July 19, 2015 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #616049Torah613TorahParticipant
Is this a Torah concept?July 19, 2015 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1093416NechomahParticipant
I believe this would come under the category of “mitzvah habah al yedei aveirah..” No, the ends do not justify the means.July 19, 2015 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1093417
In the Torah, often, the rule is that the ends do justify the means.
i.e. lying for shalom.
A different kind of example that I don’t agree with, but some rule as such, is in the name of kiruv causing someone to be mechallel Shabbos (i.e. inviting him for Shabbos despite knowing he’ll probably drive there.)July 19, 2015 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1093418☕️coffee addictParticipant
gadol aveirah lishmah m’mitzvah shelo lishmahJuly 19, 2015 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1093419Sam2Participant
ca: Quotes without context are incredibly dangerous.
The answer to the original question is that it depends on the ends and the means. There are cases where yes and cases where no.July 19, 2015 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1093420
Exactly. So to answer Torah613: No, it is not a set Torah concept.July 19, 2015 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1093421pcozMember
The ends re-classify the means.July 19, 2015 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1093422👑RebYidd23Participant
Means need an end to justify them. E.g., I am walking to the pet store to buy food for my cockatiel. Without the end (which is obtaining food for my bird), going to the store and buying the food is unjustified. If I don’t have a purpose, it is wrong to make the trip.July 19, 2015 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1093423
What’s that got to do with the Torah?July 20, 2015 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1093424pcozMember
Torah is not a legal system, it is a thought system. So sevara which aligns with the Torah is Torah.July 21, 2015 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1093425catch yourselfParticipant
Torah is, first and foremost, a legal system – ?????? ?? ?? ???. Its Law governs every moment of a person’s life.
It is one which is an expression of Hashem’s Will, and which is designed to train and mold us in a specific mode of thought, but it is a legal system nevertheless.
I do not understand the idea that “sevara which aligns with Torah is Torah.” Much of the sevara expressed in the literature of Christianity aligns with Torah; would you apply this idea to that as well?
Rev S.R. Hirsch writes many times that “the ends justifies the means” is a decidedly un-Jewish concept. ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????.July 21, 2015 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1093426zogt_besserParticipant
ends sometimes justify means. yaakov avinu lies to get eisav’s berachah, yael lures in sisera in order to kill him and save klal yisroel (the source of aveirah lishma), you’re allowed to save someone’s life by breaking shabbos (means) so that they’ll go on and observe more shabbosos (end), at least acc. to one of the gemara’s explanations for pikuach nefesh being docheh shabbos.July 21, 2015 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1093427Torah613TorahParticipant
catch yourself, I like that answer.July 27, 2015 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1093428
Emes L’Ya’akov (Bereishis 27:12):July 27, 2015 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1093429
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