August 8, 2008 2:39 am at 2:39 am #634075
Please report back after you read the trial history of Kastner. Both the trial of him, and the trial of the Nazis he defended in Nuremberg. It is all in the public record. BTW what is your teretz to what Kastner’s fellow zionist Ben Hecht wrote of his activities?
Your response to Think BIG doesn’t address his points, i.e. of course no one advocates dismantlement, for obvious after-the-fact reasons, but they all still are anti-zionists nonetheless. As far as participation in the organs of the State, many poiskim felt it was a necessary evil in order to protect their interests as dwellers in Eretz Yisroel, not an ideal situation.
And your conclusion regarding the poor conditions for Yidden in Syria, Arabia, Yemen, etc. was already addressed by Think BIG. They were the RESULT of zionism. Of course it was no “paradise” and Jews were oppressed before zionism. Jews were oppressed THROUGHOUT GALUS, anywhere, anyhow. No Jew was ever immune from galus. Not in Christian Europe and not in the Arab lands. BUT the Jews in the Arab lands, like Think BIG so well pointed out, did live relatively benignly for 2,000 years compared to Christian Europe, from the beginning UNTIL THE ADVENT OF ZIONISM.August 8, 2008 3:48 am at 3:48 am #634076Pashuteh YidMember
Just a very quick comment that the first Islamic terrorist was Mohammed, who killed out entire cities of Jews, and who predates Zionism by well over a thousand years. Please read the Koran, and see that it is not a very peace-loving document, especially towards the Jews. If necessary, I will get you the details of terrible pogroms in the Arab world throughout history.August 8, 2008 4:28 am at 4:28 am #634077
Pashuteh, Read what was discussed earlier. We are in galus. Everywhere. But pre-zionism we lived relatively benignly under the Arabs (certainly compared to our fate under the Christians.) Yes there were terrible incidents against Jews in the Arab lands. No need to cite them, it is a given. Even in America there have been terrible events, including a pogram in the heart of NYC that included a cold-blooded murder in the streets a mere 15 years ago. We are in golus in America and we were in golus in the Arab lands as well as the Christian lands. You can not cite a single area in our long and painful golus where you will not find NUMEROUS murderous events directed against the Yidden. Nevertheless, that being said, for every one of the “details of terrible pogroms in the Arab world throughout history” you can cite, there is a 100X multitude of worse murderous fates we suffered in the Christian lands. This fact remained true up until the advent of political zionism.August 8, 2008 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #634078
Rabbi, Joseph took the words straight out of my mouth, or maybe said it even better than i could. Thank’s again Joseph.
I have nothing to add to your comments, except the following: I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating. The crux of the issue, as I see it, is not history or even current events. It is the fact that we don’t rely on our small minds whn it comes to summing up how to perceive these things, but rather on our Torah leaders who view them through their holy eyes. Our leaders’ perspective on these weighty issues is quite clear to the hamon am, and they have never come out in public to change them. (Even if you will bring me “proofs of rebbes who participate, the proof is in the pudding, as you say, since none of their constituents ascribe to the “zioninst” philosophy) So as far as we are concerned, at the end of the day, there is nothing left to debate on this subject.
Now since you and I (and the majority of chareidim, I may add) differ on the role our leaders thinking should have on our personal perspectives, there is no way we can ever come to an agreement on the Zionist issue.
Poshut, see above Joseph’s post for an answer to your comment.August 8, 2008 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #634079
think big, thank you for your reply.
Joseph,I will IY’H try to find the trascript of the trial. All I will say is that I know of “living proof”‘ that Kastner saved Jews. For now, this is enough for me not to demonize him. Indeed, if in the trial notes, I find that he protected nazis for his benefit, I will grant you that he is far from being the hero claimed by some.It still does not mean that he sold out Hungarian jewry, as many intimate,
Think Big, we shall have to agree to disagree, ESPECIALLY on your remark that the crux of the issue is not history or current events. I think this is where we part company. I deeply believe that we should look at history and what has happened to us us over the centuries, “bein letovah, bein lehefech”. History teaches us what to thinkl because this is the way hakodesh Boruch huh gives us a guide finder.
Allow me to give you an example. In the late seventeenth century, there was no more biiter fight than between the “misnagdim”,(talmidei hagro and the “chassidim”(talmidei ha besht). the chassidim were vilified everywhere, put in cherem…etc..
Any neutral observer would not have been able to decide who was right. As a matter of fact. there was probably much more right on the “misnagdim” side.Hence, you could have said then that the chassidim were against Torah,etc.and would disappear…How could one decide the truth?
Well ,history told us the truth, because the chassidim multiplied and prospered. I, for, one recognize Jad hashem in that, regardless of what is imputed to the chassidim.
I look at Zionism in the same way. Whatever you want to say about the early days of Zionism, the fact is that it was the instrument of Hakodesh boruch huh to bring us back to our homeland and prosper there again. You cannot make theoretical imputations, “what if…” (as Joseph says about Arab rule). This is a fallacious argument because we don’t KNOW what would have happened.You can only deal with facts and the present. If you continue to deny that Zionism was the instrument of Hakodesh boruch huh, then ,chas vesholom, I think you deny the guiding Hand of Hakodesh boruch hu. This is the way I look at it and, incidentally, plenty of Gedolim from all sides feel the sameway.
Anyway, I will not persuade you and I will continue to believe what I believe.
Where we truly can join hands in in seeing that Eretz hakodesh becomes just that, eretz HAKODESH. In that respect, I tip my (black) hat to all of those who live in Erretz Ysroel and continue to fight for an Israel imbued withb Torah and yiddishkeit. That includes virtually all religious jews.
Well, have a guten shabbos and let us welcome Moshiach Sunday afternoon….August 8, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #634080
Is the fact that the Reform far larger than the Orthodox Yad Hashem that we must be thankful for? And the Yad Hashem that brought about the destruction of European Jewry? That is the same conclusion your argument vis-a-vis zionism leads to. Do you say too these were the instruments of Hashem and to deny its rightfulness is to deny Hashem C’V?
The Jews Kastner “saved” (for his political reasoning), and there were about 1,000 or so of them including the Satmar Rebbe (although it is documented that the vast majority of those on the train were his family and fellow zionists), were done so at the price of rescuing the rest of 500,000+ Hungarian Jewry — with whom those same very 1,000 could have been included. Nevertheless, be that as it may, do get back to us following your research.
Eliyahu Hanavi cannot come Erev Shabbos, so when he comes Motzei Shabbos to provide our 3-day notice of the pending arrival of Moshiach, we should be going to Eretz Yisroel on Wednesday.August 8, 2008 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #634081
Rabbi, one final rebuttal (unless there’s another one)
Of course I beleive like you do Zionism was the instrument of Hakadosh Baruch Hu, just as I believe that (please forgive the comparison) Pharoh and Hitler were instruments of HKB”H. We are all instruments. That doesn’t take away from the fact that we may have been wrong or made wrong decisions. Because we all have bechirah.
So, yes, Hashem planned it that we should have the State, and ultimately it is the best thing for us, based on the choices we made. I once had a teacher who repeated the following statement every day, “EVERYTHING THAT HASHEM DOES IS THE ABSOLUTE VERY BEST THING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN, DUE TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH WE PUT OURSELVES IN, BY OUR OWN FREE CHOICE.”
As to your assertion that history should be our best teacher, i already responded to that, that we dont really know the true history. The “truth” could have been falsified, slanted, exagerated, edited etc. on either side.
Incidentally, I agree with your analysis on the chasiddim/misnagdim controversy. But in this issue, until our gedolim themselves change their perspective, we continue to take guidance from them. Call me narrow-minded if you will. To me, that’s THINKING BIG.August 8, 2008 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #634082
before I close this machine for shabbos, a quasi-final answer to Jospeh and Think BIg. Interesting that Think BIB is at variance to Joseph concerning Pharaoh and hitel JEMACH SHEMO. Indeed, if you deny that Hitler,jemahc shemo,, in an inscrutable way,was part of Hakodush boruch huh’s plan, then, chas vesholom, you deny Hakodehs Boruch huh’s all powerful and allknowing ways. I know, I know,there is controversy as to WHY it happened, but one must admit that it came from Hakodesh boruch huh.I am going to avoid the discussion as to the whys and wherefores and why was it “Oilam hanistar”, etc. The simple fact is that everything has its origin min hashomayim.
Think Big, as I said earlier, we are a lot closer than you may think. We did have bechira and there may very well have been mistakes on all sides and who knows what would have happened would we have chosen differently.I squarely look at today and today, we do have a medinah, as imperfect as it is and our duty and obligation is to make it the best place for Jews in the world. I generally eschew debate about the past because ,in the final analysis, we cannot do anything about it except learn from it. That goes for evacuating Jewish settlements to the utter lack of Jewish education in the mamlachti schools (on that I fully agree with you) to a host of other issues.
Well, I look forward to meet Joseph in jerushulaim next Wednesday. We migh both carry Melech hamoshiach on our shoulders.August 8, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #634083
rabbiofberlin, Actually what I said and what Think BIG stated are entirely in concurrence. In fact I have been amazed at the number of times our posts have expressed the same idea, in our own words, that when the moderator approved both simultaneously it amazed me at how great minds think alike. (Sorry for the lack of humility there.)
One correction I must make. Moshiach cannot come Erev Shabbos. I believe Eliyahu Hanavi CAN come with the 3-day advance notice on Erev Shabbos. So MOSHIACH WILL BE HERE MONDAY! BE PREPARED!August 8, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #634084
Rabbi: ON THE CONTRARY, I think you misunderstood Joseph, but I understood his words to be along the same lines as mine. He and I actually reached the same conclusion, even citing the same example, just wording it differently. : Hitler, and Pharoh were instruments of Hashem, just as reform and Zionism were. That does not absolve us from doing the right thing.
(Joseph, am I misunderstanding you or his he?)
Rabbi, we will have to defer this discussion for another time. To all of you, have a good Shabbos and an easy fast, and may the wishes invoked here for Moshiach translate into reality , Amen.August 11, 2008 5:56 am at 5:56 am #634085
Joseph: It IS funny that we keep saying the same thing.
Rabbi of Berlin: I take exception to an idea that you (and i think Poshut also) expressed in some of these posts. You say that “mistakes were made on bothe sides”. You may call me narrow-minded if you wish, but I think it is a desecration to the memories of the kedoshim, Tzaddikim when you say that, in addition to being fundamentally wrong. In my view, if the Rebbes and Tzaddikim discouraged people from fleeing Europe and instead to have bitachon, they were so guided by Hashem. In other words, it was Hashem’s will that their view be clouded and that they should not see the impending doom, (some did, of course, and convinced others to escape). They can not be faulted.
But to apply the same principal to the Zionists would be skewed, because they were not following Torah or Halacha. Their idealogy was flawed and their “mistakes” had an agenda. While the tzaddikim and rabbonim tried to lead their flock in the best way they knew how, the Zionists had an agenda, and anyone who stood in the way was not worth their time. One might say, their mistakes were “bemaizid”, while the former group sinned (if we can say that) “beshogeg”. Big difference there.August 11, 2008 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #634086
well, after thisha be-av, I can reply again on some of these postings. I, and others, will have to agree to disagree with Think BIG, Joseph, and the like on the matter of Eretz Yisroel and its manifestation of Hashem Yisborach’s will.Nonetheless, allow me toanswer one detail in Think BIG’s last posting.I have never, never, impugned that what happened in the Holocaust was our Sages’s fault, G-d forbid, and was a result of their decisions. As a matter of fact, I think it would behoove everyone to remain silent on that terrible event. Sometimes. it is advisable to be “Vajidom Aharon”.However, I also cannot accept the fact that mistakes cannot be made by the biggest Gedolim. Even Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes.You are certainly right that the Gedolim of that era made those decisions based on what they thought was best. This doesn’t mean that it was not a mistake. There were other Gedolim who had different views and ,for all of us, it is easy to have 20/20 hindsight. Absolutely, I do not fault or -chas vesholom – condemn the Gedolim of that era who made fateful decisions.They made those decisions based on their understanding of the times. I cannot say what I would have done then and, because of that, whatever was decided was decided.However, now that we know what happened, why can’t we say that it was a mistake?I understand that it will not change anything about their greatness but it does teach me that our Gedolim are not necessarly infallible. And this is the conclusion that I draw from the events of the 1930’s. Not-chas veshalom- that I accuse any Godol of being responsible for what happened. This is indeed sacrilegous and stupid because no one has prophetic vision. But I, unlike you, take every Godol’s words with a certain critical approach . I know this is anathema to you and others who believe that “emunas chachomim’ means just that, unquestioned loyalty to a Godol’s words.
I say, with some sadness in my voice, that I cannot accept this rigid view and, as I said before, this approach to “emunas chachomim” is very modern and is not reflected in our own past.
As far as what the Zionist leadership did or did not do, sure they had an agenda but it was an agenda that they thought was for the good of Klal Yisroel. You will disagree and this is OK too,but I prefer to look at the good in every Jew’s actions and to me,at least, there was a lot of good in the Zionist work.August 12, 2008 1:59 am at 1:59 am #634087
rabbiofberlin, can you please elaborate what then your point was in bringing up the Gedolim in the holocaust?August 12, 2008 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #634088
joseph, I did not bring it up. Think BIG commented on my statement “that there were mistakes made on both sides” and gave his version of the decisiosn made in those days.August 13, 2008 3:09 am at 3:09 am #634089
Rabbi of Berlin.
So then what did you mean by the “mistakes made on both sides”?August 13, 2008 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #634090
TO think big, I did say ‘that mistakes were made on both sides” but I fail to understand Joseph’s point. I did not target any gedolim of that dor. I have consistently said (see above post) that, IN HINDSIGHT, decisions made then were a mistake. And I also said that, because it is IN HINDSIGHT, no blame can be attached to anyone.August 13, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #634091
But, I disagree. Blame can be attached to people who willfully and purposely went agianst the Torah and rabbonim. good may have resulted in the Zionists actions but in Judaism we do not ignore the means by which we get to a goal.August 13, 2008 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #634092
Think big- when I said ‘no blame can be attached to anyone”, I meant the matter of the Holocaust. I fail to see what blame you want to attach to the Zionists in THAT matter. You and I (and Joseph and some others) have discussed that ad nauseum…and we shall have different views on that.August 14, 2008 1:42 am at 1:42 am #634093
ok, so lets drop it…August 18, 2008 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #634094
Since you indicated your desire to research the Judgment against Kastner, here is the reference (for the Israeli court decision):
Protocol C.C. 124/53 in the D.C. Jerusalem.
Judge Dr. Benjamin Halevi, President of the Jerusalem District Court, 22 June 1955.August 18, 2008 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #634095
thank you, joseph, although to me the most important item is Kastner’s supposed testimony on BEHALF of a nazi officer, which happened, according to the writers, at Nuremberg.August 18, 2008 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #634096
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .August 19, 2008 6:04 am at 6:04 am #634097
Yes rabbiofberlin. To find the information you seek, read the book “Perfidy” authored by Ben Hecht (who happened to be a zionist), as it relates the testimony Kastner made in Nuremberg, after the war, for the defense of several Nazi war criminals (honoring his word to them made during the war, when they helped him.) The book includes the relevant references.August 20, 2008 4:15 am at 4:15 am #634098The Big OneParticipant
Isn’t it tiring when someone asks you to keep repeating the same facts over and over (and still remains in denial!)?August 20, 2008 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #634099
just a quick response to will hill and others. I know little of past testimony and what REALLY went on in the war. All I can attest to are “eidei reeiah” who were in hungary throughout the whole war and people who owe their lives to kastner and who are alive and well today-many of them chareidim,not zionists. Remember, there were 1700 Jews on that train,amongst them the Satmarer rebbe and people I actually know. If saving 1700 jews are not enough for you, then you can continue vituperating against katner. For me, saving 1700 jews from death in those days is a mark of distinction. All the rest is pure conjecture,including vrba’s testimony.As far as “being dressed up in a nazi uniform” , the Boobver rebe himself was dressed up in a Nazi unifrom when he escaped from Hungary. THAT, I heard from his owen mouth,so you can believe whatever you want, I will stick to things I actually have seen or heard myself.
I suspect that the only reason why you and joseph and others keep on harping on kastner has nothing to do with him or what he did but you are conveniently using him to attack the “evil Zionists’ and the reason for that is, that you and all the chareidi revisionists are trying to cover up their own shortcomings in the war.
For me, I prefer not to be judgmental on ANYONE,because “al todin es chavercho at shetagyia limkomo”August 20, 2008 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #634100
r.o.b., if Vrba (who was a direct participant in the Kastner fiasco) is correct, something you admit you cannot claim is not the case, then the 1,700 souls he saved were at the direct expense of 600,000 Hungarian Jews (read again what Vrba wrote above.)
You still haven’t addressed the issue of Kastner testifying on behalf of Nazi war criminals in Nuremberg AFTER the war.August 20, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #634101
This is a quote from the ruling by the Israeli Judge against Kastner REGARDING HIS POST-WAR NUREMBERG TESTIMONY IN FAVOR OF NAZI S.S. COL. KURT BECHER (responsible for mass murder against Jews and a friend of Kastner), by Judge Halevi:August 21, 2008 2:55 am at 2:55 am #634102
to will hill and joseph,
Thnaks for the quote. As I said, I will try to read the (very)voluminous material on this whole sorry affair. Till then, i stick to my point.
BTW, even assuming kastner testified on behalf of this nazi becher, how does this belittle his saving 1700 Jews? And to joseph, you can say whatever you want about “at the direct expense of 600,000 Jews”, this is obviously a ridiculous remark. Do me a favor and google “Kastner” and youn will see that there were many people who knew about Eichmann’s jm”s plans and that Kastner (according to google) DID, in fact give tihs inofrmation to many others. As I said, this is a murjy part pf our history snd to me, the fasct that 1700 Jews were saved trumps a lot of other “avieros”August 21, 2008 4:42 am at 4:42 am #634103
rob, Clearly you have a mental block (no insult intended) that prevents you from seeing any fault with this shabtzei tzvi like fascination you have with the zionists.
The answer regarding the 1700 was given to you multiple times (including just 6 posts above your last, by WH) and you keep repeating yourself as if that will make people forget.
Should we also thank Adolf Eichmann for heroicly approving the saving of the 1700? Afterall Eichmann approved and arranged the train for the 1700 saved. Without Eichmann the 1700 would not have been saved. Really Eichmann should be your hero, not Kastner. So we must be thankful to Eichmann and allow that to ‘trump his other aveiros.’? That is your logic with Kastner.
But this is like hakofos. You just keep repeating yourself without a logical answer. So now you go do your voluminous research and hope the world forgets when we never hear back from you following your ”voluminous research.”August 21, 2008 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #634104
well, joseph, I wish you would not have this obsessive mental preoccupation with Kastner. You said some other time that you are still young, so I will give you the benefit of not having acquired binah yet. It takes time ,my friend.
Your comments are so asinine that they don’t deserve an answer. Eichmann was the malach hamoves and send coutless of jews to their death. You think the same about Ksstner, I am sure and this is where your youth and ignorance show. YOU have no idea what happened during the war. YOU have no clue how it was, being hunted by the Nazis jemach shemom. YOu can’t even fathom what jews of all ilk did to save their lives. SO, spare me the sanctimoniuosness about Kastner. The facts are that, due to him, there are people today-chareidim by the way- who are alive. Due to kastner, Satmar is a big chassidus. Due to Ksstner, I know the grandchildren of great Poskim who are alive today and have large families.
MY point is that I am not JUDGMENTAL. I will not judge Kastner because I was not in his shoes and did not live in his time. You, on the other hand, lump him together with the “evil Zionists’ in one big pot. I truly hope that you NEVER ,ever go through the same times as our parents did in the War,because you do NOT know how yo uwould react!
And, pray tell me, why did the satmarer Rov accept to be saved? There were many rabbnimm who went to their death with their kehillos. BUT I would NEVER have asked this question because I wil never judge the Satmarer rebbe on THIS matter.
SO,PLEEZE…spare sus your continuing insults to hundreds of thousands of good jews who are Zionists. As I said in another posting, history will tell and right now, I am betting my house on the continuing survival and prosperity on what you have called “the Zionist entity”.August 21, 2008 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #634106
Instead of saving 600,000 Hungarian Jews, Kastner reduced it to 1,700. And for what remained after his family and zionist friends took their seats on the train, he sold tickets for what was left. So there was nothing wrong for anyone, including the Rabbonim who managed to buy seats from Kastner (who btw the Rabbonim hadn’t known at the time Kastner was the one profiting from this train ride) to do so, since that became the last train out (another point they hadn’t known at the time.)August 21, 2008 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #634107
Well, this should be the last comment on this matter from me. What joseph wrote is so incredibly silly that I will follow my earlier promise first, which si to read up on this “parsha”.
Even Kastner’s detractors never sadi that eh had the power to save all Hungarian Jewry.This is indeed a atupid stattement. And qhat you write that “Rabbomin manaed to buy seats from kastner”. Apart from the fact that I greatly doubt this is true, this does not abslove the ones who left their kehillos. BUT I will not charge anyone with this “chet”. In times of danger, people do all kind of things to save themselves, including dealing with the devil himself. For that, no one should be vilified.August 22, 2008 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #634108
You continue sounding like a first-class rasha talking like that. And it shows how contradictory you folks are. On another topic someone from your ilk (cantoresq) criticized R. Elchanan Wasserman for NOT escaping even though he could. And hear you criticize Rabbonim FOR escaping. With you guys, the Rabbonim are always wrong.
And who are you anyways to criticize the Rabbonim? (YOU of all people who attack anyone criticizing one of your idols!) And following-up your critique with “I will not charge anyone with this chet.” is meaningless. The Rabbonim were saved because Klal Yisroel needs Rabbonim.
Do you remember Yavneh? Reb Yochanan ben Zakai asked Vespasian to save the top leaders of Klal Yisroel even though he was destroying the other Yidden in Eretz Yisroel. I guess you must have questions of Reb Yochanan ben Zakai for saving their own skin while the Klal was being destroyed.August 24, 2008 12:51 am at 12:51 am #634109
but berlin will not charge Rebi Yochanan Ben Zakai with this “chet”, so he must feel good about himself.August 24, 2008 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #634110BogenParticipant
“rabbi”ofberlin, are you really a Rabbi? What denomination?
And why do you constantly replace the Yud with a Jay?August 25, 2008 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #634111
I see that there is a good amount of interest in the Ben Hecht book Perfidy. You don’t even have to buy a copy. It is out of copyright and you can download a free copy of the book atAugust 25, 2008 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #634113August 25, 2008 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #634114
rabbi, I think he meant why do you type “Jochanon” instead of “Yochanon”.
I said you sound like a rasha, not that you are one. How dare you criticize the saving of the Rabbonim! Saying “you will not charge them with this chet” is a critique of their being saved.
Now you imply that by being saved the Rabbonim killed people? That is sick.August 25, 2008 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #634116
cross-post, but very relevant to this discussion:
* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rabbi C. Soloveichik
* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rabbi V. Soloveichik
Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:
“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”
Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:
“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”
The Chazon Ish once said:
“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:
“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”
Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:
“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”
Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:
“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”
Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:
” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”
The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen once said:
“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”
Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:
“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?
He also said:
“The Agudah is nothing, just money.”
Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said:
“The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:
“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”
Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:
“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”
“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”
Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:
In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.
At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.
769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.August 26, 2008 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #634117lammed heyMember
But for money… its all mutar! 🙂
I would love for the Parties in E”Y to just admit they are anti-state and stop trying to be elected, but as R’ Elyashiv has been quoted, the most important thing is for the yeshivos to get their money.
Literally, Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam, and it is worth all. That is the P’sak, we can only follow.August 26, 2008 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #634118
Zalman, I did NOT say that ,by saving themselves, Rabbonim killed people. Take an English reading class. In response to one of your comments that we needed zaddikim and rabbonim to be saved-RATHER THAN THE AVERAGE JEW- I noted the gemoro in sanhedrin that did not differentiate between people, and that included everyone!
I have never faulted ANYONE for trying to save himself in those terrible times because, simply, I do not know what I would have dome myself. “Al todin…” Hence, I keep my mouth shut-and that goes for the whole Kastner story.December 30, 2008 12:45 am at 12:45 am #634119BogenParticipant
Is that from Rav Miller’s Sefer?December 30, 2008 11:45 am at 11:45 am #634120
The quotes from R’ Miller are from one of his seforim.January 25, 2009 4:43 am at 4:43 am #634121
Bogen – From various sources. Rav Miller’s though are from one of his Seforim.January 26, 2009 5:06 am at 5:06 am #634122ujmParticipant
Oy, where would we be without the Gedolim?
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