The Hishtadlus of Voting

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  • #618380

    mentsch1
    Participant

    I just noticed a thread with 300+ comments that (for the most part) was a spirited discussion of the pros and cons of our current presidential candidates.

    I personally don’t believe that the next president is up to us. The Rebbonei Shel Olam has already decided who it will be. If that is true then why get so invested in the candidates? Why the emotion? why the hate?

    I don’t get it.

    Not to mention that the current two choices are possibly the biggest liars to ever vie for the office. Their lies are indisputable, so shouldn’t it be our role as jews who value the concept of “tocho k’baro” to express our disdain (or at least indifference) rather than stand behind these candidates?

    #1179747

    better to vote for the better of the 2 which we would all say trump then not vote at all & give 1 more chance of winning to the bad one.

    never in my life heard of such a lying & corrupt person like hillary

    #1179748

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    We’re commanded to vote for those who advance morals.

    Rav Avigdor Miller, zt”l, was adamant about not voting for pro-toeva candidates, which would de facto mean that we cannot vote for Democrats

    #1179749

    Redleg
    Participant

    Hey, MA! Maybe we should just vote for the Satan. Why settle for the lesser evil?

    #1179750

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    never in my life heard of such a lying & corrupt person like hillary

    I have – his name is Donald Trump.

    #1179751

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We’re commanded to vote for those who advance morals.

    Please don’t fool yourself into thinking that translate into a vote for Trump, the most publicly immoral candidate to ever run for president.

    #1179752

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Avigdor Miller, zt”l, was adamant about not voting for pro-toeva candidates, which would de facto mean that we cannot vote for Democrats

    For the record both candidates basically agree on this issue

    #1179753

    mentsch1
    Participant

    MA

    I disagree

    when two candidates are the antithesis of emes, shouldn’t we vote for neither?

    I would suggest the proper hashkafic thing to do in this election is either not to vote. Or, if you want to make a case that we need to vote because it’s important hishtadlus for the frum to be seen as a voting block, then vote for a third candidate.

    Perhaps, write in your vote for Mashiach?

    #1179754

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Mashiach Agent

    Who gave you authority to speak for all members of the coffee room? Your statement “better of the 2 which we would all say trump” is a LIE. Yet you in the same post accuse Secretary Clinton of lying. How ironic.

    You don’t speak for me, I DON’T think Trump is the better of the two.

    #1179755

    TheMiddleOf
    Member

    Ignoring both candidates in the race, if we as a people want to keep our religious rights in this country, we should do everything we can to make sure Clinton does not get elected, as her appointee to the Supreme Court would no doubt be liberal, and tip the entire court to the left, reversing many decisions and making many new ones against the First (and Second) Amendment and freedom of religion.

    #1179756

    mentsch1
    Participant

    TheMiddle

    My original point was that (I believe) there is nothing any of us can do to make sure any candidate will win.

    Decisions of this magnitude are outside of our hishtadlus. Your ballot does not count, The winner has already been decided by the R’BSHO.

    If that is the case, shouldn’t we vote hashkafically and not vote for either candidate?

    #1179757

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    Killary will put in liberal activist judges who will continue to push for toeva. Trump will put in conservative judges. You’re wrong.

    #1179758

    benignuman
    Participant

    mentsch1,

    You can vote for a third-party candidate or write-in a vote to show your lack of support for the two main candidates.

    #1179759

    Sam2
    Participant

    dovrosenbaum: The fight against gay marriage is over. The religious lost. All candidates support gay marriage now. Ted Cruz didn’t, kinda, but he was it. You don’t remember Trump saying how he was pro-LGBT at the convention?

    #1179760

    Sparkly
    Member

    true vote for trump!!!

    #1179761

    TheMiddleOf
    Member

    @mentsch1 the outcome of the election may be out of our hands, but it is our hishtadlus to vote. Who to vote for, however, according to daas Torah, it really depends who you ask. I’m not sure what you mean by vote hashkafically and not vote. I believe that Rav Moshe said we are mechuyiv to vote, and it is our responsibility as a citizen to do our part. That is our histadlus.

    #1179762

    TheMiddleOf
    Member

    Do you believe that we should vote the canditate we believe is best or the candidate our Local Orthodox Rabbi recommends?

    #1179763

    Sparkly
    Member

    TheMiddleOf – the lor. go trump!!

    #1179764

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Neither candidate represents the acme of moral rectitude, as someone so aptly put it, the choice is between Achashverosh or Vashti …. Nevertheless, and particularly in view of Rabbi Miller zt”l’s opinion, the choice should be for the candidate who espouses less immorality. On this matter, the candidate’s own words speak for themselves.

    #1179765

    mentsch1
    Participant

    The middle

    I personally don’t ask my LO Rabbi who to vote for, nor do I believe that in chutz l’aretz there is any logic in even asking that question to a Rav.

    for several reasons

    1) I don’t know how old you are, but when I started voting in the eighties, almost every LO rabbi (including in the Chasidic communities) voted democrat. I held like Rav Miller, and never voted democrat for president because I was worried about the supreme court and various social issues that recently became the law of the land. How these other Rabbunim came up with their view, still eludes me

    2)As someone else pointed out, almost all candidates these days are the worse of two evils, so how can a Rav pasken to tell you to vote for someone with values that we don’t hold of? I don’t believe any Rav should give an opinion on presidential candidates when you have poor candidates. On second thought why should a Rav have any opinion on politics ever in chutz l’aretz? it’s all sheker

    #1179766

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Themiddle

    As to whether I agree with voting for who you think is best;

    As I said already I believe a person should vote within the framework of proper hashkafa.

    The interesting question now is, does it matter anymore?

    Rav Miller’s psak was before every candidate fell into the LGBT camp. Now that every candidate no longer has values that I can believe in, what is the right derech?

    You can argue many things, maybe now we have to vote for the candidate that is more pro-Israel or less loved by the LGBT.

    But I do believe that the answer is more fluid now than it was just a few years ago.

    Personally, I believe the proper answer is to not vote for sheker. Do a protest vote and maybe, just maybe, future candidates will get the hint that we still care (a little ) for personal integrity.

    #1179767

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many Rabbonim in Brooklyn had no problem meeting with Christine Quinn and having those photos put on YWN

    #1179768

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    You have to look at it in terms of least damage.

    Trump will appoint conservative judges. He will also destroy terrorism, curb radical Islam, and will support Israel.

    Hillary will continue in the same street J Street trajectory, more concessions to Iran, more Muslim immigrants, etc.

    Also, in terms of morality, look at Lo Tirtzach. Benghazi, Vince Foster, etc. should all be sufficient proof that Killary should be on death row now.

    #1179769

    benignuman
    Participant

    dovrosenbaum,

    I don’t know how you define “conservative” judges, but I am pretty sure that Trump will not appoint judges based on any ideological or legal-philosophy basis. How will Trump “destroy terrorism”? Bush, Obama and many other governments have been trying for the last 15 years and it is still here. Frankly Hillary will be just as tough on terrorism and she will be far more rational in attacking it than Trump.

    Benghazi, while bad, was not murder on Hillary’s part (or Obama’s) it was neglect and then an attempt to cover-up/minimize the neglect. Vince Foster was not murdered.

    Saying Hillary should be on death row is reprehensible and probably should not have been let through by the moderators.

    #1179770

    TheMiddleOf
    Member

    @sparkly I’d like to hear your logic for that (tha LOR, not Trump, I agree on that.)

    @mentsch1 I agree. You make two very good points. Every Rabbi has a different take on it, and unless THE undisputed gadol hador says something on it, it’s impossible to know what daas Torah is. So at this point, it is really within our hands to choose not who the most moral candidate is, but rather who would be the better presidant for our country, for us, and for Israel, and whatever other issues you care about.

    #1179771

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    The only way to stop terrorism is through a war of attrition. You have to bomb them into oblivion. Maybe use a nuke.

    I can’t engage liberal Democrats or liberal “Republicans” in discussion. It’s fruitless. If you can’t see that Hillary is evil, you have no moral compass.

    #1600073

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Have you ever considered that you might be the one who is wrong?

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