October 20, 2023 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2233084
The Israel Pogram of 2023 Jewish massacre, all under the great and powerful protection of the Israeli Defense Force of the Zionist State — advertised as a refuge of sorts from Golus (which its proponents claim ends at their State’s borders), was worse than all the casualties of the Kishinev Pogram (1903), Bucharest Pogram (1866), Chisinau Pogram (1903), Odessa Pogram (1905), Lemberg Pogram (1941), Kovno Pogram (1941) and Kielce Pogram (1946) combined.October 20, 2023 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2233209SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
The correct spelling is POGROM, not “pogram”.
Every time you attack “The Zionists”, the
ONLY thing you accomplish is making Jews HATE you.
(As if there were not already enough hate between Jews.)
But don’t listen to me. Just continue to attack “The Zionists”
at every possible opportunity, again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again.
Don’t worry about about increasing hate between Jews,
because that is NEVER a problem.
Last but not least, NEVER make a distinction between
Secular Zionists who are traif-eating atheists, and
Religious Zionists who observe: Shabbat, kashrut, tzitzit,
tefillin, daily tefilah with Orthodox minyanim, shaatnez, etc.
Instead, you should continue to assume that ALL Zionists
are exactly the same, whether they are Secular or Religious.October 21, 2023 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2233368
ujm – aside from being a Jew-hating troll, you’re also an ignoramus. Chisinau and Kishinev are the same place, yet you cite the 1903 pogrom that took place there twice.October 23, 2023 12:11 am at 12:11 am #2233696GadolhadorahParticipant
“ujm – aside from being a Jew-hating troll, you’re also an ignoramus…”
IsraeliYid: So tell us, what do you really think about R’ Yosef??October 23, 2023 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #2233803
GHadorah: What difference is it what a malevolent misbegotten being thinks of you or I? His only defense to the accuracy of the point here is that one town was mistakenly listed under two different names. And his likeminded ideologue commenting before him, also, only can offer as a defense that a word was misspelled.
When these characters can only stoop to ad hominems you know that they realize that their entire weltanschauung has been refuted.
Square Root: The point made in the OP is indistinguishable between the ideologies of the secular and religious zionists. In any event, even if some in the religious camp might claim some fine nuance in view, zionism was founded and defined by the anti-Torah crowd of the likes of Herzl and Ben-Gurion.October 23, 2023 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2233853smerelParticipant
The anti-Zionist movement, which once criticized the Zionist movement for thinking that if there would be a state of Israel and a Jewish homeland then we would be free from antisemitism, has to go a great degree adopted their view in reverse, thinking that if there would NOT be a state of Israel and a Jewish homeland we would be free from antisemitism.
The Posuk in Tehillim of כִּֽי־ עָ֖לֶיךָ הֹרַ֣גְנוּ כָל־הַיּ֑וֹם נֶ֜חְשַׁ֗בְנוּ כְּצֹ֣אן טִבְחָֽה predates the Zionist movement by thousands of years and has been a constant in golus . Yet I see the more extreme anti-Zionists talk as if had the Zionist listened to them such a thing wouldn’t exist.October 23, 2023 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2233897AviraDeArahParticipant
When people point out that the state doesn’t keep jews safe, they respond by saying “how dare you politicize a tragedy!
“The Holocaust wouldn’t have happened if we had a state ”
Why is it only ok for zionists to politicize tragedies – with some added kefirah that Hashem’s decree wouldn’t have transpired if only we were able to stop it with guns.October 23, 2023 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2233895Red AdairParticipant
I completely agree. Unfortunately, you can’t shame the shameless. Isn’t that sad?October 23, 2023 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #2233917
Silly Sephardim listened to zionist propaganda instead of staying
in peace in Aleppo, Damascus, Tehran,October 23, 2023 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #2233918
It seems that a Persian hackr broke into a esteemed poster’s account and besmerched our heimishe anti zionist with bad Russian spelling and geography.
This silly person probably doesn’t know between lviv and lembergOctober 23, 2023 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2233923
I think the point is that we are still less than a month away from the worst pogrom since the Holocaust. There’s a time and place for frum criticism of the State but basic human empathy warrants that we keep these ideas to ourselves for at least some time.
Hear, hear!October 23, 2023 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2233928
Red – of course you can’t. It is almost funny, though,.how perfectly he personifies Chazal’s saying of “Kol haPosel -b’Mumo Posel”. He resorts to referring to me as a “malevolent misbegotten being”, which is actually quite funny considering.his role as chief troll here – and I’d say that his description is a pretty good synopsis of what.a troll is. Most definitely a real piece of work.October 24, 2023 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2233944ThingsParticipant
Haaretz justifies the massacre and mocks the kidnapped victims
Hanan Amior, Presspectiva, 23.10.23 |
And again, as always, the issue is not who wrote the article, but the decision of the newspaper’s editors that it is worthy of publication
On Monday, October 9, two days after the massacre in the Gaza Strip, Amira Hass published an article in Ha’aretz entitled…
But the article did not describe any circle, but was entirely a song of praise and praise for the barbaric Nazi massacre carried out by Hamas throughout the enclave, and a song of mockery and joy for the IDF’s defeat on that blackest of black Sabbaths.
Already at the beginning of the story, Haaretz’s story about the IDF is a vile and despicable lie…
I noticed that since the beginning of the war, all daily Israeli newspapers incorporate the Israeli flag in the newspaper logo. Thus Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel Hayom, Ma’ariv, Jerusalem Post.
They do this because they feel Israeli. A part of Israeli society that stands on its own.
The only newspaper that does not do this is Haaretz, for the exact same reason.
He does not feel part of Israeli society. once felt Then he moved to look at us from the side. Then he adopted a critical look from the side. Then a hostile look.
The wagon goes unstoppable and now he, quite simply, sympathizes with the enemy and supports him, even when he commits the most barbaric crimes, which human history will forever remember.
But there is another thing that history, especially Jewish history, will forever remember: and that is the negative, debilitating, inciting, divisive and enemy-justifying content that the newspaper published systematically and consistently from the beginning of the war.October 24, 2023 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #2233973Menachem ShmeiParticipant
I strongly agree with Marxist.
Avira, the problem isn’t (necessarily) with “politicizing a tragedy” – rather doing so during this time of war. Same goes for all those who are looking for government officials to blame. All of this can wait.October 24, 2023 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #2234040BY1212Participant
Ujm is clearly correct. Israel is the most dangerous place in the world for a Jew today. Zionism has solved nothing.
The state can’t even take the most basic steps to protect itself bc they are more concerned about how goyim think about them then Jewish lives.
But what’s done is done. We are paying for the Zionists mistakes. שומר פתאיים השם.October 24, 2023 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #2234080somejewiknowParticipant
First, the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l said, and many gedolim concurred, that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionist State. Beyond that, the foundation of teshuva is: if not for my aveiros I wouldn’t be suffering. So, there is certainty substance to the idea that if not for the Zionist State there wouldn’t be antisemitism.
Second, unfortunately many Jews have responded to the recent tragedy with running to join the zionist army and cheer when the zionists attack our enemies with bombs and guns. Honest Yidden will know that the recent events are a call to teshuva tzedakah and tefilla, the only things that can prevent such tragedies.October 24, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2234153DaMosheParticipant
somejew: for your second point, the two items aren’t mutually exclusive. Yes, many Jews went to join the army and fight. This is hishtadlus, as we saw by Yaakov Avinu when Esav was coming towards him.
At the same time, look how many soldiers started taking on observances which they previously didn’t keep! The tzitzis being made to help those soldiers aren’t being made quickly enough – there is a tzitzis shortage in Israel right now! Soldiers want to wear them! Soldiers are asking to put on tefillin. It’s not only the soldiers – there are plenty of people who are doing these things as a zchus for the soldiers. So yes, there are mitzvos being done right now, the zchusim of which should help protect us all.
As for whether Mashiach would have come, sorry, I don’t think the Satmar Rebbe knew that. Who are the Gedolim who concurred with him? Nobody knows when Mashiach will come, except for Hashem. It says that when Yaakov Avinu wanted to tell his children about it, Hashem wouldn’t allow it. Do you think the Satmar Rebbe was greater than bnei Yaakov?October 24, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2234151
I don’t agree that we should wait to make this correct criticism only after the war concludes. Firstly, the misbegotten one would have made his same rant if this proper criticism was first published twelve months after the conclusion of hostilities. His zionist religion wouldn’t tolerate it at anytime. Secondly, should Yidden have waited until after the holocaust to criticize the American Reform “Jewish” leadership for instigating Hitler to ramp up violence against Jews? Or to refrain from calling out the Zionist leadership for sabotaging rescue efforts of Jews in Nazi Europe, in order to have a better shot at establishing a State if more Jews were slaughtered?
Because, to quote one zionist leader, “One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe”. And he said that “I think it is necessary to state here – Zionism is above everything.” And “I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act.” (Stated at a 1942 gathering in pre-state Israel (Yishuv) about rescue of Jews in Europe.)October 24, 2023 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2234223sechel83Participant
btw, if you actually read the satmer rebbe’s sefer vayoel moshe, you will probably conclude that his attacks on zionism are long over or have changed alot, todays eretz yisroel is extremly different than then.
anyway i “love” when people just blame all the tragedies that happen on anything but their own problems. zionism, shaitels, tznius, smartphones, internet, lashon hara, bitul torah, zilzul tamidai chachamim, sinas chinam, (the baal hasulam actually writes in his hakdama that all tragedies are because people dont learn kabala) etc etc.October 24, 2023 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2234238
Sechel83, do you love when the Tosfos Yom Tov blames the massacres during Tach V’Tat on Yidden taking in Shul? Or when Chazal blame the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash on several reasons, including on Sinas Chinom and on women not being tznius. Or when Gedolei Yisroel, both before the Tosfos Yom Tov as well as from his time though our times, explain to us specific reasons why various tragedies (including the holocaust being attributed to zionism) occurred.October 25, 2023 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2234418
To the resident troll – you attribute the Holocaust to Zionism. Rav Yissachar Shlomo Teichtel HY”D, one of the Gedolim in prewar Europe, wrote a whole Sefer, Eim haBanim Semeicha, on why the Holocaust was punishment for the Jews in Europe ignoring the opportunity to return to Eretz Yisrael presented by the establishment of the British Mandate in the San Remo conference. Me? I leave it to HKB”H to keep his own Chahbonos – he doesn’t need me (or anyone else, for that matter) to do it for him.
an Israeli YidOctober 25, 2023 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #2234435
To the malevolent misbegotten one — I made no such attribution. I merely referred to Gedolim who made that attribution. Eim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though R. Teichtel was a talmid chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Eim HaBanim Semecha is not taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and discourses (droshos), rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like R. Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet R. Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over. Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.
This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny.
The following is R. Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”:
First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:
“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98
In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach. Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of overrating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second.
R. Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos (approbations) form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the two seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time wrote him a haskama.
Note: Eim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.October 25, 2023 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #2234451
Each situation warrants its own judgement. I think most frum Jews understand that regardless of how they feel about the Medinah in general this is not the time to be engaged in blaming people and bashing the Zionists. Maybe get off the internet and talk with other frum Jews in real life and you’ll get a better picture of how people are reacting to what happened in Eretz Yisrael.October 25, 2023 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #2234486lakewhutParticipant
State or not, there were opportunities for Jews to perform the mitzvah of yishuv eretz Yisroel before WWII. The Kehilos would’ve lost funding for sure if everyone moved when there was a chance.October 25, 2023 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #2234531somejewiknowParticipant
@anIsraeliYid , That book has been widely rejected as not consistent with our Mesora. I don’t mean to disparage the intent of the author, however there is a system of halacha and transmission of mesora that has declared that work as wrong. This is similar to the critique of A Y Kook, who was put in cherem for similar views. If I am mistaken about Eim Habunim Smeicha, please tell me which gedolim endorse the sefer and/or his conclusions.
what are “Chahbonos”?October 26, 2023 1:19 am at 1:19 am #2234550
To Trrolly McTrollface and Some Jew – most of those you quote were no longer alive when Rav Teictel, HY”D, wrote his Sefer. He, too, had been anti-Zionist before the war – but saw the Holocaust as a Siman Min haShamayom that he was wrong. And it would have been rather difficult to get haskamos while in wartime Hungary – which is where he was when he wrote it.
As to HKB”H’s Cheshbonos (sorry about the typo above) – those are for HKB”H to make, not us. I simply believe that He runs the world, and if He doesn’t want something to happen – it doesn’t happen. I don’t believe that Hashgacha Pratis ceased in Eretz Yisrael in 1948 and all that happened there thereafter was from the Sitra Achra, as Satmar and their hangers-on do – and if you can’t see the Yad Hashem in what’s been built here since, you are simply fooling yourself.
None is as blind as he who won’t see.
an Israeli YidOctober 26, 2023 1:20 am at 1:20 am #2234551
DaMoshe > somejew: for your second point, the two items aren’t mutually exclusive.
Indeed, Ramban to Gen 26:29 describes that Avimelech is fearful of Yitzhak because both Avraham and Yitzhak were rav koach with 300 armored men (hm, Eisav would have 400) and many allies – so doing both warfare and politics – in addition to limud and kiruv. And Ramban concludes with Maase avot asu banim – applying to Itzhak, but no doubt, we should also take that to heart.October 26, 2023 1:34 am at 1:34 am #2234559
ujm > Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not;
thanks for extend quotes from the book as well as your commentary. I think you under-estimating impact of the tragic events that were happening at the time – you dismiss them as irrelevant to halakha. Instead, maybe give credit to someone who was responding to events in real time, whether he was always correct or not, in your opinion.
From what you quote, obviously, he is talking from the position of these events that Munkachever, and many others, did not fully foresee. For an example, when R Yochanan b Zakai establishes Yavne – is he contradicting his teachers who upheld Yerushalaim, just because of a little fact that Romans destroyed the latter? same here, he is trying to interpret his Rebbe in light of the events.October 26, 2023 1:34 am at 1:34 am #2234555
One ideological problem with 1920s yishuv was their insistence on agriculture and, related, land acquisition. Sochnut centralized all donor funds and directed to those ideological goals. As a result, there was less industry development (in tel Aviv area) and industry had capacity to provide livelihood. As a result, many non-ideological Yidden did not come before it was too late as there were no jobs available.October 26, 2023 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2234553
> One cow in Palestine is worth more
I don’t think anyone disagrees that there were a lot of things wrong among the Zionists, as well as many non/anti-Zionists of the time (to include bundists, communists and all other isms and parties of the time). I presume if you lived during BM2, you would be against BM because of tzedukim there ..
Akin to cherems on Chasidim, we probably need to look at what is happening now, and also trace current ideas, both positive and negative, to the previous ones. The only difference between 2 issues is that more time passed after Besht than after R Kook, so it is hard to have a fresh look.October 26, 2023 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #2234708
“thanks for extend quotes from the book as well as your commentary.”
You should be thanking the Frumteens moderator.October 26, 2023 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #2234883sechel83Participant
@ujm and whoever
my point is that rather than blaming others we should all look at ourselves at add in torah and mitzvos,
the gedolim who said reasons for tragedies like the tosfos yom tov, had a point, to teach people the importance of not talking in shul, and they did it out of love like it clearly says in torah.
i dont see how blaming anyone on this forum can be with a point to teach anyone to change their ways.
here’s a wrote from the tzemach tzedek in derech mitzvosecha mitzvas ahavas yisroel וזהו מה דסני לך גילוי זה, לחברך לא תעביד שלא תראה חובותיו ופשעיו, הן במילי דעלמא בדברים שבין אדם לחבירו והן במילי דשמיא, ליש ודבר מה אלא יהי’ האהבה שלך לו גדולה כ”כ עד שתכסה על הפשעים….ולכן זהו כל התורה כולה שע”י התכללות נשמות ישראל אלו …באלו והיו לאחדים ממש כאילו היא קומה א’ לבד עי”ז גורם למעלה ענין נפלא שהוא יסוד ותכלית כל התורה כולה
וכשמתכללים נשמות ישראל והיו לאחדים עי”ז נעשה אחד באחד שה’ ית’ מתייחד עם הישראל והיו לאחדים ואין האדם דלעילא רואה חוב לעצמו ואז הוא עובר על כל פשע של הישראלOctober 26, 2023 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2234909ThingsParticipant
You mean like they tortured Jews in Syria and persecute in Tehran?
BTW, What did help Rabbi Kadouri in Baghdad with all major Jewish representatives to renounce Zionism before the Farhoud (where upto a thousand innocent Jews were massacred and with animalistic brutality) instigated by al-Husseoni – pogrom by Hitler’s pal, the leader of Atab Palestine – the atrocities in 5701 Shavuot?November 12, 2023 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2239000LerntminTayrahParticipant
We are confusing the reason and the excuse. The excuse is Zionism. but when marchers say Hitler should have finished the job, it’s clear that if Israel never happened they would still hate us. The pogroms in Europe happened long before the Zionists showed up.
Not a Zionist, but blaming Israel for everything is as dumb as blaming tzniyus.November 12, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2239036
Learnt, indeed. Just see how middle east treats other minorities: nothing, yazidis, kurds,. Sunnis v shias …iraq/ Iran war, syria…
.. I don’t think this is all zionist fault. So, without zionists, Sephardim would have gotten similar treatment by now.
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