The four “sons” – what about daughters?

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  • #1718374

    “The four sons” in Hagada – why not “daughters”?

    Is there a mitvah of sipur yetzias mitzrayim to daughters?

    #1718435

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: Please see…

    Bava Basra (16b)
    Berachos (60a)
    Nida (31b)
    Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20)

    #1718506

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Rebetzin,

    The reason it’s not daughters is because they’re busy cooking and serving to ask questions and the sons tell the daughters when they come back

    “You heard the hitting sound, that was abba knocking out jack’s teeth”

    #1718512

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, look also Hilchos Ishus (15,19) may be that is why it is called Nesuin, to elevate each other and put the other partner on a pedestal. Since sippur yetzias mitzraim is Torah, and girls where not commanded to be taught Torah, only boys are mentioned. It says בשביל נשים צדקניות נגאלו, so they are also included but man have to thank more for their redemption. The Chasam Sofer explains that by kabolas HaTorah it says אל תגשו אל האשה don’t rely on the zechusim of women but have your own.

    #1718513

    motchah11
    Participant

    Well, in my family the girls also asked the Mah Nishtana.

    #1718514

    Please explain what it says in these places. (Not a shiyur klali).

    #1718635

    Reb. are you ignoring the passuk…v’hegadita lvincha.

    #1718654

    lowerourtuition11210 – “Reb. are you ignoring the passuk…v’hegadita lvincha”,

    Are you serious?

    Does Bnei Yisroel exclude women?

    The possuk says בנים אתם לה’ אלוקיכם, that includes all genders!

    #1718655

    lasken – “sippur yetzias mitzraim is Torah, and girls where not commanded to be taught Torah, only boys are mentioned”

    Are you serious?

    Women are michuyav in ALL mitzvos of pessach!

    Do you exclude them from sippur yetzias mitzrayim (both the asking and the answering)?

    V’higadata l’bincha is a special mitzva, unrelated to Talmud Torah and chinuch haBonim.

    #1718664

    lasken – BTW, it is b’feirush in Mogen Avrohom (and MB) in s. 471 s”K 7, based on RAMA that a young son who reached the age of sipur yetzias mitzrayim must not be given matza on erev pessach so that the matzah should be new to him (when he asks the questions), adds the M.A. the same also for a young DAUGHTER – there is no difference!

    #1718665

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, look at the Sefer Hachinuch 21, the chinuch says yes, women are mechuyav but the Minchas Chinuch asks why?

    #1718668

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, it says כה תאמר לבית יעקב ותגיד לבני ישראל look at Rashi by Kabolas Hatorah that Beis Yaakov refers to the women whereas Bnei Yisroel refers to the men. Once the women agree, you will not have the Etz Hadaas problem and they will encourage the men. The women tell lightly and the men harshly.

    #1718675

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I was questioning if sippur yetzias mitzraim is a responsibility on the father. There is a certainly a chiyuv on them like any other mitzva on Pesach.

    #1718674

    lasken – “RG, look at the Sefer Hachinuch 21, the chinuch says yes, women are mechuyav but the Minchas Chinuch asks why?”

    There are sifrei lomdos, and sifrei halacha l’maaseh.

    The Oruch HaShulchan is a sefer of halacha l’maaseh.

    The Oruch Hashulchon s. 472, ss. 15 explicitly writes that women are michuyav in ALL the mitzvos of leil pessach including saying the Hagadah, and if they can’t say it themselves, they may hear it from someone else.

    Chazal say that matzah is called “Lechem Oni” because we speak on the matzah the Haggada. Since women are michuyav in matxa: lechem oni, they must also speak over it the hagada.

    Further, the RAMBAM in Sefer HaMitzvos (Mitzva Assay 248) lists all mitzvos that women are pottur and all that they are chayav, states that women ARE michuyav in Mitzva Assay 157: Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim.

    #1718683

    thinker123
    Participant

    See aruch hashulchan end of siman 472

    #1718686

    motchah11
    Participant

    @laskern – What is the eitz hadaas problem?

    #1718696

    Are the Four Sons over bar-mitzvah?

    If under bar mitzvah – can one son be a “rasha”?!

    If over bar mitzva, the chochom MUST actually DO all the hilchos pessach, so why is he being taught NOW, when he should have been taught as a kotton higiya l’chinuch?!

    #1718733

    RG: OBviously not as we are told Sheheino yodea lishol. No again you and your feminist agenda want to interpret l’vincha as children and not son as is the literal meaning. And the mishna in pesachim (10:4) says. “מָזְגוּ לוֹ כוֹס שֵׁנִי, וְכָאן הַבֵּן שׁוֹאֵל אָבִיו are you going to interpret BEN as daughter too?

    #1718743

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Not sure what the question is
    שו”ע תעב-יד
    גם הנשים חייבות בארבע כוסות ובכל מצות הנוהגות באותו הלילה
    מ”ב
    (מה )
    מצות הנוהגות וכו’ כגון מצה ומרור ואמירת הגדה

    #1718740

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, did you read what I wrote just before you? Is there a mitzva on the father to tell yetzias mitzraim to the daughter? She has a mitzva like other mitzvas on pesach to speak about it but does the father have the mitzva?

    #1718770

    owerourtuition11210 – I will interpret BEN Noach to include all genders.

    ALso BEN Adom to include all.

    And BEN Olom Habah to include…yep.

    Get the point?

    #1718769

    lasken – did you not see that the Oruch Hashulchan clearly writes in s. 473, ss. 21:
    ואם אין לו בן – תשאל הבת, so if the DAUGHTER asks, obviousley the Father must answer her!

    #1718751

    I love your raya from BEN that it must mean a male and not female. Mamash geon’us!!

    Let’s follow that “raya”:

    Is a BEN Noach only a male and not a female?

    Is a BEN Adom only a man and not a woman?!

    Does בני בכורי ישראל excluding of women?!

    Your comment is gevaldig!!

    #1718898

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, that is chiyuv is also on the himself, if there is no daughter, the father.

    #1719013

    lasken – indeed, ומה שאמר הכתוב לבנך, דלאו דוקא בנו, אלא אפילו עם כל בריה (Sefer HaChinuch), As the Medrash expands the והיה כי ישאלך בנך מחר לאמר chiyuv that “son” is not a requirement: והגדת לבנך – אף על פי שאינו שואלך. אין לי אלא בזמן שיש לו בן, בינו לבין עצמו בינו לבין אחרים מנין? תלמוד לומר “ויאמר משה אל העם זכור את היום הזה”

    The issue is, is there ANY requirement for “daughters” (as questioned by Minchas Chinuch).

    The position I stated, is that since a DAUGHTER must also ask (if there is no son), indicates that a daughter is part of the והיה כי ישאלך בנך מחר לאמר. Namely, that בנך includes all “children” (except that a son has priority).

    #1719119

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, you are saying that whoever asks you must answer.

    #1719201

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I meant obviously the father must answer.

    #1719208

    lasken – “if there is no daughter, the father” No, if no daughter, the wife asks.And only then, he asks himself and answers his own questions (because the tzuras haMitzva is b’ofen kashya v’ tirutz).

    #1720008

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, the father is asked not the mother.

    #1720074

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    rg: I believe it is time for you to take a trip to the past, find the baal hagadah and ask him the question directly. then come back and tell us the answer.

    #1720040

    laskern – “RG, the father is asked not the mother”

    Review the halchos.

    Connect the dots:

    Women are michiyuv in all mitzvos of leil pessach.
    One of the mitzvos a women is mechuyov is sippur yetziyas mitzrayim.
    The mitva of sippur yetziyas mitzrayim is strucured as questions and answers.
    The questions are asked to the one who tells the story of yetziyas motzrayim.
    If all is correct, as stated in Shulchan Oruch, then the son (or daughter) asks the mother (if there is no father)..

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