September 22, 2008 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #622632
And in any case, the real hakoros “hatov” goes to the US taxpayer for footing the bill while the tzioinim “play state” the way kids “play house”!September 22, 2008 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #622633rabbiofberlinParticipant
The postings of joseph and itzik and others of the same persuasion have more in common with purim torah than reality. I’ll just let joseph and itzik continue their phantasmagoric comments that have absolutely no connection with reality. Hundreds of thousands?? They must be well hidden because I have been to some of these demonstrations and the neturei karat has difficulty getting one hundred people together, let alone hundreds of thousands…The same goes for new york…I have seen the pathetic few imbeciles who appear at Palestinian demonstrations (so much for not reaching out to the sonei yisroel)and you can count them on one hand- OK, maybe two hands but I ‘ll have a few fingers to spare..
You can go on spouting your ridicuius assertions and live in your imaginary world and we, the yidden of Eretz ysroel of all persuasions, will continue building a real state with a real Torah infusion, benefiting millions of Jews and ultimately bringing the ‘geulah shleimah” through the efforts of those dastradly Zionists.September 22, 2008 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #622634
In addition I blame the corrupt framework of the medine for charedi poverty – they could have allowed alternative national service from day one so that charedim could properly enter the workforce – but then the charedi community would resemble the ones in the US, UK, Belgium (of old) etc and probably control too much of the economy of the country given its small size.
And with this control would come real political power for the Torah world instead of the sad system that exists today. It would have meant the end of the present frum parties who really do not do much but perpetrate the system, whether out of a desire to hold on to their own power or out of a sincere desire to make sure “vehaya machaneicha kodosh”
And again – the hakoros hatov for the support of Torah goes to those who bankrolled the medine for so many years – the US taxpayers. This, too, did not have to happen if the medine were not the last Bolshevik outpost in the post-Soviet world.
The medine = Enron. My admiration for those who set up the medine is the same as my admiration for the founders of Enron who had no product whatsoever and fleeced everyone who came into contact with them.September 22, 2008 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #622635rabbiofberlinParticipant
As I commented, Itzik has been smoking something very strange for many years….(Sarah-note; are HIS comments worthy of respect??) Go on ,itzik, spouting your idiotic statements and ,le-achar me-ah ve-esrim, your eyes will finally be opened…September 22, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #622636
Itzik, you and many of your type are utterly confused. On one hand you claim we should have thrown out the tzorerim, meaning you believe the state should be running the land of Israel (even with a heavy hand), on the other hand you believe it is illegitimate and should be dismantled, and certainly never should have been founded. This is certainly a schizophrenic argument.
As far as making a million Jews non-frum, note that the Zionist movement started in Europe, and the leaders were already non-frum long before the state existed. What does that say about the chinuch system of that time in Europe? The haskalah and the reform emerged long before. (I personally believe that it was because there was not enough ahavas yisroel among the various groups even back then, which caused people to go off the derech.)
Gavra, of course nobody is saying we should strive to be secular, what we are saying is that we will be maalin bakodesh as we bring back more and more of our lost brethren to Torah and Mitzvos with ahavah gemurah. The way to start is to stop knocking the secular, and to befriend them and give them a yasher koach for what they have done.September 22, 2008 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #622637
No, I am very clear. IF the state HAS to be, and since it IS at this point, it HAS to be at least for the near future, then it must do what has to be done to protect Jews and stop causing anti-Semitism abroad. It would be better that the state would not exist anymore and if it could be peacefully dismantled without Moshiach that would be perfect.
However, FDR the rosho YMS did not allow Jewish refugees into the US during the way. Therefore, the world felt a medine was necessary even though after the war other countries could have absorbed the refugees. The state also created its own Jewish refugees in the Arab world (and their descendants are leaving E”Y to join their more prosperous brethren in the US, France, Australia etc). Therefore, this travesty occurred but still it does not have to continue in its self-destructive and harmful folly.
The Jews who I had in mind who were secularized were those arriving from countries such as Yemen and Morocco. I know full well that tzioinus was part and parcel of the same folly as Communism, haskalah etc and it was imposed on many who were brought to EY against their will or had no other place to go.
Why are the same proud Sefardi names, in some cases those of our greatest sages (Azoulay, Ben-Atar etc), found on successful business and professional offices in Paris, New York, Florida and LA, …and on the prison rosters of E”Y???September 22, 2008 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #622638
What caused the mass secularization in Europe was false messianism – Jews believed that the ridiculous ideas of the haskila especially as expressed through socialism and communism were the secular replacement for Moshiach chas vesholom.
Reform was not much of a factor outside of Germany until said malignancy was exported to the US. The Jewish communities elsewhere were probably more like the one where I live – all believe or at least identify with the main Jewish community which is frum, some of the wealthiest cannot observe because of social and business obligations but they support frum institutions and would not hear of Reform, some are learning from scratch and settle anywhere along the spectrum of observance from traditional to very charedi; most are traditional and respect Yiddishkeit. That is because they remember what was – from stories handed down, from former refugees who return to spread Yiddishkeit etc.September 22, 2008 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #622639
And after vehicle attack #1, a proud Jewish state would have required all Arabs in East Jerusalem to pass checkpoints or to identify their vehicles – or not to be allowed to drive into Jewish areas except to and from work with proof of same. But our medine must be politically correct – so the one who has to pass a checkpoint is me – for bringing tefillin into Center 1 on my last visit – after all I am a despised dos, and a soft target who the guard knows is as dangerous as a stuffed animal and who will never complain let alone detonate himself chas vesholom.
And needless to say I did not commit anything remotely resembling a terrorist attack or crime (or even put tefillin on) in Center 1. But is this now the THIRD vehicle attack carried out by a resident of Arab East Jerusalem? The victims should have a refuah sheleima.
So should the sick nefashos of those who run the medine.September 22, 2008 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #622640
Itzik, Don’t know what you mean by alternative national service, but do know that chareidim even reject sherut leumui for women. Not logical that govt would do anything to keep chareidim in poverty, since that is a financial burden for the state. They have been scratching their heads to come up with ways to make chareidim more financially self-sufficient. Chareidi poverty bderech hateva would seem to be due to their refusal to learn limudei chol past 8th grade. I don’t know too many jobs these days that do not require a high school education. The good-paying ones require college, as well.September 22, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #622642
So kindly explain the prosperity in charedi communities in the US. True it is not across the board – but there are many national and international businesses owned by charedim who have no secular education. The problem is the forced kollel system – army or kollel are the only choices for most – and that is enshrined in the law. Now some charedim want to serve – and they are not wanted because the army is afraid they will spread Yiddishkeit. This is what happened to most of my friends from E”Y – they were ambivalent toward service and would have gone in if they had to but they were rejected as “lo matim” with no explanation even for abridged service after marriage.
Charedim in poverty is very good for the state. The burden is not all that big because some is picked up by contributions from abroad. Povertu makes the lifestyle look unattractive and keeps the charedi despised by society.September 23, 2008 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #622643
Itzik, just briefly, why in the world do you take it as a given that chareidim should have other options besides kollel or army? Granted, if a boy is learning, then possibly one can argue that the zchus Torah protects the state, and he should not have to serve. So the state gives him the kollel option (Toraso Umanuso). You now want to come along and say that even if a guy is not learning, but is wearing a genuine black hat, that is also a valid reason for him not to serve in the army, and he should be entitled to all the benefits and opportunities of those who do shoulder the burden? (Black Hat Umanuso?)
The solution to chareidi poverty is very simple, then, according to you, just go to the army, and make a nice living afterwards. As far as Lo Matim, I do not know anything about this status, but I doubt that if the state paskens Lo Matim with regard to some individual, then that indivdual is ineligible to go to college or work. Certainly would not make any sense or be fair. (Same for individual with a physical disability who can’t join army, I highly doubt that he is not allowed to go to college or work for the rest of his life.)September 23, 2008 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #622644
These “lo matim” (profil 24 which gives no reason for rejection – actually the precise term is ee-hatama – as opposed to 21 which is mentally unfit and often obtained illegitimately) guys whom I know and see every day are very successful Chabad shluchim abroad. They are healthy, strong men in every sense.
They are lo matim precisely because they are now shluchim; the army was afraid they would influence others toward Yiddishkeit as they now do outside E”Y.
If the army allowed for proper standards of Yiddishkeit (and Nachal Charedi may be the answer for some) then the army would be an option. But the army, besides being an army, is meant to be a social equalizer and indoctrinate certain values. As such, no charedim can serve unless they are very well grounded in Torah from previous intensive study
On the other hand, charedi organizations (Zaka, Ezer MiTzion, Yad Sarah, Ezra Lamarpeh, Meir Panim, Kolel Chabad etc etc), shoulder much of the social service burden after the incompetent government does the bare minimum for the ill, poor and disabled. It is only proper that service in such an organization is counted as national service.
Charedi girls marry early and national service is not an issue. Many Chabad girls, who do not marry quite as early, in fact travel abroad for a year of community service before marriage; they do a lot more than those who fill the often make-work desk jobs in the army and Sherut Leumi (though the latter is still more productive and morally safer than the army for girls).September 24, 2008 1:57 am at 1:57 am #622645d aMember
By the way….
By one of the dinners for Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s Shul, the gabbai got up and said that they will sing our National Anthem. He then started dinging “Ana, ana, ana . . .” a very fitting songSeptember 24, 2008 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #622646
🙂 nice story, Da – I take it you mean Ana avda dekudsha brich hu..and yes that would also be a candidate for our “national anthem”!September 25, 2008 9:14 am at 9:14 am #622647
Itzik, how about one of the Chabad niggunim, like ay ay ay ay ay.September 25, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #622648
The best Chabad niggun that could be an anthem for Yidden is actually in Russian and would not help much!
Nye boyus ya nikavo
Y nye veryu nikamu
Krome B-go odnavo
Nyet nyet nikavo, tolko B-go odnavo
I fear nothing
And I believe no one
Except the one Hashem
No, no, nothing, only the one HashemSeptember 26, 2008 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #622649
I know that niggun very well, although I think you mangled the Russian. I made sure to learn the words from 2 separate Russians so I would sing it right.
By the way, what about
Nye zuriche chlopsi
T’shto snami budyet
Mipoyedem na karchonki
Tami vodke budyet.
Somehow I don’t think a Russian niggun would go over too well for an Israeli anthem.September 26, 2008 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #622650
People flip the tolko and krome in the various stanzas. I used what made sense as I do speak Russian myself. I’m in Ukraine so there has to be someone here who knows the exact correct words – will check again.
I think the title of the thread is the JEWISH national anthem – but indeed it would have to be in laha”k so that all Jews could understand.
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