partner, a friend even. To become friends you need to spend more time together, you need to have somewhat similar interests. I wouldnt quite say s NC put it that “have an actual romantic component.” since that tends to develop later among both. Chasdish shmuzin (and there are a looooot less of these, which is part of the distinction) focus more on “Vehu yimshol bach” (I dont mean this in a negative way, it is a pasuk in the torah after all) that the husband is the leader of the household A popular chazal used to describe the husband’s role is “שְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים צָרִיךְ אָדָם לוֹמַר בְּתוֹךְ בֵּיתוֹ עֶרֶב שַׁבָּת עִם חֲשֵׁכָה. עִשַּׂרְתֶּם. עֵרַבְתֶּם. הַדְלִיקוּ אֶת הַנֵּר.” his role is to supervise the rest of his family’s yidishkeit. His wife cleans the home, prepeares the meals and his job is to come home and ask “עִשַּׂרְתֶּם. עֵרַבְתֶּם. הַדְלִיקוּ אֶת הַנֵּר” Of course hsi job is also to provide for her leaving her free to raise the children. They aren’t equals .
Again this isn’t better or worse per se. the nature of the relationships and thus their courtship is different.
Of course it isn’t all black and white, and of course in Yeshivish homes the husband is “head of the household” and In chasidish homes the wife isn’t just another kid .
And of course this is a generalization and their is a wide spectrum between them. Those hwo are more yeshivish have relationships more similar to those of chasidim, and their dating reflects that.
You said “Do you think Bucharian Jews conduct martial life the same way Modern Orthodox Jews do? Of course there are differences.”
what differences did you mean?January 23, 2019 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1667465
“As someone who has friends from both groups, the premise is beyond ludicrous. I would even go out on a limb and argue that Chassidim have happier marriages. (I am not Chassidish.)”
What are you thinking is “the premise?” That Litvish and Chassidish marriages are different from each other? If so, it seems like you do agree with the premise by your second sentence.
“Trying to generalize about whether chassidishe or Litvishe marriages are more or less “successful”l, “happier””
The OP specifically says that that isn’t what this thread is about…January 23, 2019 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1667468
Neville ChaimBerlin: Please elucidate what your definition of romance is when you state some say Chasidishe marriages have none of it (an assertion that you dispute.)January 23, 2019 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1667426
I hate to say but i think tbis whole discussion is somewhat a waste of time for todays day and age.
Chassidim for the most part today are unlike what they use to be even though the dating process is similiar , but thrre a major differences between how chassidim live today to how thier great grandparents lived. Also today there are so many types within one chassidis that it no longer has an identity of said chadidus.Litvaks on the other hand are much closer to how thier ancestors dated . Post marriage stayed almost the same by chassidim but changed drastically by litvaks ie: kollel / work. Wives at work vs at home etc.
Cant speak for Chabad as i hardly had any exposure to them to give sn opinionJanuary 23, 2019 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1667479
I’ll throw this out there, not sure if it is true or not. In the chashidish oilam, the parents do the dating for the kids with all the checking out, meeting with the other side, the couple only meets when the parents decide that the shidduch is marriage-worthy. It works because of the relationship between parent /child- the couple are usually young, rely on the their parents’ judgment, and since the shidduch is usually within the community, or one very similar, wherein people tend to be more homogenous, the parents are well positioned to be able to determine who will be a fitting life-partner for their child. They are also more used to accepting authority’s decision when it comes to personal decisions (ie Rebbe’s daas Torah)
I think that since the Litvish community is not as tight knit, and children are more independent vs their parents, and start dating a bit older, the reliance on the parents’ judgement is weaker, less dependence on a Rebbe-like figure, hence the couple is more independent when it comes to deciding whom to marry.
The chareidi world in E’Y may be more homogenous at least externally, so they lie somewhere in the middle, but although the dating process is shorter than in Chu”l, it is more similar to American Litvish in that the decision is in the couple’s hands, the parents are not doing the dating and decision making.
So according to my theory, it is not the marriage relationship that is different (Although it may be so), but the child/parent-authority relationship that is different.January 23, 2019 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1667480
Joe: Yes….while the parents of a Bucharian choson/kalah may have made the initial kiddushin commitments when their kids were still in diapers and the cost of the chassanah itself would probably blow through the recent efforts by some Ashkanaz rabbonim to cap the costs of weddings, once all the parties are over, the realities of living together as husband/wife are really the same for ALL frum yidden. A Bucharian couple may be fortunate enough to start with a bit more in the way of resources but the day-to-day relationship issues, desire for mutual respect, issues with kids and machatonim are not unique.January 24, 2019 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1668028
“the realities of living together as husband/wife are really the same for ALL frum yidden.”
That isn’t true at all, and I don’t think you even think so. Would you say the realities of husband/wife dynamics are the same for a yeshivish couple where the male learns full time and the woman provides 100% of the household income and for a MO couple where they both contribute equally? The Litvish world is quite possibly the first society in the history of all mankind to attempt a system where the female is the sole provider. Whether or not it’s a successful experiment, you could debate. But, I don’t think it’s possible to say it’s just like any other frum relationship or just like any other relationship. It’s radically different than any other kind of marriage.
To your credit, I have no idea what point Joseph was making with the MO/Bucharian analogy. One is an ethnic group and one is a level of religiosity; a person could easily be both.January 24, 2019 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1668004
On another thread Joseph wrote
“Shuls should refuse entry to women and their husband/father who goes in public pritzusdik. They should be shunned by the entire community.”
” your idea would 100% fly in chasiddish shuls’ Less so in yeshivish ones (I’m not saying it wouldnt, but less so) . This is part of the difference I mentioned in the other thread”
what Imeant was, that viewing the husband as being “in charge” of his wife is a more common view in chassidish Circles. Litvish circles are less likely to view her tznius as his responsibility .
Again, this is not absolute, it is just a generalization .
You said “Do you think Bucharian Jews conduct martial life the same way Modern Orthodox Jews do? Of course there are differences.”
what differences did you mean?January 24, 2019 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1668093
ubiq, Neveille, gadol: Bucharian Yidden have a reputation of strong male leadership marriages, whereupon the husband is the kingmaker and final authority of virtually any family issue and where the wife is expected to be fully obedient. This may or may have not changed in the past 15-20 years with the younger, more Americanized, generation. OTOH, the MO have a reputation of following secular marriage trends of egalitarianism in marriage. Hence I used those two extreme examples to make an illustrative comparative difference.
ubiq, Regarding your differentiation between Chasidish and Litvish marriages, I don’t agree with your assessment regarding the Litvish. The idea that the husband is in charge and responsible for the compliance of his wife and minor children’s ruchniyos isn’t a Chasidish hanhaga. It is basic halacha mentioned repeatedly from Chazal through Shulchan Aruch and beyond. I don’t see any reasons that the Litvish would differ from the Chasidish in this regard.January 24, 2019 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1668136
“It is basic halacha mentioned repeatedly from Chazal through Shulchan Aruch and beyond.”
I did not dispute that point.
In shmuzin youve heard (earlier you said you heard from the yeshivish side) is that stressed a lot, a little or not at all?
And again this is but one facet. your description of Bucharian relationships can aptly be used to describe chasidish ones (generally speaking) would you not agree?
Less so yeshivish ones were they are more equal (though not complelty equal)
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