The Faces of Poverty in the Holy Land

gavra_at_work

You cant be serious.

Google A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift, he addresses Gavra At Work’s suggestion.

Parents giving up their kids is no solution. The Haredim need to go to work.

I love how the film manages to blame government cutbacks for Chareidi poverty, as if it’s the government’s function to support the Chareidim. It’s not. Nor is it mine. The system is imploding; there are simply too many learners and not enough earners.

“Exactly. Should have included it on the list as well. Thanks.”

You are welcome, but it seems to me that the gemara I quoted in eiruvin is contradictory in spirit to the one you quoted in kesuvos. Perhaps the point is that one should (or is certainly allowed to) treat his family like raven….but not worse than a raven. I can quote it in english if that helps.

“Black as a raven With whom do you find these? With him who for their sake rises early [to go] to, and remains late in the evening [before returning home

from] the schoolhouse. Rabbah explained: [You find these only] with him who for their sake

You see, while the gemara you quoted in kesuvos in pro-family-support at expense of everything else the one I quoted is certainly not. It is saying that the highest levels of Torah scholarship can only be found in someone who acts harsh towards his family by limiting his support of them and focusing instead on Torah scholarship.

Im not sure if you are being sarcastic but the gemara would certainly not condone child dumpster-diving. In fact, Rav Adda was telling his wife to go find cheap food for his children to eat as the conversation was between him and her- no child labor. He was not telling his children to do so. Also, according to Rashi’s second interpretation as well the food mentioned had to be processed and baked.

I think the point of this specific gemara is that for some families (not all) it is ok to “rough it out” and live at the poverty line for the sake of Torah scholarship. Though it is true that he never said to go take tzedaka. I do wonder if that would also apply in a prosperous secular society with the advent of advanced machinery and technology.

I suppose also this would only apply to people who learn as sincerely as Rav Adda. Most people who do not have that aptitude should work several hours instead even according to that gemara.

“Poverty” is hard to define. If you accept the standard of “middle class” from 50 years ago, there is virtually no poverty (either in Israel, or America). Even among frum Israelis, diseases related to affluence (e.g. diabetes, caused by having too much to eat) are common. Comparing a poor Israeli to, as an example, the first Baron Rothschild (late 18th century), there is much that Rothschild would view with envy when looking at a poor kollel family (better selection of foods and especially of fruits and vegetables, low infant and maternal mortality, antibiotics and vaccines, drinkable water, indoor plumbing, air conditiong, electric lights, transportation faster and more comfortable than horseback). The truth, is that 21st century people are living as well as kings were a few centuries ago – and that’s true even those who are mesiras nefesh with their parnassah to do mitsvos. Note how “schnorrers” come to America to ask money for luxuries (as they were defined a century ago) such as large apartments, fancy weddings, etc.

The real poverty is in places like north Tel Aviv or the secular neighborhoods and temples of America, where the people are totally impoverished of mitsvos and lead meaningless lives with no hope for the future (which explains why they don’t want children – to them the future is meaningless). We in the truely affluent neighborhoods such as Bnei Brak and Boro Park should pity them, but there isn’t much we can do to help. Their poverty is self-inflicted and the only solution is in their hands but they choose not to realize it.

rabbiofberlin: Actually, if you want to talk about strict halacha apposed to the spirit of the law, the gemara in kesuvos 49b is very clear on the matter. It clearly says that we CANNOT force a poor father to support his children and we CAN force rich people to support children who are not their own! Very interesting.

?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????

Rashi: ??? ????. ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????’ ???? ????

scroller: I believe we pasken like the Gemara which says a father must teach his son a trade, not like R’ Nehorai.

I dont think I am being disingenuous but I do love to see sources. I am showing sources in the gemara, not poskening halacha. You can also look at the source below: ??. ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????:

Also in the gemara in brachos you mentioned the maharsha says that a tzadik gamur can only learn Torah. Anyway, it’s an interesting conversation.

I found it, its actually on daf 65b. That is only for children under age 6 though. The rambam you mentioned actually brings down this very gemara saying they cannot be forced if they are not wealthy.

I still don’t see any sources that in anyway negate the gemara in eiruvin.

Well it’s really more a chiuv of the father to support his wife who in turn practically supports the child until 6. And it’s not until they grow up its until they mature (have pubic hairs- Rashi).

I said from the beginning that the sources I quoted were only for very dedicated people. Do such people exists today? Is so and so one of them? That is not for me to say.