The Eldest Oyster: Herd Immunity vs. Herd Mentality

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  • #1939860
    ujm
    Participant

    Food for Thought on the New Vaccine — I found this especially pertinent article discussing the new vaccine that is certainly worthwhile a read, whether you agree or not:

    O Oysters, come and walk with us!’

    The Walrus did beseech.

    A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,

    Along the briny beach:

    We cannot do with more than four,

    To give a hand to each.’

    The eldest Oyster looked at him,

    But never a word he said:

    The eldest Oyster winked his eye,

    And shook his heavy head —

    Meaning to say he did not choose

    To leave the oyster-bed.

    Way back in my yeshiva bochur days when personal computers (PCs) were just becoming a “thing”, I took a short summer course in computer sciences. This was the dawn of technical acceleration when anything one bought might be outdated before he could get it out of the box. The non-observant course instructor gave me a bit of advice that is applicable to all new innovations, not just computers, which I have treasured ever since.

    He said: “Never buy any new product or technology the minute it comes to market. You can’t tell what will succeed and what won’t. Let the other people be the guinea pigs!”

    I may be paraphrasing his opening sentence but his last sentence is word for word: Let the other people be the guinea pigs.

    And I have never forgotten those words. I am not interested in being a guinea pig.

    So let’s get up to date.

    Last August, I was stricken with “the pandemic”. About the same time, several other members of my shul in Har Nof came down with it. We are all in the same age range. Baruch Hashem, all of us had relatively mild cases – mine was exceedingly mild – and we were all dancing back within 10 days. I have not taken a serological anti-body test, but I haven’t gotten it since.

    As you might imagine, like many members of this planet, I have been digesting all the medical and “scientific” information that has been spoon-fed to us over the past year and certainly in the recent two months. The resulting composite information is essential to determine if getting a vaccination is a good idea or not. And my conclusion is…

    I don’t know.

    And what is the best thing to do when one doesn’t know?

    Nothing.

    Wait and see until you know better. In the meanwhile…do nothing.

    In Halachic terms, it’s called שב ואל תעשה עדיף.

    The Navi Yeshaya (26:20) calls it: חבי כמעט רגע עד יעבור זעם.

    “Wait just a moment until the anger passes.”

    This seems to be the sensible thing to do (or not do). What’s the hurry?

    But, it’s not just a “hurry”. It’s a mad rush. A frenzy!

    But four young Oysters hurried up,

    All eager for the treat:

    Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,

    Their shoes were clean and neat —

    And this was odd, because, you know,

    They hadn’t any feet.

    Four other Oysters followed them,

    And yet another four;

    And thick and fast they came at last,

    And more, and more, and more —

    All hopping through the frothy waves,

    And scrambling to the shore.

    Now, I have elderly parents (LOY”T) who live in the US. This is the community where I grew up, so I have a married sister and married brother who also live there. Also, I have an unmarried sibling who was living in Passaic but came to visit our parents for last Pesach when the pandemic was first taking root and has stayed there ever since. So, unlike me, these siblings are in constant proximity with my parents and can look after their needs.

    Baruch Hashem, my parents have managed to dodge the Covid-19 bullet all these months. Social distancing is easy at their age. And now comes the question of whether to vaccinate or not. Actually, my parents (LOY”T) are in remarkably good health both physically and mentally and they can make their own choices. We siblings only act as “advisors”. We all want what’s best, but it is hard to agree on what is best. And we don’t.

    I, and at least one other sibling here in Eretz Yisrael, are on the “not now” platform. Why?

    Three primary reasons:

    We don’t know if this vaccine works.

    We don’t know if it’s necessary.

    We don’t know if it’s safe.
    Reasons 1 and 2 are not necessarily deal breakers. Even if it doesn’t work and even if it’s not necessary, why not take it? What is there to lose? It’s free, after all.

    But wait a bit,’ the Oysters cried,

    Before we have our chat;

    For some of us are out of breath,

    And all of us are fat!’

    No hurry!’ said the Carpenter.

    They thanked him much for that.

    Now we arrive at reason number 3. We don’t know if it’s safe. And we can’t know until it has been out and about and meticulously tested through all scenarios – young and old, male and female, in perfect health and in compromised health, through conception and pregnancy and nursing, and that it lasts at least a year – everything.

    And it hasn’t been.

    And, as long as it hasn’t been properly tested, it remains a risk. Are we allowed to take such risks?

    According to many poskim such as [Mori V’Rabi] HRHG Rav Asher Zelig Weiss, Shlita, we are allowed to do so as long as it is clear that the benefits are high and the risks are low. in his opinion it is all but an obligation.

    This is his psak and I submit to this halachic ruling when it is in fact clear that the benefits are high and the risks are low.

    But are they?

    Mori V’Rabi HRHG A Z Weiss is convinced that they are. As such, he holds it is a mitzvah to get the vaccine. Everybody should, young and old man and woman. And…the sooner the better.

    I am not so convinced. This is where reasons 1 and 2 come in. In order to determine that the benefits are high, we need to examine what benefits there are, as well as for whom. The presumed benefits are (1) that it works, so it protects people from getting infected and (2) it’s necessary, meaning that getting infected is really so drastic and that there are not better and safer ways to deal with it.

    HRHG Rav A Z Weiss, Shlita, and some other outspoken rabbanim – HRHG Rav Mordechai Willig, Shlita, HRHG Rav Gershon Edelstein, Shlita, HRHG Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein, Shlita, HRHG Rav Dovid Cohen, Shlita of Chevron Yeshiva – as well as several sincere, devout and learned chareidi medical authorities such as Rabbi Dr. Aharon Glatt and Rabbi Elimelech Firer, to name a few, are all convinced that it is safe and have reassured us accordingly.

    What is this based on?

    It is based on the hurried and abbreviated phase-one “clinical trials” performed by such paragons of virtue as Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna. Rabbi Dr. Glatt assures us that these two abbreviated studies “miraculously” yielded identical conclusive results and were supervised by some independent “advisory committees”.

    But do you know who hasn’t assured us that it is safe?

    Pfizer, BioNTech, Moderna, AstraZaneca and the FDA. That’s who.

    A loaf of bread,’ the Walrus said,

    Is what we chiefly need:

    Pepper and vinegar besides

    Are very good indeed —

    Now if you’re ready, Oysters dear,

    We can begin to feed.’

    But not on us!’ the Oysters cried,

    Turning a little blue.

    After such kindness, that would be

    A dismal thing to do!’

    The night is fine,’ the Walrus said.

    Do you admire the view?

    They admit that there has been no long-term testing at all (how could there be?) and none on pregnant or nursing women (who would volunteer for this?), or on all age ranges, or on all kinds of people with other health conditions. All this is not to mention all of these new “variants” that keep coming out every second week.

    This is along with some ex-Pfizer scientists and a number of chareidi scientists who question the integrity of this vaccine. And need we mention a sizable proportion of doctors, front line health workers and nursing home attendants who refuse to take the vaccine?

    So it’s not like there aren’t any dissenters out there with just as many diplomas and certificates as Rabbi Dr. Glatt and Rabbi Firer and the whole lineup of distinguished rabbanim. And it’s not like anyone at all who vouches for this vaccine is putting anything on the line. Anything at all.

    There is no liability or redress for anyone who may suffer adverse reactions to this vaccine. Not from Pfizer, BioNTech, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Johnson and Johnson, any government, Anthony Fauchi, Bill Gates or anybody. Or even from Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt, Rabbi Elimelech Firer, Bibi, Litzman or any posek. Nobody.

    You are on your own. But don’t worry. It’s safe.

    It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,

    To play them such a trick,

    After we’ve brought them out so far,

    And made them trot so quick!’

    The Carpenter said nothing but

    The butter’s spread too thick!’

    But aside from the question of safety which is a throwback to above reason number 3, we have very little to go on that it actually works (above reason number 1). In the well-circulated December 20 interview, Rabbi Dr. Glatt was singing the praises of this vaccine and how much chessed HKBH has done to get this out so quick and, of course, he lauded the Pfizer/Moderna propaganda about their clinical trials on how well it works. But he couldn’t tell us how many people he knows or treated personally that were protected by this vaccine.

    After this, in the same presentation, comes a halachic perspective by HRHG Rav Mordechai Willig, Shlita. I couldn’t help but notice that the entire halachic perspective relies on the veracity of the medical position supported by people like Rabbi Dr. Glatt. (Yes, this can also be applied to the position of HRHG Rav A Z Weiss.)

    But the ironic part of Rabbi Willig’s remarks was the point where, on Dec. 20., he expressly quotes a statement from HRHG Rav Dovid Cohen from Yeshivat Chevron on how it is essentially important to take this vaccine (54:15). Dec. 20 was the day the vaccine drive was initially launched here in Eretz Yisrael and HRHG Rav Dovid Cohen was one of the first to take it. Ten days later, he came down with Covid-19.

    Now, we may all say that he only took the first dose and even the manufacturers say that it is “only 50%” effective after only the first dose. But…we must keep in mind that he successfully avoided getting infected for all of the previous nine months! Only now he caught it. Likewise, the Israeli MSM reports that over 4500 people came down with Covid-19 after taking the first dose of the vaccine. Incidentally, this is a moving number because many of those people took the vaccine 10-20 days ago. For those who took it over the past week or so, it is too early to tell if they will (ch”v) add to this number. But the thing to keep in mind is that all these are folks who avoided getting sick until now sans the vaccine!

    At this point I will add the most recent piece of news that HRHG Rav Yisrael Meir Lau, Shlita, came down with Covid-19 after taking the second dose of the vaccine. (Incidentally, another very recent news item tells us that 29 elderly people in Norway died from complications after taking the vaccine.)

    So, anybody, Rabbi, Dr. or posek, who tells us it is incumbent to take the vaccine because the benefits overshadow the risks have nothing but the inadequate studies and clinical trials to assure us that there even are any benefits. So much for reason 1.

    But what alarms me so much more is reason number 2 – do we really need it?

    I weep for you,’ the Walrus said:

    I deeply sympathize.’

    With sobs and tears he sorted out

    Those of the largest size,

    Holding his pocket-handkerchief

    Before his streaming eyes.

    I was truly alarmed, or even spooked, by the rhetoric of Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt who was singing and dancing about the “tremendous chessed” of the RBSO who created for us this vaccine.

    I would leave HKBH out of this discussion. I don’t know how this line is going to go over, but I will say it anyway: HKBH is as much “creditworthy” for making this vaccine as He is for making Zyklon B. No more, no less.

    Everything that exists in this world has the “stamp of approval” of the Boreh Olam Yisbarach Shmo to exist but this does not make it a good thing. He gave us this virus and He did so for a reason (or several). We can’t really know what it is, but I am a bit skeptical it is because He wants us to defend ourselves against it with a man-made vaccine.

    Moreover, we have an adage that HKBH sends the refuah before the makkah. Way before HKBH created this vaccine, he created remedies like hydrochloroquine and Ivermectin which many well accredited medical authorities claim to be very effective again this virus. And He created zinc and vitamin D3 way before that. Not a word of praise from Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt on these or even any acknowledgement that they exist.

    It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,

    To play them such a trick,

    After we’ve brought them out so far,

    And made them trot so quick!’

    The Carpenter said nothing but

    The butter’s spread too thick!’

    But, if they are effective, this makes the pandemic all that much less drastic and a vaccine all that much more unnecessary (and not worth the risks). Add to this the overwhelming fact that the population under 60 years old is much less seriously affected by this virus. And for those under 50 with no known health risks, the chances of severe consequences are almost infinitesimally small. As for women of child-bearing age who are pregnant and/or nursing or plan to be, even the mighty WHO does not recommend taking the vaccine if for no other reason than lack of data.

    So, all told, for a great portion of the population, it is all but impossible to say that the benefits clearly overshadow the risks. And this makes it all the more alarming that people such as Rabbi Dr. Glatt and Rabbi Elimelech Firer, and even great rabbanim such as Rav A Z Weiss, Shlita, Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein, Shlita, and Rabbi Willig, Shlita are all urging all of us to get vaccinated straight out of the box and making no distinctions between high-risk and low-risk candidates or child-capable women or anything!

    I am sorry to say but, to me, this doesn’t add up.

    O Oysters,’ said the Carpenter,

    You’ve had a pleasant run!

    Shall we be trotting home again?’

    But answer came there none —

    And this was scarcely odd, because

    They’d eaten every one.”

    Many years ago, I was taught by a long-haired non-observant Jew not to buy any product without a proven track record. Not to be a guinea pig. This, when the only ramification is losing some money and a bit of aggravation. Today, some of the most distinguished chareidi gedolim and esteemed medical askanim are telling me otherwise when there are more serious issues at stake.

    It’s a tough call, but I am not as young as I used to be.

    The eldest Oyster looked at him,

    But never a word he said:

    The eldest Oyster winked his eye,

    And shook his heavy head —

    Meaning to say he did not choose

    To leave the oyster-bed.

    שב ואל תעשה עדיף

    #1939970
    charliehall
    Participant

    It works.

    It is necessary.

    It is safe.

    So say the results from two huge randomized clinical trials, one for the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine and one for the similar Moderna vaccine. Basically, if you don’t accept their results you should never ever waste your time going to see any doctor for anything because you do not believe in modern medical science, because there is basically nothing that the doctor can offer you for any condition that is as safe or as effective, other than some vaccines for other diseases.

    #1939988
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t know if that’s fair charlie. People are entitled to be wary with no long term knowledge. Don’t equate that with throwing out the baby with the bath water.
    I had covid, and am currently not working. I will pass on the caccine until people who need it more get it.

    #1940015
    charliehall
    Participant

    “People are entitled to be wary with no long term knowledge. ”

    The long term effects of COVID-19 are death and disability. Treatments aren’t very effective. I am glad you recovered but many have not been so blessed. Hopefully you have antibodies that will protect you from a repeat case.

    The real uncertainly regarding long term effects of the vaccines are that we don’t know for how long the vaccines will provide protection. It could be lifelong, like the measles vaccine, or it could be necessary to be revaccinated every year, like influenza.

    But I have been in this work for decades and I have not seen any medical treatment that has been shown to be so effective, with so few serious adverse events, ever in my career. If you question the vaccine’s safety or efficacy, then you basically should reject everything in evidence-based medicine.

    #1940020
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Again, not true. The long term effects for 90+% of covid patients is NOT death and disability. We don’t know how many post vaccine deaths were related to the vaccine, we don’t know how detrimental the vaccine is to fragile populations, we only know right now that it’s good enough to prevent this pandemic from going on endlessly. Why would you equate that with all the other stuff out there? It’s no connection. When i had my oldest kids they wouldn’t allow ultrasounds unless absolutely vital. Why? They knew it was safe. But they did not yet know the long term effects.

    Some people can’t afford to wait for the vaccine. But some can and why shouldn’t they. They don’thave your access to information. It has no bearing whatsoever on what other pharmaceuticals they choose to use.

    Tho I  personally have already told my kids to go ahead and get it, and i can’t use an anonymous CR poster as a reference to doubting friends, i do appreciate your haskama.

    #1940056

    I think that if the parents are safely isolated, they can safely wait a month. It may be even recommended to let people who are more in danger to go first. At the same time, any old person who is connected to any institutions (nursing home, hospitals, yeshivas) should get it immediately.

    After about a month, we will have observational data on millions of people from Israel, US, and UK and we will see immediate effects across all age groups and health conditions.

    #1940194
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think anyone with antibodies should wait, and anybody without antibodies should get it as soon as they can.

    I don’t understand why this isn’t the standard recommendation.

    #1940206
    ujm
    Participant

    I don’t think a pregnant or nursing 28 year old with no antibodies should rush to get it.

    #1940241
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think a pregnant or nursing 28 year old with no antibodies should rush to get it.

    I understand the concern, but isn’t covid a concern too?

    #1940254
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @ujm While I understand the concern, you are starting off with a false assumption. We aren’t the guinea pigs. There already were guinea pigs. Tens of thousands of people have tested the vaccine, and after many months the worst side effects were a few weeks of feeling bad. On the flip side, an equal number of people did not get the vaccine (the control group) and many more of them fell ill in a much more severe manner (COVID-19).

    I agree with @charliehall. Although all the effects may not yet be known, it is a near-certainty that the dangers of not taking the vaccine far outweigh the dangers of taking it.

    As for demographics that may be in danger, such as kids and people with certain illnesses, the vaccine isn’t approved for them and they won’t be taking it until it is.

    #1940253
    trybepolite
    Participant

    most standard vaccines were tested for a good 10 or so years before being given to the public. i understand that covid is a rush but people should definitely be more cautious because even the most knowledgeable scientist in the world cant know what the practical affects will be. and if you are a believer in conspiracy theories that is even more of a reason not to take it!!

    #1940263
    ujm
    Participant

    “I understand the concern, but isn’t covid a concern too?”

    For a random 28 year old the concern of effects from covid-19 is very tiny.

    #1940264
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    charliehall,

    Apologies from this gnat who deserves no medical whatsoever care because he dares ask questions regarding the Great Priests of capital-S Science and their multi-billion dollar industry of holy sacraments for the imposition to your time.

    “So say the results from two huge randomized clinical trials”

    כה אמר המדענים, should we read these papers with the trop used for leining the Torah, or the Haftarah?

    “Basically, if you don’t accept their results you should never ever waste your time going to see any doctor for anything”

    There’s a difference between not accepting the results of a trial, and questioning whether the right questions were asked in the first place, or whether enough time has elapsed to get the answers. And given how science is fundamentally based on asking questions, it’s amazing how medical scientists and doctors in particular get really angry and bothered by questions. My field endures more questions and gets less respect overall than medical science, and deals with implications that are just as big as medicine, yet I don’t get angry when people question and doubt findings, even when those questions and doubts come from a lack of knowledge. Many times through listening I find that it’s not the science that they are rejecting, but the policies advocated in response to those findings. And those discussions are both valuable and productive.

    “because you do not believe in modern medical science”

    Since when does “science” ask for our belief? If you set up Science as a new religion, is it any wonder that religious Jews resist conversion to it?

    “I have not seen any medical treatment that has been shown to be so effective, with so few serious adverse events, ever in my career”

    Amazing what can be done when trials are designed from the outset to succeed.

    #1940265
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @trybepolite Not quite true. It takes 10 years for a vaccine to get approval. In general, to test a new drug on tens of thousands of people, there needs to be years of back and forth between the pharmaceutical company and the FDA with tons of chemical, animal, and small-scale people testing. Because testing on tens of thousands of human beings is dangerous. By the time a vaccine is ready to be tested on a large scale, there’s generally only about a year or two until it gets approved, most of which is spent figuratively waiting on line. Trump’s Operation Warp Speed allowed companies to move to large scale human testing much faster by skipping many in between steps. This caused issues that you usually don’t see in testing, such as the Astra Zeneca COVID-19 vaccine which gave some people nervous disorders.

    We have been cautious. We know the side effects. And right now the side effects are looking an awful lot safer than COVID-19.

    #1940271
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I agree with @charliehall. Although all the effects may not yet be known, it is a near-certainty that the dangers of not taking the vaccine far outweigh the dangers of taking it”

    Except the research does not support this. If anything it’s just a wash for most people. They may even end up more ill from the vaccine, just for a shorter time.

    #1940284
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    (Per real life, not data)

    #1940317
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma Even if you’re healthy there’s very good reasons to get vaccinated. Vaccines, like masks and social distancing, are more about preventing others from getting the virus than yourself. Sure you may not mind a week long fever followed by months of coughing, fits, and loss of smell, but it’s unfair that immune compromised people should have to perpetually lock down and suffer because of that.

    #1940328
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I actually minded very much. And *if* what you said was true i would be lining up. Fortunately, everyone in healthcare (as opposed to you 2 in research seemingly) said i am no longer a risk to myself or anyone else. This is their advice and they are more suited to be giving it.

    #1940320
    Participant
    Participant

    the significance of the oyster, walrus, & carpenter totally eludes me.
    @ujm who wrote this?

    #1940321
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma Research shows that 10% of people who get COVID experience severe symptoms and about 10% of people who get the vaccine experience mild symptoms. If the millions who got the vaccine had instead gotten COVID, there would have been a few thousand vaccine deaths already, plus hospitals overrun with vaccine injuries. Instead, look at Eretz Yisroel. For the first time in weeks, the strain on the hospitals is easing up. Because so much of the country has been vaccinated.

    I don’t believe there are two sides to this issue anymore than I believe in their being two sides to flat Earth theory or whether Donald Trump is a reptile. What I believe in is the Torah. And everyone I know and know of who is a Talmid Chacham is promoting getting a COVID vaccine. So either stand on the side of Torah, or stand aside.

    #1940334
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Israel just extended the lockdown by 10 days

    #1940350
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma Well if you already had COVID I don’t see the purpose of getting the vaccine. But you should schedule one for some time in six months which is about when antibodies start to wear off. And Israel extended the lockdown, but they are already seeing a decrease in COVID severity that they are attributing to the vaccine.

    #1940356
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “For the first time in weeks, the strain on the hospitals is easing up”

    Israeli Hospitals Collapsing: “Soon We’ll Have To Decide Who Will Live & Who Will Die”

    #1940452
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @avram-in-md Avereimele, you are pulling the same old schtick of ignoring my main point to focus on some narische technical inaccuracies. Fine I was wrong about Eretz Yisroel. Nu, what about the vaccination program?

    #1940570
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avereimele, you are pulling the same old schtick of ignoring my main point to focus on some narische technical inaccuracies. Fine I was wrong about Eretz Yisroel. Nu, what about the vaccination program?

    I sure hope the people doing research on the vaccines didn’t make such “narische technical inaccuracies”.

    #1940575
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @daas-yochid Before I respond to that, can I ask a few unrelated question? What is QAnon? Did NASA land on the Moon?

    #1940580
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “you are pulling the same old schtick of ignoring my main point to focus on some narische technical inaccuracies. Fine I was wrong about Eretz Yisroel. Nu, what about the vaccination program?”

    It’s one thing to not read what others write, but do you not even read what you yourself write? Your post had the following structure:

    1.) Assertion
    3.) Real life example to back up your assertion

    I then shared a link to a story apparently contradicting your real-life example. I thought maybe you’d say the story was wrong and back that up with information you had seen. Maybe the story was describing conditions a couple of weeks ago and things have improved since and you could show me that. But it seems that you just made up your real-life example because it sounded good, and you dropped it like a hot potato the minute it was contracticted. Narische technical inaccuracy? Eretz Yisroel was your key supporting statement! How can anyone trust your main point when you undercut it with inaccurate proofs? If a rocket engineer points a rocket downward instead of upward on the launchpad and it then explodes in a giant fireball, was that a technical inaccuracy as well, and we should ignore it to praise the engineer for making such a beautiful rocket?

    #1940638
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @avram-in-md My supporting example in this particular comment was Israel which I was told some incorrect information about. My supporting evidence is the overwhelming opinion of Da’as Torah and secular medicine and the indisputable facts (yes indisputable. No, token handful of “expert” opinions on a quasi related matter doesn’t count) that the dangers of the vaccine pale in comparison to the dangers of allowing COVID-19 to continue unchecked.

    #1940890
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Before I respond to that, can I ask a few unrelated question?

    You can ask, it’s a free country, you’re allowed to dodge the comment and pretend you didn’t.

    #1940894
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the dangers of the vaccine pale in comparison to the dangers of allowing COVID-19 to continue unchecked.

    That might very well be true but it hasn’t been proven.

    #1940900
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    For some reason, although your positions on Covid are basically reasonable, the way you argue them, with made up facts, distortions of others’ statements, and not really addressing or listening to what others are saying, you weaken your position immensely.

    #1941082
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @daas-yochid I don’t want to put you on the spot, I just like to know where people stand on certain issues when having a discussion with them. If you don’t want to answer, that’s fine and good day.

    #1941094
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have no problem answering – Q anon are a bunch of loonies and yes, we landed on the moon – but the fact that you even ask is a deflection.

    #1941364
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I don’t understand,

    Did the gedolim say to take it (some even taking it themselves)

    If everyone took a wait and see approach no one would get it and we won’t get back to normal until most people take it

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