The God Squad

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Rants The God Squad

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 70 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1292369

    Avi K
    Participant

    by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky

    To get right to the point, the obsession with the level of religious observance of the Kushner couple is unseemly, repugnant, embarrassing, and a poor reflection on the critics who are oblivious to the gross violations of Halacha they themselves are committing. Regarding the celebrity couple, every morsel they consume, every outfit they wear, every word they utter and every Shabbat or holiday they observe is accompanied by the intense scrutiny of busybodies whose own knowledge of halachic methodology ranges from woefully inadequate to utterly non-existent. They deserve better, as do the Jewish people and the world., and they should be left alone.

    If the couple would suddenly announce that they are no longer “Orthodox” because they find too many Orthodox Jews narrow-minded, provincial, intolerant and judgmental, I, for one, would not blame them. Of course, they have too much class to do that, and in any event, it is foolhardy to eschew the Torah and G-d’s service because of the depredations of some Jews. Fortunately, most of the nitpicking has come not from our world (some has, to our dismay) but from the general universe of Trump haters. The critics generally fall into three categories: Jews who pretend they are defending G-d’s honor, inveterate Trump haters, and the general media.

    The shallowness of the media is unsurprising and therefore not disappointing. But the first category is most troubling – those religious Jews, whoever they may be, who sit back, smirking and smug, passing judgment on the religiosity of others and determining who is or isn’t in the fold, as they see it.

    These self-styled guardians of the faith and keepers of the flame – the God Squad – should be aware of the number of violations, sins and misdemeanors that they are committing: lashon hara and rechilut (disparaging talk without any benefit), failure to judge another person favorably, failure to love another Jew, desecration of G-d’s Name, distorting the Torah, tormenting a convert and failure to show extra love for a convert, inappropriate rebuking of another Jew, not judging another person until you stand in their place, and others. Perhaps they should look in the mirror before gazing out their window at others.

    Another group consists of those who despise all things Trump, have lost all sense of reason and balance, and hold everyone in the Trump camp to impossible standards of conduct and even decrying the permissible as forbidden and unprecedented. (E.g., Trump revealed classified information (!) and created a “back channel” (!) to another country! Well, yes, like every administration has had since the beginning of the Republic.) This group’s animus finds its way into the two shrillest sets of critics: the general media and the secular Jewish press.

    The general media can be forgiven their ignorance of Torah, Halacha, and the arcana of Jewish observance. As the modern media is overwhelmingly secular and often anti-religious in outlook and practice, the information at its disposal is limited and their knowledge of the facts necessarily superficial. “Car or plane + Shabbat = bad” is the simplest equation and some Jews get dispensations if they know the right people and are important enough. That’s about the extent of their knowledge. One cannot expect any deeper understanding from the general media.

    Sadly, this does not apply to the secular Jewish press. As Jews, they are obligated to study Torah, understand it, practice it and honor it. But their ignorance of Torah is breathtaking and as simplistic as that of the general media. They are more affronted, apparently, by the nuances of some possible rabbinic prohibitions than by any number of gross violations of Torah prohibitions that they routinely celebrate. The litany of sins endorsed, the disparagement of the Torah, and the desecration of G-d’s Name engendered thereby, are of no concern at all. This is despicable and outrageous.

    A brief primer on the methodology of Jewish law might be helpful to the layman. Judaism has no system of allowances, indulgences or dispensations. What we do have is a sophisticated system of law and custom that govern our lifestyle that often results in a variety of rabbinic opinions on some issues owing to the disparate intellects G-d granted us. Additionally, the competing values that present themselves in a particular case can often result in different answers being propounded to different people on facts that are similar but not identical. By way of analogy, two people can have the exact same illness and yet the doctor might prescribe two different drugs to those people. Why, you ask? (The media would just blaze the headline: “Doctor prescribes different medication to patients with SAME illness!!”)

    The answer is that every question is asked in a certain context, and that context reflects the competing values. Some of the competing values that can intrude on what might seem to the layman to be a straightforward question of “do or don’t” or “permissible or forbidden,” are the potential or actual threat to life or well-being, the avoidance of a great financial loss, the respect we owe other human beings, the public (versus the private) need, an intimate relationship with the governing authorities, the honor of Heaven, biblical v. rabbinic prohibitions, active violations v. passive violations, and a host of others.

    One would think that with the establishment of the State of Israel and the ongoing integration of halachic norms into the daily rhythms of a modern state that even secular Jews would develop a greater awareness of how Halacha accommodates the needs of a modern state in an open and natural way. The provision of necessary services does not end when Shabbat starts. It didn’t stop even in ancient times. It is a denigration of Halacha to suggest that a modern Torah state cannot function in the absence of non-Jews or not-yet-religious Jews to provide those services – military, police, diplomatic, medical, nursing, electricity, etc. This should be obvious. Already in ancient times the Sages permitted defending the border on Shabbat against incursions of marauders who came for property and not to take life, as maintenance of the Jewish polity is itself another implicit value. A Jew need not accept being robbed or burglarized every Shabbat even when there is no threat to life or limb. Jewish soldiers and police officers are dispatched to protect streets and parks on Shabbat; we don’t demand that all Jews stay home so as not to require security. These are not violations of Shabbat but actually the fulfillment of the Shabbat laws.

    I do not know all the facts and circumstances of the halachic questions that were (or weren’t) asked in the matters herein but nothing I have seen or heard sounds implausible to anyone with knowledge of halacha who lives in the real world and recognizes how halacha applies in that real world. There are some observant physicians who engage in far greater violations of Shabbat on a weekly basis than anything that has happened to our protagonists here, and with less justification, although by no means does that apply to every observant physician.

    Every legal system encounters conflicts of laws and values, and all contain mechanisms by which those conflicts are resolved; certainly, Halacha does. Only a person who dwells in an ivory tower and is detached from the arena of activity imagines that real life is free of such tensions. It is important to note that such resolutions are not always uniform – in any legal system – and will often vary based on the slightest difference in facts. That is why Jews are required to ask qualified experts how those conflicts should be resolved and different Jews can get different answers from different rabbis to what seem to be the exact same questions. Those rabbis whose lives are dedicated to the study of Torah and service of the people of G-d are best suited to answer those questions, not the self-styled God Squad.

    If the nitpicking and backstabbing weren’t bad enough, the religious critics are unwittingly positing that a full Torah life is inconsistent with a modern state, which is itself a disparagement of the Torah. They might be waiting for Moshiach without realizing that the same issues will exist in Messianic times. Thus the differences in halachic treatment for individuals as individuals and individuals who are serving a public role as well.

    We should start minding our own business and worry first about our own piety and practice. “Adorn (i.e., perfect) yourself and after that adorn others” (Bava Metzia 107b). It is very timely and sagacious advice. And this has less to do with one’s feelings about this President and his family than it does with how we show our love for G-d, Torah and our fellow Jews. These issues transcend the couple in question and apply to many people in sundry communities, and religious Jews especially should be mindful of the pejorative image that can be created through untoward hypercriticism.

    Rather than be condescending, vindictive and sanctimonious, we should be supportive, understanding and tolerant. Let us leave the former to the media. The ways of our Torah are the paths of pleasantness, peace and mutual respect.

    #1292388

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    HAHAHA
    thanks for sharing!

    Is the the same fellow who critizices “Open Orthodox” right and left?

    Pot, meet kettle

    #1292390

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    He is completely consistent in his disdain for Open Ortjodox in both instances. Who do you think was all up in arms about the Kushners, it was those self righteous phonies of the OO ilk.

    #1292395

    Moshe1994
    Participant

    @ubiqutin Here I copied and pasted an article from the Jewish Journal about the founder of Open Orthodoxy “Rabbi” Avi Weiss.

    The Agudath Israel Council of Torah Sages has issued a statement suggesting that a New York rabbi should no longer be considered Orthodox because of his decision to ordain a woman.

    Last month, Rabbi Avi Weiss announced that one of his female students would now be known as rabba—a feminized version of rabbi—replacing her previous title of “maharat.” He declared in a statement that the name change “makes it clear that Sara Hurwitz is a full member of our rabbinic staff” at Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, a Modern Orthodox synagogue in the Bronx where he is the spiritual leader.

    The Agudath Israel council, comprised of leading haredi rabbis, declared in its statement Thursday that “these developments represent a radical and dangerous departure from Jewish tradition and the mesoras haTorah, and must be condemned in the strongest terms.” The statement, which was signed by 10 members of the council, added: “Any congregation with a woman in a rabbinical position of any sort cannot be considered Orthodox.”

    Hurwitz, who has served at the Hebrew Institute for nearly seven years, performs some rabbinic duties, but cannot perform others because of her gender, including acting as a witness, leading religious services and being counted in a minyan.

    In recent years, a handful of prominent mainstream Modern Orthodox synagogues have hired women for roles like Hurwitz’s, in which they carry out certain functions that historically were the sole domain of male rabbis, from offering guidance in spiritual or Jewish legal matters to teaching classes and delivering lectures.

    Agudath Israel spokesman Rabbi Avi Shafran said that the council’s objection to Hurwitz’s situation is that she is considered a “full member” of the rabbinic staff, in violation of the Orthodox value of “tzniut,” or modesty, for women.

    “Some of the roles intended for the ‘rabba’ are in fact roles that women even in the Haredi community have played for centuries, such as counseling and offering wise advice,” he said. “ Others, though, are not, especially those that thrust a woman into a public venue.”

    The council also objects, Shafran added, because any change in Orthodox norms must be backed by a “world-class Torah decisor,” and no such authority has lent his name to Wiess’s actions.

    Meanwhile, The New York Jewish Week is citing an unnamed source close to Weiss as saying that The Rabbinical Council of America, the Modern Orthodox rabbinical group, is considering kicking Weiss out of its organization. Like many members of the RCA, Weiss received his ordination from the Yeshiva University-affiliated Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary.

    #1292466

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People who might go to an OO place of worship do not care what the Agudah says and in fact may even take it as a Badge of honor if they are thrown out. Do you really think Reform Clergy people care that the Agudah does not recognize them in the US (Israel is another issue)

    The founder of Recustructionism was thrown out out JTS and started him own movement so you never want to create a martyr

    #1292457

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    NDG

    No he is inconsistent. Because he like Trump.

    Words have to have meaning if I say I am fish it isnt “judgmental” of you to point out that I dont live in water. If a group claims to be orthodox” it isnt judgmental to point out they dotn adhere to orthodox tennets. ditto for an individual who doesnt follow kashrus, Shabbos (if only it was just being driven in a car or plane, Id love to hear how the release of tapes that made his FIL look bad on a Friday are docheh shabbos, maybe I need a new Rav) a minimal standard of tznius. Now dont confuse thsi with judging, I dont know what I would do in such a situation, and it is possible I would fail the difficult nissayon they are in.

    The author write “If the couple would suddenly announce that they are no longer “Orthodox” because they find too many Orthodox Jews narrow-minded, provincial, intolerant and judgmental, I, for one, would not blame them”
    This is nonsense. IF they announced they were no longer Orthodox I would wonder when were they orthodox?

    “Rather than be condescending, vindictive and sanctimonious, we should be supportive, understanding and tolerant.”

    I agree we should be supportive and understanding. But that doesnt mean we have to redife what it means to be Orthodox. The Kushners may be absolutely wonderful people they may be tzadikim gemurim doing much work for the klal, but Orthodox they arent. Much Like I may be a wonderful person, but I am not a fish

    #1292484

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, Rabbi Pruzansky attacked OO because it is a movement. Moreover, it has given general legitimacy to serious Torah prohibitions. The Kushners do not pretend to represent any religious movement nor do they publicize their religious views. Those armchair poskim who criticize them do so not only without a license to pasken but without knowing the details of their questions. Interestingly they are silent about “frum” crooks. I am reminded of the story of the bachur whose milk was constantly stolen despite being marked “private – no permission to drink” until he marked it “chalav stam”. By doing so they not only violate serious Torah prohibitions ben adam l’chaveiro but undermine the entire system of pesak. This is not Orthodox behavior.

    #1292397

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim disagrees with R. Pruzansky. He’s incorrect about the Halacha regarding the first group. Mr. Kushner (her personal status is at best uncertain) has no right to violate rabbinical commandments, let alone the biblical commandments the couple routinely and publicly transgress with their chazer eating, church attending, Shabbos violating ways. There was no outstanding need for him to take a job requiring such transgressions. The Chofetz Chaim rules we are to condemn such repeated willful public violations of these serious transgressions.

    What’s even more shocking is this rabbis statement that he could understand if Mr. Kushner became, officially, a fully non-observant transgressor of all of Halacha rather than the, supposedly, only limited violations he currently transgresses.

    #1292505

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi

    “The Kushners do not pretend to represent any religious movement”

    they may not claim to represnt, but to many they do

    ” nor do they publicize their religious views.”

    they do (At least Ivanak does)

    ” Those armchair poskim who criticize them do so not only without a license to pasken but without knowing the details of their questions. ”

    You dont need a license to pasken to know that dealing with the aftermath of a potentially damaging tape isnt docheh Shabbos. Nor do the details matter regarding their non-adherance of Kashrus.

    “Interestingly they are silent about “frum” crooks.”
    Who is the they?

    I am reminded of the story of the bachur whose milk was constantly stolen despite being marked “private – no permission to drink” until he marked it “chalav stam”. ”

    That is a classic story. Though Im not sure which Bachur JAred is in that story since Lo sochlu neveila is a possuk no less than lo sigzol.

    “By doing so they not only violate serious Torah prohibitions ben adam l’chaveiro but undermine the entire system of pesak. ”

    how?

    “This is not Orthodox behavio”

    Nu so they arent Orthodox, sadly many Jews arent. At least he supposedly keeps some mitzvos. they are hardly the first non-orthodox Jews. Lets stop pretending they are Orthodox and move on, and focus on ourselves. But their is no reaso nto pervert the Torah and say that they are ok becuase they are part of Trump’s circle

    #1292515

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Kushners have never said they are Orhtodox, they said they are Observent. As Has Joe Liberman. He never said he was Orthodox, only observent.

    BTW The Kushers are not Orhtodox. You can google about the restaurants that they go to and the wine that they drank. it is not a secret.

    #1292528

    mentsch1
    Participant

    ZD and others
    I just googled (as you suggested) the Kushners eating habits
    And though they eat in non kosher restaurants they are on record as eating salads etc
    And considering the money they have, maybe they bring their own mashgiach and plates.
    I just don’t understand the hate. Granted they might not be frum enough for an Agudah, but were is the proof of open transgression?

    #1292534

    mw13
    Participant

    I can never get over the hilarious irony of self-righteously bashing others for the crime of… self-righteously bashing others.

    #1292541

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    metsch1

    ” but were is the proof of open transgression?”

    Yes
    “I just don’t understand the hate”

    I dont understand the support. Again this isnt about judging and I dont know that I would be better. There are plenty Jewish Celebrities that dont keep shabbos. nobody gets excited when Jerry Seinfeld drives on shabbos nor when Jon Stewert eats Shrimp. They arent ORthodox, they arent our role models and we move on. We dont say maybe the shrimp are vegan and he has a traveling mashgiach (Seriously?)\
    ditto for the Kushners, they arent orthodox (and Zdad may be right that they dont claim to be) thats it finnito end of story, theres no need to harp on every transgression of theirs, let it go (on this I agree with the OP). Why the need to come up with absurd defenses for at best some of their actions. Is it their connection to Trump? (and no it isnt out of desire to be dan lekaf zechus)

    #1292542

    Joseph
    Participant

    mentsch, is repeatedly and openly driving on Shabbos, going to church for Christian services and eating many treif meals in public not proof of open transgressions?

    #1292551

    mentsch1
    Participant

    They don’t drive on Shabbos, they get driven (there is a difference)
    And were is the proof they eat treif?
    As for going to churches, and flying on Shabbos etc. they (through the rabbis they consult) probably have given them heterim since they are conducting matters of state.
    Rav Shlomo Zalmen is on record for allowing MK’s to call him on Shabbos when conducting matters of state.
    We aren’t talking about charedim here. If the very modern orthodox rabbis with which they consult allow these things, then they re following psak. You may not agree with the psak, but they are following their chiyuv to follow a rabbi.
    And they are constantly on record as having discussed things with rabbis.
    Is it her fault that the rabbi who sponsored her geyris told her that there is nothing wrong with her manner of dress? (and he did, and he told her bais din that he did) As far as she is concerned she is good girl and those of us in Brooklyn are just machmir.

    #1292560

    Joseph
    Participant

    mentsch, he’s been driven many times on Shabbos. These are far from emergencies. He’s also flown on Shabbos to Saudi Arabia. And eaten treif meals, in public, served by Saudi Arabia, the Vatican, etc. As well as treif served in the White House. And went to treif restaurants with his wife for their anniversary long before Trump even ran for President. This has all been on camera.

    Maybe the guy in your neighbourhood who works on Shabbos and eats chazer also asked a shaila and got a heter for all his aveiros brabim bfarhesya.

    #1292569

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not the driving , flying or doing things relatied to the government on Shabbos. there very well might be a heter for that

    There is no heter for eating Shrimp at a treif restaurant in Rome. There are some very nice Kosher restaurants there with really good food. There is no heter for taking photographs on Shabbos at the White house

    #1292574

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    When Rav Elazar Shach gave a speech in 1990, lambasting secular israelis, calling them breeders of pigs and rabbits, (which later became known as the famous “rabbits and pigs speech”) the Lubavitcher Rebbe came out, calling for rav shach to apologize and saying that its not the way to be mekarev yidden.
    the Rebbe’s approach to bringing yidden closer to yiddishkeit was very different to Rav shach’ s. it was not geared toward criticism as Rav shach’s approach (or reproach). telling them off and pointing out their wrongdoings did absolutely NOTHING to help the cause. So the point is basically to stop mocking Jared and Ivanka’s way of living a Jewish life. When they see the public’s opinion about them, one can expect them to drop their Jewish obsevance COMPLETELY. I, for one am sure that with time, they will gradually increase in their Jewish observance and all this talk about “open transgression” will drop dead.

    #1292575

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq, you realize surely that someone who isn’t Orthodox can’t convert a non-Jew to be able to marry her if she doesn’t plan to keep Orthodox Judaism. So on top of everything else you can add the transgression of marrying a non-Jewess.

    mentsch, if the converting rabbi incorrectly informs a potential convert that she needn’t keep certain fundamental Jewish laws and as a result she undergoes the conversion intending to not keep those certain laws, the conversion has no validity. A beis din in Eretz Yisroel years ago declared invalid thousands of Russian “conversions” for this exact reason.

    By the way, that same rabbi who did her conversion himself went to church for Christian services in honor of Obama’s first inauguration. And even the RCA, which he is a member of, publicly condemned him for doing so. Chief Rabbi Lord Jacobovitz also declined attending Charles and Diana’s wedding (by telling them not to invite him so he shouldn’t have to formally decline) since he know her couldn’t attend church even for the Queen’s honor.

    #1292582

    I saw the title and was worried that someone had made
    a documentary about tznius committees or some such.
    (Is an interfaith talk show actually more worrying? )

    #1292586

    If someone is an open transgressor, and is not known to ever
    have not been, would that call their conversion into question?

    #1292585

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “As far as she is concerned she is good girl and those of us in Brooklyn are just machmir.”

    she may be a very good girl. she may be a tzadekes who simply doesnt know better, with schar in olam haba that will outweigh all of ours. I dont know and I agree that isnt my business

    The only point I am commenting on is whether she is orthodox. And the answer is no. And I dont understand whayt drives people to bend over backwards to redifne “Orthodox” for them. If Iasked you out of context whther a couple who gets driven on shabbos, texts, talks on phone, eats trief and wears extremely revealing outfitsis Orthodox. yo uwould say no. you wouldnt say well does their Rabbi let them do those things.? this is what confuses me

    whats worse is it confuses others.
    I know of employees who were asked by their employers who dont understand the ideas of “different levesl” why they could drive on Shabbos and these employees have to leave early. Lets stop perpetuating this myth stop with the chilul Hashem, they are not Orthodox though they may be wonderful people

    #1292596

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    ” if she doesn’t plan to keep Orthodox Judaism”
    I do realize that, though I dont know what she planned on keeping, nor do I know whether she kept some standard of orthodoxy at some point. What I do know is what I see now

    #1292605

    mentsch1
    Participant

    R4 and others
    I’m not “bending over backwards” to defend them
    What I am actually doing is bending over backwards to defend their children
    Who are considered Jewish by some very chashuva people in YU
    All the armchair rabbis who are calling into question the Jewishness of her children (by implying Yael is not Jewish) are not only contradicting the psak of the bais din but also committing a grievous error
    I would like to suggest that before committing such an averah, one should perhaps call the bais din and ask if they consider the children jewish

    #1292607

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Ubi
    You don’t ask sheylos out of context
    And you are flat out wrong
    The easiest thing to defend is their being flown on shabbos
    first , what is the issur d’orysa on flying on shabbos?
    Second, they were discussing matters of state that almost certainly involved Jewish issues and Rav Shlomo zalmen has already ruled on this
    They don’t have to follow your orthodox viewpoint. They are also in a unique position that gives them unique heterim.

    #1292608

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Joseph
    It is well known that Yael was not converted by the rabbi in question
    He referred her to the BDA who converted her
    He did so because he recognized she would pass their more stringent standards
    For all intents and purposes she was converted by some very acceptable rabbanim and her conversion would be (presumably)recognized by the Rabbanut in EY because they accept BDA GPS geyrim

    #1292610

    All this talk of “redif”ing and “redifne”ing… where will it lead? : (

    #1292615

    *”redife”ing

    #1292621

    Joseph
    Participant

    Look at it this way, Orthodox Jews do not date or marry non-Jews. Yet he very much indesputably dated a non-Jew for years. Put aside the public photos and news reports of him eating with her in non-kosher restaurants long before her father ran for president (those photo stories are still online from the early 2010s). And let’s not kid ourselves that he brought his own kosher food to the super fancy non-kosher joints he was taking her to. Why would he go to that restaurant on his date with her if he was bringing his own food? Do you really kid yourself into thinking that while he was dating a non-Jew he was keeping kosher and living an Orthodox/halachic life?

    So clearly he was not observant long before marriage. Does anyone actually believe that when she underwent the process she intended to become observant when her fiance was not?

    #1292667

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You don’t ask sheylos out of context”

    I’m not asking any sheilos I am not asking anybody to pasken anything about anyones’s geiros nor status as a jew.

    I am just standing up for the definition of “Orthodox” words have to have menaing. It is wrong to redefine our religion so that people with powerful relatives can fit in. That is called chanifa.

    Of course flying On shabbos is the easiest to defend. Im not sure why you thought otherwise (in fact I purposely hardly mentioned that example).

    “almost certainly involved Jewish issues”

    Lol when the infamous tapes were released reuiring an emergency Shabbos meeting on Oct 8. Id love to hear how that “certainly involved Jewish issues.” and you dont call this “bending over backwards”?

    However you confuse me in the end:
    “They don’t have to follow your orthodox viewpoint. ”

    wait so we agree? They arent Orthodox?

    #1292672

    mentsch1
    Participant

    There are many couples were one spouse is more frum than the other.
    I’m my own family I had a very similar situation to the kushners. I had a non frum cousin dating a goy who became serious about Judaism, she converted and let my cousin know what her standards are. He is now In kollel.
    She was always known to be more serious than him .
    The bottom line is that she was converted by a very respectable bais din. All batei dinim try to assess the likelihood of a convert staying frum in the future. She was assessed as being very serious. She passed all the questions before and after her conversion. Her kids were certified Jewish by some very chashuva people in the know. And for armchair rabbis to call her kids Jewishness into question is a grievous error.

    #1292673

    Avi K
    Participant

    ZD, what is the prohibition if the photographer is not Jewish? FYI, Rav Lior allowed non-Jews to photograph the events in Chevron during parashat Chayei Sara a few years ago as it would be good for the cause.

    Joseph, do Orthodox Jews say LH? Do they engage in fraud? Do they destroy other people’s property (e.g. an <i>eruv</i> some group do not like)?

    To all other <i>tzaddikim in peltz</i>, the point is attacking the Kushners in public. What <i>toelet</i> is there to say <i>lashon hara</i> (all of the prohibiitons and curses multiplied by the number of people who read them)? Not to mention that it might be <i>chotzaat shem ra</i>. Not to mention the prohibitions regarding the treatment of converts.

    #1292707

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    mentch
    “And for armchair rabbis to call her kids Jewishness into question is a grievous error”

    I agree and never called anyone’s jewishness into question

    Avi K
    “do Orthodox Jews say LH? Do they engage in fraud? Do they destroy other people’s property…”

    OF course all Jews do Aveiros once in a while. If he case was they once atte in a restaraunt not realizing it wasnt Ksoher or She once wore an outfit not realizing hw revealing it was we wouldnt have this discussion.
    If a person says oh I’m Orthodox but I’m “not makpid” on lashon hara or I destroy property when I dont like it, then he sint orthodox
    Again, they may be wonderful people and the schar for mitzvos they do keep is immeasurable maybe more than mine.

    I’m curious though, in your view what is the line. If I tell you I’m orthodox but I dont keep shabbos, kashruz a basic standard of tnius is there any point that you would say “I dont think your Orthodox”? OR can I do whatever I want and as long as I claim to be orthodox, I am?

    #1292705

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I saw the title and was worried that someone had made
    a documentary about tznius committees or some such.
    (Is an interfaith talk show actually more worrying? )

    There actually was a TV show on Long Island Cable with the name “The God Squad” . The hosts were a “RabbI of either reform or conservative and a Priest and they discussed faith issues.

    what is the prohibition if the photographer is not Jewish? FYI, Rav Lior allowed non-Jews to photograph the events in Chevron during parashat Chayei Sara a few years ago as it would be good for the cause.

    Kushner was the photographer , not someone else

    #1292689

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“So clearly he was not observant long before marriage. Does anyone actually believe that when she underwent the process she intended to become observant when her fiance was not?”

    So Joe do you still claim to live in Lakewood? We in Lakewood tend to be actual Frum, not a Faker like you!
    “These self-styled guardians of the faith and keepers of the flame, etc…”
    You are a prime example of this!

    “Does anyone actually believe that when she underwent the process she intended to become observant when her fiance was not?”
    Actually, I heard that from​ my Chassidish Rov!
    Do you think that because you’re anonymous here you can post many Issurim?!?

    #1292720

    Avi K
    Participant

    ZD, all I found is that they snapped pictures on “Saturday”. As this was in Jan it could well have been after Shabbat ended. It might not have been Kushner but someone the reporter thought was him (for readers, of course, it is kabbalat LH). In any case, IMHO public discussion of the Kushners’ level of observance is LH.

    #1292721

    Joseph
    Participant

    Health, do you violate issurim when saying conservative conversions are invalid? How do you feel about the beis din in Eretz Yisroel that ruled that thousands of Russian conversions were invalid? What makes you think this one is different? If a conservative beis din calls itself Orthodox that makes it kosher? If an Orthodox acts no differently than a Conservative, is it any more kosher?

    #1292732

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, it was the first Shabbos in January after the inauguration, in the early afternoon when Mr. Kushner was observed in public on a White House porch snapping photographs.

    #1292852

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“Health, do you violate issurim when saying conservative conversions are invalid? Etc.”

    Your posts are going way off by the minute!
    From above:
    mentsch1 -“Joseph it is well known that Yael was not converted by the rabbi in question
    He referred her to the BDA who converted her”

    Are you saying now that the Bais Din of America are conservative?!?

    #1292861

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Schecter was on the Beis Din who converted her. Are you saying Rav Schecter is conservative

    #1292871

    Joseph
    Participant

    The claim that RHS or the BDA/GPS did the conversion is nothing more than an internet rumor. The secret three have always, and remain, a closely guarded secret. The only known actor is R. Haskel Lookstein.

    #1292868

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When Rav Elazar Shach gave a speech in 1990, lambasting secular israelis, calling them breeders of pigs and rabbits, (which later became known as the famous “rabbits and pigs speech”) the Lubavitcher Rebbe came out, calling for rav shach to apologize and saying that its not the way to be mekarev yidden.

    You left out the part about the secular man who later told Rav Shach that he took it to heart and did teshuvah.

    #1292908

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Joseph – I’m torn between wondering why you keep bringing the same four events up over and over in other threads as well if there are SOOO many to choose from , and wondering why in the world you are so over focused on the intricasies of the kushners lives. whether its in the news or not, who said you should be/need to be reading it. Why are you so obsessed with them and what they do?

    #1292912

    Joseph
    Participant

    No idea what you’re talking about, Syag. You are confused, despite your usual retort that is sure to follow that you’re not confused (which I won’t address a second time as it typically parrots what you said previously). I’ve barely spoken about them. Maybe one out of ten thousand of my posts mentioned either of them. Many months easily pass between my ever mentioning them, and even then it is usually in response to someone else bringing them up (like in this very thread.)

    #1292931

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” in response to someone else bringing them up (like in this very thread.”

    +1
    Neither I nor Joseph started this thread
    I commented in response to a post by a fellow who is so enamored by Trump that while, he often critisices other’s lack of adherence to halacha, all of a sudden makes an exception for his guy’s family members

    I agree with those who say that their religiosity is not our concern.
    However, what does concern me is when people label obviously non-orthodox Jews as orthodox. It confuses the non-orthodox and probably some less orthodox people.

    Again this isnt about judging, They may be wonderful people and obviously I have no idea what schar awaits them.

    I just think it is wrong (and it confuses me as to what can possibly drive this other than plain old chanifa) to label the m”orthodox” and come up with all sorts of nonsensical justifications for their non-adherence to halacha

    This isnt about being “over focused on the intricasies of the kushners lives” the opposite, coming up with “maybe they bring their own mashgiach and plates.” (seriously?) is being focused on the intracicies.
    They arent orthodox. period. no need to find out what heter they had to do this and that much like for any frei jew we dont wonder what heter Seinfeld had to drive on Shabos. Yes perhaps they keep more than Seinfeld, which is great but lets let it go they simply arent orthodox.

    #1292939

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Sorry Joseph
    You are way off base
    I know some of the cream of the YU crop. Mrs Kushner had personal interviews with Rav Schachter.
    Before spreading false news, why not call Rav Schachter and ask him if he considers the children jewish.

    #1292943

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m more concerned about the cream of the BMG crop and the opinions of their roshei yeshivos. YU is much too problematic to seriously consider their views.

    #1292991

    Mentsch1 – What are “GPS geyrim?”

    Zahavasdad – If I didn’t know that, what could I possibly have meant?

    (Avi K – it’s , and it’s a hei in “hotzaas.”)

    #1293074

    Joseph
    Participant

    R4nd0m3x, GPS is the RCA/BDA geyrus protocol of the last 6+ years. That said, there’s no reason to believe that in this case she underwent the process within the framework of GPS. (And even had she, the enumerated problems still subsist.)

    #1293081

    (Avi K – that was meant to say that the code for italics is “em.”)

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 70 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.