February 15, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #595045canineMember
It is, of course, just stating the obvious. But I am still amazed every time I learn a Gemorah how there is not a single extra word contained within the entire Gemorah! The conciseness is truly something amazing to behold! Each word has profound meaning.
There is truly nothing outside the Torah like it. Where else can one find an author that can claim that the work could not be reduced by even a single unnecessary word?
And to think the Gemorah was written a “mere” 1500 years ago? The amazement increases. And not to mention Rashi, authored a “mere” 900 years ago, which too has not a single extraneous word! Truly amazing to read the holiness within every word!February 15, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #960506ZeesKiteParticipant
Welcome to the club!February 15, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #960507AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
Is there ANY other “book” ever written that can be read and re-read and studied and re-studied for THOUSANDS of years, and STILL, to this very day, be finding new and deeper meaning and understanding in it!?!?!
Hafoch ba, v’hafoch ba, d’kula ba.February 15, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #960508Pashuteh YidMember
Let me add one of PY’s remazim.
The gemara on top of page 93a in Sanhedrin says Gedolim Tzaddikim Yoser Mimalachei Hashareis.
Roshei Teivos of first two words are Gimmel and Tzadi. Gematria 93 (same as page number).
Gematria of first word on page which is “Gedolim” is also 93.February 15, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #960509WolfishMusingsParticipant
how there is not a single extra word contained within the entire Gemorah!
From whence do you know this?
I was taught that the Tana’im were purposely concise. The Amoraim, however, were not — in fact, the word Amoraim comes from the word for “to speak” — i.e. they were not deliberately concise in their words.
The WolfFebruary 15, 2011 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #960510well meaning busy bodyMember
Not being concise is not necessarily synonymous with superfluousFebruary 15, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #960511Pashuteh YidMember
There is a mayseh brought down from the Vilna Gaon in which I think Reb Chaim Volozhin came to him and said he learned Masechta Sukka 14 times. The Gaon asked him how many times is Abaye mentioned, how many times is Rava mentioned? How many times is Sukka spelled with a vav, and how many times without.
He said the number of times with a vav was equal to the number of sukkos kesheiros in the mesechta; and the number without a vav was equal to the number of sukkos pesulos. (I also heard it may be the gematria of sukka with and without a vav that corresponds to the numbers of kesheiros and psulos.) I don’t know which is correct, or if I’m saying either of them right.February 15, 2011 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #960512observanteenMember
It never ceases to amaze me how somebody who studies Torah can help you out in any tough situation. The chachma that one gets when learning Torah is unbelievable!!! Ashreicha to those who merit to spend their time learning our precious Torah!!February 15, 2011 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #960513charliehallParticipant
“there is not a single extra word contained within the entire Gemorah!”
This one is difficult.
First, there are in fact entire passages that are repeated word for word. AFAIK, nobody has ever drawn halachic or hashkafic conclusions from the fact that the gemara sometimes repeates itself.
Second, we aren’t even sure of the correct text of the gemara. Some rishonim are known to have had gemara texts that vary from our standard contemporay text.February 16, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #960514WolfishMusingsParticipant
Not being concise is not necessarily synonymous with superfluous
True, but that still doesn’t show that there are no superfluous words.
The WolfFebruary 16, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #960515doctormdmdMember
our daf yomi group is always on the lookout for some connection to the parsha, current events,etc.
it is amazing how often we find something!September 28, 2012 9:06 am at 9:06 am #960516ChortkovParticipant
Doctor MDMD: The Chasam Sofer says that if you come across something from the parsha in your gemara, it is a siman you are learning Torah Lishma.September 28, 2012 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #960517frummy in the tummyParticipant
pashuteh – I don’t know if anybody on this thread is still interested, but I just heard your vort last night, and it was presented as the gematria vort that you parenthetically mentioned. That said, I don’t believe it’s true until someone counts them out for me. Frankly, I think gematrias are generally extremely flimsy; they are often wrong, even by more than the “off-by-one” rule (which in and of itself drastically reduces the impressiveness of gematria in general).
I don’t see any reason to claim the gemara is not superfluous, or even that it has no mistakes. I think it has extreme value and teaches us a many important lessons, but I personally believe that labeling something as ‘infallible’ when there is no reason to do so just causes problems that otherwise would not have existed.June 21, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #960518LanderTalmidParticipant
An interesting concept to consider-
Since the Torah, Hashem’s “knowledge”, is infinite it is therefore indivisible, since infinity cannot be divided. If so how can there be such a concept as a “chelek/portion” in Torah and how can the Torah be divided into Masechtos, Sforim, Sdarim…..? The answer is that the Torah only has finite dimensions from our perspective. However, one who delves deeper and deeper into it discovers how every part of torah can be somehow connected to every other part. This exposes him to the amazing paradox that not only is the Torah so enormous but it is completely interwoven into itself and forms one perfect whole.June 23, 2013 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #960519SlichosGenendelMember
As usual, when someone says something good and true, along come the Apikursim to tear it down
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