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Four contemporary sovereign states contain portions of Eretz Yisroel. They are:
The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
The State of Israel
The State of Palestine
The Republic of Lebanon(Palestine is recognized by 143 out of 193 member states of the United Nations. Like Taiwan, Kosovo, Northern Cyprus and some other partially recognized states, it isn’t recognized by all members of the UN. This, though, isn’t the point of this thread. You can instead, if you so prefer, look at this discussion as there being only three sovereign states that contain portions of Eretz Yisroel.)
All four of the above states, contain land in their territories that are in Eretz Yisroel, as well as land that is in Chutz La’aretz. The only possible exception might be Palestine, which may all be in Eretz Yisroel. The State of Israel includes, for example, Eilat which is part of Chutz La’aretz. Jordan and Lebanon, like Israel, is partially in Eretz Yisroel and partially in Chutz La’aretz.
The Arab Republic of Egypt’s border with the State of Israel is not precisely on the Halachic borderline of Eretz Yisroel. We need additional clarification whether Egypt includes land in Eretz Yisroel or if the State of Israel contains land in Chutz La’aretz in the area surrounding its border with Egypt. Or both, perhaps.
All four (or, alternatively, all three or all five) — Lebanon, Israel and Jordan as well as Palestine and Egypt — are secular, non-Jewish states with all of them containing explicitly anti-Torah laws, regulations, rules, processes and customs. Most egregiously, of course, is the State of Israel which advances its false claim of being a so-called Jewish State, even though it publicly promotes and celebrates same gender toeiva, Chillul Shabbos — including among official entities in various localities, transportation and sports, the leaders of Israel have no compunctions publicly eating non-kosher foods and permitting the sale of non-kosher to other Jews for their consumption. As well as “Israel” having many other condoned, encouraged and even celebrated anti-Torah activities. The list of these crimes is endless.
It is, certainly, a greater mitzvah to live in the portions of Eretz Yisroel in Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and, possibly, Egypt (if applicable) than to live in the Chutz La’aretz portions of the State of Israel. If you’re going to start arguing that it is unsafe to live in the parts of Eretz Yisroel that are in Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine, then you’ll have to acknowledge that a Jew today is safer living in Russia, Cuba and even Iran than living in the State of Israel. (Which is why such a large number of Israeli citizens have procured for themselves and their families a foreign passport from countries in Europe, North American and South America, as a possible escape hatch. And so many Israeli expats permanently move out of Israel; you can find them living all over the US, Europe and Asia.)
In summation, none of the above countries, all of which contain land both in Eretz Yisroel as well as land in Chutz La’aretz, are objectively or halachicly better than the others. Indeed, the State of Israel is the worst of them all, as they are run by Mechallel Shabbos Jews who falsely advertise themselves as a Jewish State, whereas their laws are rife with anti-Torah provisions.
Unlike the others, the Zionist State has the additional “advantage” of being an idol (or at least part of an idol), and is also halachically not considered a State, like for dina diMalchusa dina. That’s in addition to the Zionist blasphemous and offensive lie that it is the “Jewish State” (both parts of that quote are false, as it happens, though the Jewish part is a far greater lie), as you pointed out.
What is the point of UJM’s message,
other than making yet another pointless redundant attack against Israel?In our times, there is a large organized movement to commit genocide against all Jews,
starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.Anyone who publicly attacks “The Zionists” is becoming a De Facto ally
of the large organized movement to commit genocide against all Jews,
starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.Therefore, anyone who publicly attacks “The Zionists” becomes
a rodaif and a mosair, because he joins himself to those people
who work to commit genocide against all Jews.You’re like the Meraglim who spoke bad of EY. Yerushalayim is in EY. Many Jews live there and overall pretty comfortably.
Joseph,
By all means, please make haste to fulfil this great mitzvah and move to the “State of Palestine”, along with your NK heroes. They’ll give you all a very warm welcome and New York won’t miss any of you.
Israel is a Jewish state, regardless of what you may think. Is it perfect? No, but there have been rulers who were far worse than what exists now, and it was still considered a Jewish state. Kings such as Yeravam, Menasheh, Achaz, and others, made it illegal to keep certain mitzvos. They were oved Avodah Zarah, and encouraged others to do so. Yet it was still a Jewish kingdom.
DaMoshe:
The big difference, of course, is that G-d made them kings and gave them a kingdom, as opposed to the Zionist “State” which has zero halachic legitimacy even as a secular State.lakewhut:
Not quite. The Zionists are much more like the meraglim, as the Zionists are the ones who insist that G-d can’t protect Jews without Zionism and its weapons. Shockingly, some frum Jews even believe this heresy.SQUARE_ROOT:
Let’s rewrite that to reflect Torah and reality, rather than Zionism.In our times, there is a large organized movement (Zionism, of course) to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Anyone who publicly supports the Zionists is becoming a de facto ally of that large organized movement to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Therefore, anyone who publicly joins the Zionists becomes a rodaif and a mosair, because he joins himself to those people who work to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews.
DaMoshe:
The ruler is not the point; the “State” and its ideology are the point; there has never been an ideology as poisonous and heretical as Zionism which redefines Jews and Judaism from Torah-based to idolatrous Nationalist land-based gentile-wannabe. Not even Yeravam ben Nevat went anywhere near that low. But the Zionist “State” is anyways forbidden by G-d, etc. unlike the ancient kings and their kingdoms.HaKatan, kings of Israel (as opposite of Yehuda) were self-appointed, starting with a Reaganesque revolt against high taxes by an unpopular King.
It is unclear if you can recognize “Palestine” and “Israel” since Palestine’s borders include all of the territory claimed by the Medinah. Also parts of Eretz Yisrael are probably also in Syria and Egypt (depending on whose views you hold by – it matters in terms of shmittah and holding 2nd day yuntuf).
Note the the word “sovereign” refers to a country (originally a king) being higher than any other king or state, including supremacy over any diety. Thus the concept of being “sovereign” is probably unacceptable to Jews, and Muslims, and anyone else who believes the creator of the world exercises any supervisory function over the world. According to Rashi, Ha-Shem is “sovereign” over the world, including Eretz Yisrael, and allows Jews to have rights there.
Hakatan, most of the malchei Yisroel were self-appointed reshoim. You need to learn NaCh.
And, yes, of course, according to your ideology, it is better to have kings-reshoim from a legitimate dynasty who killed Neviim or attempted to do so than to have Netanyahu.Hakatan Yerovam was not the worst of them.
HaKatan said:
“In our times, there is a large organized movement (Zionism, of course)
to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews,
starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.”==============================================
MY RESPONSE:
What you said is not even half-true, and not even half-of-half true.
If you actually believe that, then you are severely misinformed.
DaMoshe and Always_Ask_Questions just made very valid points
about the ancient kings of the Kingdom of Judah and
the Kingdom of Israel. But you refuse to acknowledge their
valid points, because doing so would attack your precious shittah.You also said [incorrectly] that:
“there has never been an ideology as poisonous and heretical as Zionism.”
I spent 20 years fighting against Jews for Cheeses,
and I can assure you that what you said is very far from true.Hundreds of secular Jews have become Baalei Teshuvah
during their time in the Israeli Army, another true fact
that you refuse to acknowledge, because it contradicts
your precious outdated shittah.I could say much more, if I wanted to, but it would be wasted on you.
UJM
You letter is a complete letter of pure Sinas Chinam against Israel and every yid living in Israel no matter which part of Israel it is. And with such Sinas Chinam it’s sad to face and say the truth but there’s absolutely no way that Hashem can send Mashiach today or any day soon when the Sinas Chinam in klal yisroel today is worse than in the days of the second Bais hamikdosh that was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam.
I pray that you realize quickly your mistake and wake up to face reality immediately if we ever want Mashiach to come already b’karov
What is it about Zionism that causes so many threads here in the ywn cr? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank. They aren’t heintigge tzaros.
Based on the maps in the chumashim, many more countries will have parts of Eretz Yisroel when moshiach comes. We will take them all.
IYH all of them will be ours soon.Who needs Hamas and Hezbolah as adversaries when we have more than enough adversaries in the CR. Perhaps Bibi needs to add the CR and other “frum” social sites publishing anti-tzionist hyperbole to the multiple border “fronts” where EY is defending its survival.
Joseph,
You’re absolutely spot-on with the quote from Shmiras Halashon. Given your deep-seated, evil hatred for anyone not like you, please expect constant mockery in response.
Dina de malhuta dina in EY nowadays is a mahloket – NOT like katan wants you to believe.
Existence of the State of Israel al pi halaha ,is a mahloket – NOT like katan wants you to believe.
—-
Living in one of the other states who occupy part of EY ,is fraught with pikuach nefesh.NOT like ujm would want you to believe.
Fact is that no yehudim live there .
ALL the yehudim in that part of the world ,happen to live in Israel and not in any of those other countries.
Why is that ?
.
In Tanach times, there were wicked Jewish kings in Eretz Yisrael who worshipped idols.
This included both kings of the kingdom of Israel and kings of the kingdom of Judah.
Yet even then, nobody ever said that Jews should not fight
to defend Eretz Yisrael, because their kings were wicked.In Tanach times, there were wicked Jewish kings in Eretz Yisrael who worshipped idols.
This included both kings of the kingdom of Israel and kings of the kingdom of Judah.
Yet even then, nobody ever said that Jews should sympathize
with the enemies of the Jewish people — or even worse, actually help them.===========================================
== When you publicly attack “The Zionists”, you help people
== who work and fight to commit genocide against all Jews.
==
== This makes you a very big rodaif and a very big mosair.
===========================================
== WHEN YOU PUBLICLY ATTACK “THE ZIONISTS”, YOU HELP PEOPLE
== WHO WORK AND FIGHT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE AGAINST ALL JEWS.
==
== THIS MAKES YOU A VERY BIG RODAIF AND A VERY BIG MOSAIR.
===========================================UJM, feel free to move there and take up residence. You will be mekayem yishuv eretz yisroel without having to give any money to the Zionists.
So Joseph, is your argument that we have a mitzvah to mock you?
It is clear that Hashem allowed the Zionists to be successful so Anti-Zionists could have an outlet.
Kafuy Tov like i’ve never seen before. Hashem gifted us with the ability to once again walk the land of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, to pray by kivre tzadikim, to have Yeshivot and thousands of Torah Learners in our land, and you throw it back in his face, no thanks, it’s better out here. The land of Israel is not a Rasha or Kofer and you literally just advocated for Jews to abandon it because they’ll be better off elsewhere. Before every expulsion and holocaust they were just as comfortable as you are right now. Your advantage is a well documented history of persecution of Jews in foreign lands yet you refuse to learn from it.
UJM
I’m afraid your mistaken the chofetz Chaim is referring to reshaim and kofrim FROM OTHER NATIONS other then yidden.
And this was the main reason why Yonah Hanavi ran away from Hashem when Hashem sent him on a mission to go to Nineveh and give over the dvar Hashem and bring them to Teshuva. And they were not Jewish. Cause Yonah was afraid it would be mekatraig on klal yisroel and Hashem would say look at the people of Nineveh doing serious Teshuva but my loving children klal yisroel won’t do serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation……. And Yonah Hanavi as every Jewish Navi loved Klal yisroel and would never be mekatraig on klal yisroel.
May we all wake up in today’s generation and face reality as we are in a time of serious horrific tragedies hitting klal yisroel and start doing serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.
Square Root:
What I wrote was absolutely true.From a spiritual perspective, Zionism is a heretical and idolatrous godless (unlike any Christian movement) land-based nationalist replacement theology for Judaism that claims to be the real Judaism – which is therefore far worse than Jews for J. It is strong in its State and that cancer R”L L”A has spread throughout the world. The actual damage done by Zionism to Jews and Judaism is orders of magnitude greater than Jews for J and all the rest.
From a physical perspective, Zionism has already caused (and then made worse) the Holocaust, and Jews around the world, including those on American College campuses, have been endangered simply due to Zionism and its endless wars.
No, the attempted point about the ancient break-off kingdom of the then tribes was not at all a valid point, as the navi told Yeravam that he would be appointed king over the new kingdom that would split from malchus yehuda – as opposed to the Zionists who rebelled against G-d in founding their “State” (and even Rabbi Kook never sanctioned violence to achieve a State). See how simple is that distinction?
It’s ironic that Zionist always bring up the teshuva movement there without acknowledging that the Zionists intentionally destroyed the Judaism of those Jews in the first place, after which that teshuva movement was and is then needed.
You could keep going, but you’re simply attempting to defend the indefensible.
LerntminTayrah
Let’s rewrite that to reflect reality: What is it about Zionism that causes people to post pro-Zionist nonsense on so many threads? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank during their respective times. Zionism is very much a current disaster for Klal Yisrael.Sam Klein: Easy there on the reflexive pro-Zionist genuflecting. His post was not at all sinas chinam, and it was not any type of sina and not against any Jew at all, for that matter. But since you brought up the problem of Mashiach being held back, that would be due to the Zionists and their “State”, of course, as the gedolim have written and as is fairly obvious to anyone who looks at the world from the perspective of Torah rather than, liHavdil, Zionism. May Hashem have mercy on all His children.
Gadolhadorah:
Who needs missionaries and other groups as adversaries when he have more than enough adversaries in the form of Zionism?
“EY” is not defending anything, and is no danger. It is instead the Zionist “State” is at war, as always, and as the gedolim predicted a century ago that would happen.UJM said:
“At the end of Shmiras HaLashon (Hilchos Rechilus 9:15), the Chofetz Chaim
writes that the prohibitions against Lashon Hara and Rechilus
do not apply to reshaim and kofrim and that it is,
in fact, a mitzvah to mock such persons:”“It is a mitzvah to make their false opinions public before all,
and shame them so that others do not learn from their evil deeds.”=========================================
MY RESPONSE:
[1] Most secular Jews in Israel today are Tinok SheNishba,
or close to Tinok SheNishba, so this does not apply to them.[2] When Jews are under intense attack,
both in Eretz HaKodesh and in the Exile,
that is THE WRONG TIME for Jews to publicly attack each other.In his Sefer HaMidot, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov ZTL ZYA taught that:
“When Jews are united, the Gentiles fear them.”[3] While mocking heretics is taught by our Torah,
it should not be done at a time in history when
there is a danger of a Jewish Civil War (G*D forbid)
with Jews fighting and killing each other (G*D forbid).yankel > Dina de malhuta dina in EY nowadays is a mahloket – NOT like katan wants you to believe.
You have a good point. We have Talmidei Chachomim in our times having very divergent views on the topic. It is fine, I think, for us to discuss strength of competing views but it is not possible to declare any of the acceptable views as A’Z and similar, implying that some observant and learned Jews are guilty, H’V, of A’Z. The mods here are pretty good at flagging inappropriate attitudes towards some T’Ch, but not towards all of them. I was not aware that halochos of LH and similar depends on whether a T’Ch in yeshivish/chasiddish/modern/torah-moddaic/dati leumi, etc.
Hakatan, STOP twisting things — MOST of the kings of the Malchus Yisroel were self-appointed.
The Zionists caused the Holocaust?!? Yea, right, all the other aveiros were insignificant, but the the Zionism…
And you need to calm down.Katan……You can rant all you want about the evil “Zionist State” but doubt Hamas really distinguishes Zionists from Satmar, NK, and various other Chareidi groups…..they would just as readily slit your throat without regard to your beliefs regarding the legitimacy of the medinah.
The stupidity is dumbfounding. Your definition of Zionism is warped. You refer to one specific segment of people. Todays definition of Zionism is so much broader and includes shomre Torah who love Eretz Yisrael. Please don’t paint Zionism with the brush of 1920, it earns you a reputation of one who hates Jews. The nafka mina here is not large. Would someone of your opinion dare to say they want the IDF to lose the war. Would you dare to say that all shomer Torah Jews should leave Israel? Practically your claim is that you don’t support the state of Israel and would discourage Aliyah for fear of becoming hiloni. The way you speak of this topic is absolutely Sinat Hinam and is identical to the reason Ribi Akivas students died. You are clearly expressing that your Torah opinion is greater than all others. The way you speak is so nauseating as if you’re doing it on purpose to upset most other Jews. The state of Israel is clearly the beginning of the Geula. If you don’t think so that’s fine. But just remember that the grandmother of Mashiah is Rut, whose husband wasn’t exactly the biggest Tzadik. Geula comes in strange ways. For you to demand of Hashem that it comes exactly how you want it because that’s the “Torah” perspective is stupefying.
Learntmin Tayrah “What is it about Zionism that causes so many threads here in the ywn cr? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank. They aren’t heintigge tzaros.”
simple, its always justifying their cushy life in america and their fear to truly live a jewish life with other jews in EY.. it is easier to just stay in chu’l with all the “services” and lachats… and argue about zionists.. its such stupidity and goes a lot deeper than this stupid argumentKatan gives the impression of being blind and deaf.
He doesn’t see the obvious pikuach nefesh straight in front of his eyes – blind r’l
He does not hear the Arabb Cry – that the “descendants of the apes and the pigs [the Jews]” will have to choose between the suitcase and the coffin.
We have every reason to take their threats at face value .if i recall in shut tzitz eliezer he calls for all jews to move to eretz yisroel – he writes that if the erliche yidden would move to eretz yisroel then there would be no secular state because the religious would be a very substantial percent of the population, the Yabia Omer writes that even though there are big yeshivos in america for every one that they save they lose 10 to intermarriage, Harav Chaim Kanievsky zatzal was instructing all yidden to move to eretz yisroel, i heard this personally from harav Aryeh Schechter zatzal , and last i think anyone who can should read the last drasha of Parshas Kedoshim in the sefer Tiferes Shimshon by Harav Shimshon Dovid Pincus zatzal to understand what is going on in the world right now
I encourage you to look up the sources on David Hamelech’s birth. Start with tehilim 51:7. Nobody believed David would be who he eventually became for the same reasons you’re stubbornness is holding your eyes shut. When we are finally redeemed the whole world will sing אבן מאסו הבונים הייתה לראש פינה, referring to all those who doubted Hashems salvation. One can only pray that you’re hatred turn to love for your fellow Jews who simply love Hashem and the land of Israel and believe that Hashem is guiding our current events and leading us towards the geula.
You forgot to add parts of Syria
Joseph,
Iran also has public executions, which you’d find very entertaining. So when are you and your NK heroes moving?
Meretz and labor wouldn’t but Likud and Otzma would. Would Gimmel do it that’s the question.
For UJM:
If a child were born deaf, and he was deaf his entire life,
would it be logical or fair to judge him by his knowledge of music?
Obviously not!Most Israelis alive today were raised by secular parents and attended only secular schools.
To judge people who were raised that way
by the laws of Shulchan Aruch, is not logical and not fair.Judging Jews who were secular their entire lives by the laws of Shulchan Aruch
is like judging a man who was deaf his entire life by his knowledge of music.
Both are not logical and both are unfair.UJM: Do you think you are smart for condemning the flaws of Jews who are Tinok SheNishba?
If you were a real tzadik, then you would strive with all your might to judge them favorably,
and avoid publicly mentioning their flaws.PS: In Iran, in recent years, hundreds of Mosques closed completely,
because millions of Iranian Muslims are quietly quitting Islam.Now we understand why megilah refers to jews as chachamim yodea itim – because Persians still don’t. They went against a Mishnah, organizing prayers after the crash, after the rasha went to gehinom already. Next time, they should daven before the crash. NK should teach them tefilas haderech
I love how Joe is making a comparison between an Iranian who at the time was missing after an accident, and his imagined scenario of Netanyahu being captured by the enemy. How can you compare those? Yes, the Iranians called for prayers. When a Jewish person goes missing, Jews daven. Look at how many people started wearing Tzitzis and wrapping tefillin because of the war!
If Iran thought Israel killed their president, you better believe they’d be attacking!If a man can do teshuva in his final days so can a country. No person is perfect and neither is Israel. But the stage is set. Either you acknowledge Hashems hand in this world or you don’t. What exactly does this stark contrast tell you? I can’t understand the point you’re trying to make.
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